[_ Old Earth _] Bill Nye v AIG Creation Museum

[Sparkey]

Christians. For most of the world's Christians, the question is open, and always has been so. At least since 570 AD or so.
It was never the consensus of Christians that the days of Genesis were literal 24 hour ones.

May I take what you are saying here to mean that the first Christians, the Disciples, the Apostles and perhaps Jesus (and those prior to 570 AD) believed in the literal 6 day period?

That's what it sounds like to me. That is also what I understand the Orthodox Jews to say even today. I doubt you meant to say it that way.

But of course, most of the world's Christians acknowledge that evolution is consistent with Christianity.

argumentum ad populum

It doesn't mean that rejecting evolution means you don't know Jesus. But if you think that you have to re-interpret Genesis as six literal days, in order to know Him, then you probably should get to know Him better.

I don't think that a literal belief in the Bible is required in every case either but if you think that the bible doesn't mean what it says, then you too should get to know Him better. Thanks for the advice though.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Christians. For most of the world's Christians, the question is open, and always has been so. At least since 570 AD or so.
It was never the consensus of Christians that the days of Genesis were literal 24 hour ones.

May I take what you are saying here to mean that the first Christians, the Disciples, the Apostles and perhaps Jesus (and those prior to 570 AD) believed in the literal 6 day period?

As I said, it was never the consensus. Seems pretty clear to me. Jesus, for example, never said the six days were literal ones. Nor did any of his disciples. And when St. Augustine, who was considered the greatest Christian theologian by almost all Christians, wrote that it was logically impossible for them to be literal days, no one bothered to argue with him.

That is also what I understand the Orthodox Jews to say even today.

Some do. But there's no orthodoxy among the Jews on this point, either.

Barbarian observes:
But of course, most of the world's Christians acknowledge that evolution is consistent with Christianity.

argumentum ad populum

That's what orthodoxy is, after all. I'm just noting the fact. Of course "what most Christians believe" is less persuasive than the evidence, or St. Augustine's analysis. But since they happen to agree...

Barbarian observes:

It doesn't mean that rejecting evolution means you don't know Jesus. But if you think that you have to re-interpret Genesis as six literal days, in order to know Him, then you probably should get to know Him better.​

I don't think that a literal belief in the Bible is required in every case either but if you think that the bible doesn't mean what it says

My point (and St. Augustine's) is that it does mean what it says. His article was (translated) The Literal Meaning of Genesis. That is, "what it actually says." I'm objecting to a modern re-interpretation that clearly violates logic.

, then you too should get to know Him better.

I'm working on it. We all should, in various ways, no?

 

[turnorburn]

Barbarian said:

And when St. Augustine, who was considered the greatest Christian theologian

He's a man same as you and me..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

But an very learned and God-loving Christian. If it was clear to him that Genesis did not mean literal days, then it's very clear that it is not orthodoxy to assert that they were.

It's an open question, but not one that has any bearing on your salvation, unless a literal Genesis becomes an idol for you.

 

[Free]

Do you know how ridicules that sounds in a Christian forum when its been said creationists cause people to lose their faith.. that's nothing more than a lie out of hell.

No, it happens. It may not be the only reason that causes some to lose their faith (most often in post-secondary institutions), but it is a significant one.

Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons say they are Christians is that what you mean because like i said before all the Christians i know believe in a 6 day creation..

Do you know all Christians around the world? Do all these Christians believe in a young earth? Have you read any of the works of Christian scientists that believe in evolution, a non-literal six day creation, or an old earth? Or do you just dismiss all that believe in evolution, a non-literal six day creation, or an old earth as being non-Christian, which would be a serious judgmental error on your part?

 

[turnorburn]

A long time ago a few years ago i made myself abundantly clear on the subject of evolution "its a doctrine of demons"

When a Christian comes down on the side of the written word of God "accepts it by faith" he/she won't be judged.. in my opinion the doctrine of evolution is causing a great division among the brethren.. on the other hand its a great tool for separating the sheep from the goats.. :yes

tob

 

[Free]

A long time ago a few years ago i made myself abundantly clear on the subject of evolution "its a doctrine of demons"

When a Christian comes down on the side of the written word of God "accepts it by faith" he/she won't be judged.. in my opinion the doctrine of evolution is causing a great division among the brethren.. on the other hand its a great tool for separating the sheep from the goats.. :yes

tob

No answers for the rest of my questions?

 

[Barbarian]

Jesus tells us how He will separate the sheep from the goats. And it won't be based on what you believe. It will be based, He says, on what you do.

Just saying...

 

[turnorburn]

According to his very words when he separates the sheep from the goats it will be based on who you know..not what you do

tob

 

[turnorburn]

I'll answer your questions Free if I'm allowed to bring the catholic churches teaching on evolution.. :yes

tob

 

[Barbarian]

According to his very words when he separates the sheep from the goats it will be based on who you know..not what you do

Well, let's take a look...

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:


36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?


38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?


39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?


40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Notice that some of them didn't even know they were doing it for Him. But it doesn't matter to Him. He then goes on to describe those who did not do for others:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is the word of God. It's important for you to listen to it.

 

[Barbarian]

There are many Catholics who accept evolution, which is fine with the Church. There are many Catholics who do not accept evolution, which is also fine with the Church. No problem. If you want to learn more about it, we can discuss it in the proper place.

 

[Free]

Well, let's take a look...

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Notice that some of them didn't even know they were doing it for Him. But it doesn't matter to Him. He then goes on to describe those who did not do for others:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is the word of God. It's important for you to listen to it.

Exactly. It's based on what one does or doesn't do.

Even if we allow that it is based on "who you know," then we can conclude that it isn't based on "what" you know.

 

[Free]

I'll answer your questions Free if I'm allowed to bring the catholic churches teaching on evolution.. :yes

tob

Barbarian is correct that such a discussion is allowed only in the one-on-one forum. And I don't see how that has anything to do with the questions I asked.

 

[turnorburn]

You forgot these Barbarian.. also from the book of Matthew.. where it says what your saying about works then Jesus goes on to say He never knew them

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? "and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[turnorburn]

What specific questions Free could you please repeat them..

Thanks..

tob

 

[Free]

What specific questions Free could you please repeat them..

Thanks..

tob

No, they're up there in the relevant post, on this page even.

 

[turnorburn]

O.k. i see it sorry about that.. yes i know Christians in United States.. Canada.. Europe.. Australia.. Mexico.. "the two in Mexico are deceased" That and i believe we live in a world that.. hates God.. despises God.. textbooks written by people that don't know God can't be trusted "period" I've talked to a Geologist in Washington state that knows Jesus he went on to make a documentary that destroys the doctrine of evolution.. evolution is the mainstay for every communist country world wide.. and again because imo its a doctrine of d _ _ _ _ s.. When somebody presents proof positive immediately the world sends the wolves after them in order to destroy their credibility saying wicked nasty things about people in order to keep Satan's boat afloat.. are those the answers you were looking for..

tob

 

[duari91]

Kent Ham mentioned something important in the debate (which I did watch the entire debate). He said that it is important to present both sides of the coin, especially when tax dollars are involved. If someone wants to teach that the moon is made of cheese, I am okay with it as long as they are teaching it on a private basis. On their own dime. I am not okay with that if tax dollars are involved.

Kent Ham also mentioned Indoctrination. While the word seems extremely negative, it fits perfectly with the current teaching system in schools.

in·doc·tri·nate : to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs
1: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach

2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle

This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Our schools indoctrinate the students. Whether anyone agree's with that or not won't change the fact. If we taught nothing but creation I would say the same thing. In America, both interpretations need to be taught. Which is why Nye was intellectually honest and stated "I learned something tonight." Even if both sides cant agree on most things, we have to be willing to meet in the middle. That includes allowing both sides to be represented.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Kent Ham mentioned something important in the debate (which I did watch the entire debate). He said that it is important to present both sides of the coin, especially when tax dollars are involved. If someone wants to teach that the moon is made of cheese, I am okay with it as long as they are teaching it on a private basis. On their own dime. I am not okay with that if tax dollars are involved.

Kent Ham also mentioned Indoctrination. While the word seems extremely negative, it fits perfectly with the current teaching system in schools.



This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Our schools indoctrinate the students. Whether anyone agree's with that or not won't change the fact. If we taught nothing but creation I would say the same thing. In America, both interpretations need to be taught. Which is why Nye was intellectually honest and stated "I learned something tonight." Even if both sides cant agree on most things, we have to be willing to meet in the middle. That includes allowing both sides to be represented.

There is no problem with etching other theories. The problem is that creation science does not have a solid scientific base. It way to speculative and dependent on explaining how other theories don't stand up. If creationism had a testable model with backed research there would be no problem in teaching it.