Body Soul and Spirit

[stovebolts]

Yesterday I posted some comments without scripture and I just kind of wanted to put it together a little cleaner with a little back ground on how I ended up with these thoughts. I’m not here to debate, that’s why this is in the General section, and not the Apologetics section. Please, if somebody has the urge to bite into somebody here, please resist. I really want this thread to respect each others opinions while creating a safe place for us to discuss some of the things that we think.

A few months ago, I listened to Genesis to Ezra on cd and it really stirred something inside me in the direction of the tabernacle. I wanted to know more detail about the tabernacle so I stopped at the Christian bookstore and got a big visual book on the tabernacle. It was pretty cool so I went looking for a more detailed book. The only book I found was a book called Camping With God (you can google.com it).

Camping with God gives a modest view of the Tabernacle and all of it’s furnishings (I wouldn’t call it conservative, but I wouldn’t call it over the top either). For me, it really brought together a lot of things. I don’t want to taint the book, so I really need to say that what I’m about to post comes from several different sources, including some stuff that I simply put together on my own by connecting the dots. Again, this is not apologetics and I’m not claiming to be right here. Basically, I just want to talk about some stuff.

I started a year ago with Guibox and a debate on the soul. I really delved into Genesis 2:7 seeking answers and I didn’t really understand what I had uncovered until recently. Here’s a piece of the debate:

The question was:
Are there disembodied souls in Sheol?

Your response was NO with the statement that Sheol was the “Grave†and once your body died, your soul perished with the body.
You state that
Body (dust [earth]) + Spirit (breath [God’s]) = Soul (combination of body and spirit)

My response was YES, there are “Souls†in Sheol because I now believe.
Body (dust [earth]) + Spirit (Image [Likeness to God’s Spirit, thought / free will]) + God’s Spirit (Breath) = Complete Soul (combination of dust, human spirit, and God’s Spirit)

Cj, whom I respect, later stated we were both wrong, but never gave an explanation.

So, here it goes, I hope that anyone reading this can follow along. (Really, I am trying to make this as short as possible).

The tabernacle had three areas. It had the outer court (our Body), the inner court (our soul) and the most inner or holy of holies (our spirit). Keep in mind though that what Moses built, was a pattern of the heavenly things that God showed him. (Exodus 25:8-9 and Exodus 25:40) When Solomon built the Temple, again, it was after a pattern (1 Chronicles 28:10-11)

The NT in my opinion shows us that there is a separation of Spirit and Soul in several verses. 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Hebrews 4:12, Romans 8:10, Romans 8:23, 1 Corinthians 5:3

So here we see that man was created with three pieces. The body, the soul and the spirit.

A few things bothered me about Genesis 2:7. For example, image in Hebrew essentially means shadow. Hence, Adam was created in God’s shadow. God as most of us would agree is Triune. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Is this the image in which man was created? Body, Soul and Spirit? Often, we hear scriptures stating that we (Christians) are the Body of the church and are one as a whole (Ephesians 4:4) and if both Moses and David were given a pattern in which to make the tabernacle / temple, what was it a pattern of? Well, heavenly things of course! (somebody could throw a verse here, I really don’t know or can think of one right now)

Furthermore, look what Jesus himself says in John 2:19, Destroy THIS temple. Again, 1 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. And again, Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Anyway, this is about long enough and I haven’t begun to speak about the furniture in the tabernacle and I’d like to get some feedback on these thoughts as well.

 

[GundamZero]

Well, I always that that our bodies now are just a temple for our spiritual nature, that takes after the Lord. Jesus added to the Shema, Deutoronomy 6, when he said we are to love god with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. The Physical body, therefore, would seem to be a separate, at least in a way from our invisible nature.

Someone once told me that the invisible nature, the Spiritual side, has three parts separate from the body. The heart, or the spirit, is what allows us to communicate with God, it keeps us in communion with the church and the Spirit. The soul is where our individual nature lies. It's what sets us apart from each other. The Third part was the mind, which is where the knowledge and will of a person reside. The mind is where the spirit and the flesh meet. Ergo, the mind is attributed to the Body, which is physical conduit of executing our will or the Lord's. Thus we have the old saying "I love you heart, body, and soul." (just a little side thing there)

I don't know if that helps that matter, but it always seemed to give me some insight in to the nature of man in creation. But it does make sense to relate the Triune to the nature that God imparted to us. I just don't know exactly how it all comes together. Hoped this is the feedback you wanted.

 

[stovebolts]

Actually, thanks for the feedback. This board is pretty diverse so I'm hoping that more will have something to add.

I'm kinda rushing today, hopefully I'll get a chance later to respond a bit more,

Thanks!

 

[CatholicXian]

Have you looked into the philosophical usage of the terms at all? The writers of Sacred Scripture were not ignorant of philosophy.

Perhaps not in these precise terms, but the soul is the form of the body (it animates, gives life to the body), the body is matter/material and intimately connected to the soul.. spirit could be given lots of definitions, I suppose, but trying to reflect on the word "spirit" in this context-- we have a spirit, but we are not spirit (like the Angels are)... we worship God in spirit, through our spirit which I would argue is given to the regenerate Christian only (i.e., baptized Christians)

 

[stovebolts]

CatholicXian,
Your post made a lot of sense.

Have you looked into the philosophical usage of the terms at all?

Not really, that’s why I posted here, I didn’t even think about looking into that aspect.

through our spirit which I would argue is given to the regenerate Christian only (i.e., baptized Christians)

You may be on to something here, but it’s not complete and I can’t put my finger on it. [which is ok, remember, I’m not debating and want to enjoy our conversation]
If we look at what God said to Adam and Eve,
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But yet neither Adam or Eve died... or did they? Is it possible that (and I’m treading lightly) is it possible that when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, God, dwelling in them… simply left? The residual effect would be the death of the body?

One of the problems I have with this, is I’m pretty sure that we have our own spirit, perhaps with Adam, God’s spirit was in perfect union with Adams spirit. Two, yet one as a whole? This would (I believe) lead us in the direction of the regenerate Christian and gives us the picture of our perfect union in Christ when we go to heaven.

If we look at John 1:14 and Colossians 3:16 , I believe that if we shift our focus to the words Word and Dwelt at the John passage, and the word dwelt in the Colossians passage, we find that dwelt actually goes back to, to come together, congregate, tent, tabernacled. Interesting huh?

What do you think?

 

[CatholicXian]

I'm sorry my post wasn't very complete-- I know it wasn't, for I intended to add more (I was in a rush, but that's not a good excuse).

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at in the last bit, I have some ideas, but don't want to jump the gun. Sorry this may be a bit short as well.. I'm getting ready to go out for a bit this weekend (and should return tomorrow evening), so I apologize for my shortness... and ask your patience on any further replies I can give.

If we look at what God said to Adam and Eve,
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But yet neither Adam or Eve died... or did they? Is it possible that (and I’m treading lightly) is it possible that when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, God, dwelling in them… simply left? The residual effect would be the death of the body?

I agree very much with this. I don't have my Hebrew in front of me, but I'm pretty sure this is the verse where a literal translation would read "die die" or "die the death". God didn't mean bodily death, but spiritual death. It was a spiritual death when Eve and Adam ate of the forbidden tree which resulted then in a fundamental weakness of their nature (as it was originally created and intended) and this subsequent weakness was passed on to all of us (Catholicism would call this weakness Original Sin, concupiscience/disordered will, etc.)

One of the problems I have with this, is I’m pretty sure that we have our own spirit, perhaps with Adam, God’s spirit was in perfect union with Adams spirit. Two, yet one as a whole? This would (I believe) lead us in the direction of the regenerate Christian and gives us the picture of our perfect union in Christ when we go to heaven.

If we look at John 1:14 and Colossians 3:16 , I believe that if we shift our focus to the words Word and Dwelt at the John passage, and the word dwelt in the Colossians passage, we find that dwelt actually goes back to, to come together, congregate, tent, tabernacled. Interesting huh?

What do you think?

This is where I'm a little hazy on what you are trying to say... Two, yet one, etc. Perhaps you could clarify a bit more?

 

[stovebolts]

CatholicXian
Thanks for your reply, please, no need to apologize. Honest. As far as being in a hury, I completly understand. BTW, I've got to run and probably won't get back online until Monday. I made a promise with my family that when I'm home for the weekend, I'm home and I try not to take time away from them by gettig sucked in the computer. besides, I have a 106 year old house that keeps me very busy :-?

I want you to know that I have many ideas in my head, but I don't really have a direction. That's why I'm so vague because each diretion there seems to be a dead end somewhere down the line. Make sence?

As far as the two to one thing. What I'm getting at is this. Do we really have our own spirit which is seperate from God's spirit and in the death of Adam, was that death the parting of God's spirit leaving our spirit? When I speak about the union we will have in heaven, I think about our (God's and Mine) spirits becoming one, such as a marriage. At this point, do we loose our spirit and take on God's fullness in spirit?

I'm really biting at both ends... does this make sense?

Anyway, I gotta run or I'm going to be late. I look forward to reading your response if you will allow me the honor.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

Ok, I'm geeked! LOL

So I'm driving home right? And I'm thinking about Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I did an intense study of this scripture back when and what I found were some pretty weird things. Look at the word living at the end. Strongs comes back as 2416 chay. But when I look that passage up in the hebrew text (I user a program called Davar) it comes back as CHYYM. Now, chay is singular, yet the original texts read chyym, which is plural!! That has bugged me for so long now! I used to think that it was plural because Eve came out of Adam, and I think that's still part of the case... But...

What if this chyym means a combining of God's spirit with our spirit! Bingo, that would solve the question of if our spirit was seperate from God's. It would also explain the union between God and Man after the judgment right? I'm just thinking out loud. Any comments?

Also, one word in 2:7 that has also bugged me is Breath or strongs 5397 Neshamah Notice:
from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:--blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit

Here's 5395, Nasham
a primitive root; properly, to blow away, i.e. destroy:--destroy.

It kinda ties into dieing to self...

Am I nuts? LOL

 

[phatcatholic]

stevebolts..............i admire your willingness and openness to learn new things regarding this subject. i think what will be most helpful is to define some terms. "mind", "body", "soul", "spirit"........these are philosphical / metaphysical terms that we are using, so i personally think that it is important to investigate how these terms are understood w/in the Christian metaphysical tradition. here is a quick summary from a thomisitc metaphysician: Souls and Spirits. if u don't care, read this and let me know if it is helpful to you.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

 

[Geo]

The only time the three are mentioned in one sentence in the Bible:

1 Thessalonians 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly;
and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless
unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

it talks about the 'whole sanctification'. Most Christians never look into
the separation of spirit and soul, simply because they don't understand
the significance. We have to read some of the 'old guys' that digged into
this subject to see why it's so important:

Soul and Spirit by Jessie Penn Lewis
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/j ... irit.c.htm

The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/n ... 68cont.htm

The spiritual man is the one book everyone should have read but didn't,
it explains in every detail why there are so many carnal christians today
and so few spritual ones, if any.

1 Corinthians 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

stevebolts..............i admire your willingness and openness to learn new things regarding this subject. i think what will be most helpful is to define some terms. "mind", "body", "soul", "spirit"........these are philosphical / metaphysical terms that we are using, so i personally think that it is important to investigate how these terms are understood w/in the Christian metaphysical tradition. here is a quick summary from a thomisitc metaphysician: Souls and Spirits. if u don't care, read this and let me know if it is helpful to you.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

Hello Pax and thank you for your kind response.

While I'm not familiar with the thomistitc view, I did read the article that you sent. I'll be very honest, and please, don't condemn me or look down on me for my view, but I didn't see any scripture to back any of it up. What I'm looking for Pax, is scriptural reference to back up some of the stuff that most of us were taught and take for granted. Know what I mean? I'm not out to create any kind of new doctrine or anything and I know I'm not the only one in the world that has thought of this stuff.

Spirit
A spirit is what does not depend on matter for its existence. The human soul is a spirit but by nature a spirit which gives life to a body. Hence it is not a spirit in every respect. Being the formal principle of a living body, it is also a soul: the only soul which is also a spirit. But a pure spirit is one which is not a soul.

I don't even know where to start. In the chart the guy gives at the top of the page, he starts off with God and Angels, wich is labeld pure and everything else is un-pure. That makes his statement read that a pure spirit is either God, or an Angel... Why in the world does he put the bolded statment in with the human soul / spirit?

I've dabbled in philosophy and even scientology and I've been de-programming myself for years through the pure word of God. Hence, I keep Colossians 2:8 extreemly close at times and test scriptures time and time again (2 timothy 3:16). I don't mind going outside of the Bible for information and I do so often, but I've got to be shown where it agrees in Scripture. Genesis 2:7 is the very creation of Man. Break it down to hebrew and you will be very surprised at what you start to find. This, is one of the things I'm talking about. Furthermore, if we look at mind, I think that would fall in a sub catagory of soul and not as a seperate entity.

Now, maybe there is scriptural reference to the page you sent that is beyond my current understanding and hidden in plain sight under some rock that I havn't found to oncover yet, it would just be nice to see how he comes to the conclusions that he does. Make sense? In short, Scripture defines scripture. From there, doctrines are built. I'm not looking for doctrine, I'm looking for raw truth which the doctrine was built.

That being said, I do thank you for posting. I would ask that you find the scripture that backs up the quote from that page and post it here. Thank you much for your time.

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/j ... er%201.htm

Again, Pember writes concerning the creation of man, and how the tripartite being was formed-" God first moulded the senseless frame, and then breathed into itthe ' breath of lives ' (Genesis 2:7. The original is in the plural)," and this " may refer to the fact that the inbreathing of God produced a two-fold life-sensual (in the meaning of pertaining to the senses) and spiritual...." He adds, in a footnote, that possibly the meaning of the use of the plural in the " breath of lives ", is that " the inbreathing of God became the spirit, and at the same time by its action upon the body, produced the soul ".

Thank you Geo! I'm NOT NUTS!!

Unfortunatly, I've just ran out of time. I will however persue the links you sent hopefully on Monday.

 

[GundamZero]

As far as the two to one thing. What I'm getting at is this. Do we really have our own spirit which is seperate from God's spirit and in the death of Adam, was that death the parting of God's spirit leaving our spirit? When I speak about the union we will have in heaven, I think about our (God's and Mine) spirits becoming one, such as a marriage. At this point, do we loose our spirit and take on God's fullness in spirit?

I can't say I fully understand what God meant when He said eating of the tree would mean death, but perhaps this would help put it into context.
In the Apostle's Creed(not scripture) it was thought necessary to put in the words "He Descended to Hell." The meaning of this phrase has been disputed for a long time, since no one can seem to agree whether or not Jesus actually went to hell. The debate arises from a passage in 1 Peter, 4:6, and the fact that Jesus, on the cross said to the thief, "This day will be with me in paradise." But to be sure, the "Hell" that most people think of, the lake of burning sulfur, won't come to be until the Revelation. So, bare with me, what other context might this relate to? Well, death in the Hebrew is often referred to as an actual place, Shoal, a place that is separate from God. So, if this is a separation from God, Hell, in a pre-Revelation context, might be comparable merely to separation from God. It is therefore thought that at calvary, the Son was at some point separated from the Father (as he says "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?") So, if we take that into account, we can call death simply the separation from God.

From there, we can understand not only the spiritual death, but also the physical deterioration of the Creation. Since we don't know how long it was between the beginning and when Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden, we might say that there was no evidence of any sort of death, in as much as, there were no natural disasters, no earthquakes, no tornadoes, or other natural disasters. Where does this all fit in?

When God left Mankind, He, in a way, left the Creation. Can we think of some places where the total absence of God's praise has caused the physical culmination of death? Sodom and Gomorrah are an example. And think of the conditions of the world today. Earthquakes hitting highly anti-Gospel regions. Jesus said "If they do not praise me, the rocks will cry out." This is an example God gives us to show us how it is with the spirit of man. Without the Lord's truth being proclaimed, Creation deteriorates and dies. Without the Lord's truth of His lordship over our souls being proclaimed, our souls die.

I hope I could help with the idea of death. That's all I can do from a scriptural context. But I'm afraid I can't do the same with the union of the Christian's Spirit and God's.

But perhaps some fundamental truths nay help in that matter. We know that the Lord is infinite. And we know that sin is falling short of the Glory of God. Therefore, as God is infinite and has infinite glory, even when we are redeemed we cannot fully reflect God fully. Therefore, the fellowship of His children, who will fully know and be fully known, will never be completely epual to, and never collectively match equality with God. But then, that's where we can find the separation of God's Spirit and ours. When we unite with the Lord, each of us will know only as our spirit's...capacity, if you will, allows us. Therefore, what we know will be limited. It will make us special among all the family to reflect just a tiny bit of God's infinity through our finite spirits. But as we are fully united with God and the Family of God, we will no more and more intimately, as if we know as one spirit, though we are many.

And that, by the way, is a wonderful thing to know about Heaven. Some people who don't believe think that this "eternal bliss" will be fake and boring after a while. But the fact the God is Infinite means that we will be exploring his Glories forever and ever. Life will always be new. There will be new things to no, new ways to show love, new songs, new ways to worship, new ways to obey, and, following the example of the Father Almighty, new ways to create, to form something new. And so the individuals be like jewels on a crown, part of the same dazzling object but each displaying a spectacular perspective of the Glory of God. Ever changing from glory to Glory, but never changing from Supreme Glory. It is one of the reasons I like to say that God is the most perfect and wonderful paradox, you just can't grasp who the Lord really is.

Well, I've run out of breath, as I'm sure you're steadily running out of patience. I hope my post was more insightful than confusing.

 

[phatcatholic]

Hello Pax and thank you for your kind response.

actually, my name is "phatcatholic" ;) or, you can call me "phat" :D

What I'm looking for Pax, is scriptural reference to back up some of the stuff that most of us were taught and take for granted. Know what I mean?

yea, ur right, i apologize. i wasn't sensitive enough to my audience. in defense of the article, since it was an elucidation of how metaphysicians understand the soul and the spirit, and not a defense for this understanding, there were no scripture verses included. you'll notice tho that in aquinas' Summa, where he sets about both to explain and defend what we believe, a vast number of scripture verses are cited. i think aquinas had the whole bible memorized :o

[quote:99b79]Spirit
A spirit is what does not depend on matter for its existence. The human soul is a spirit but by nature a spirit which gives life to a body. Hence it is not a spirit in every respect. Being the formal principle of a living body, it is also a soul: the only soul which is also a spirit. But a pure spirit is one which is not a soul.

I don't even know where to start. In the chart the guy gives at the top of the page, he starts off with God and Angels, wich is labeld pure and everything else is un-pure. That makes his statement read that a pure spirit is either God, or an Angel... Why in the world does he put the bolded statment in with the human soul / spirit?[/quote:99b79]
well, what he is saying here is that there are spirits that exist of themselves and there are spirits who's function is to unite with a body and animate it, make it alive. an angel is of the former, a soul of the latter. see what i mean? also, this distinction is important in our understanding of the human being b/c we want to say that there is a spiritual part of man w/o saying that man is made up of angels.

That being said, I do thank you for posting. I would ask that you find the scripture that backs up the quote from that page and post it here. Thank you much for your time.

this will take some research on my part, so i'll have to get back to u on this. if i don't respond w/in the next couple of days, send me a message or an email and remind me.

thanks again for being open to what i have to say (sometimes people like you are hard to find!)

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Pax and thank you for your kind response.

actually, my name is "phatcatholic" ;) or, you can call me "phat" :D

Boy, did your parents ever have a sense of humor :wink: Good to meet ya Mr. (?) Phat, I'll look forward to seeing your reply :smt117 [I just think the whole chicken thing is cute, don't read much into it :wink: ]


GundamZero,
Thanks for your reply. As a whole, I agree with the direction you took and I appreciate the time you spent witing it. Dont worry if it's too long, I don't really mind because this is a topic I am most enjoying at the moment. I started a response to you this morning and it took up the better half of page two in MS Word. That being said, I ended up in a corner and scraped the whole document

To give you an idea what direction I went, I referenced Psalm 80 with what Asaph had to say about God's Glory shining upon our faces (Crossing with 1 Chronicles 15 and 16 which is were I got side tracked : ) opposed to where Christ will turn His face away from some (2 Thess 1:9) I was writing about the Mercy Seat and how the Cherubim reflected the Cherubim that guarded the Garden of Eden.

Anyway, I couldn't find a way to tie it all back together with death directly, but like I said, I liked your direction. Any further thoughts?

Geo,
I really need to read the links you posted. I'm sure I'll find a wealth of information there.

 

[CP_Mike]

Hi Stovebolts,
I have some notes on biblical anthropology you may want to read; please send me your email address and I will send you a copy which will answer all your questions.

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks Mike, You should have a PM

Jeff

 

[GundamZero]

Took me a while to get back here...

Well, as far as death being the total oblideration of a spirit into oblivian, I don't think a spirit can be totally destroyed, at least not in any way that God intended. The act of killing something means taking life from it. Live is defined by an inclination to growth and renewal. From life, which only comes from God, comes all the physical ramifications of living. Indicatively, from God comes all the true aspects of life: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-control(the obedience of the soul to the Creator out of the free will of the created, which is love for God.) These are better known as the fruits of the spirit. A tree is often used in scripture to define life, and Christ himself is the Root and Offspring of that life. Therefore, anyone not in Christ is not part of that life, and if it is not living, it is dead.

As to the destruction of the Spirit into oblivian, I don't know. We know that the sinner not redeemded will surely die, but what context does death have in existance? If something dies Spiritually, does it cease to be, or stop living?

 

[mutzrein]

Took me a while to get back here...

Well, as far as death being the total oblideration of a spirit into oblivian, I don't think a spirit can be totally destroyed, at least not in any way that God intended. The act of killing something means taking life from it. Live is defined by an inclination to growth and renewal. From life, which only comes from God, comes all the physical ramifications of living. Indicatively, from God comes all the true aspects of life: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-control(the obedience of the soul to the Creator out of the free will of the created, which is love for God.) These are better known as the fruits of the spirit. A tree is often used in scripture to define life, and Christ himself is the Root and Offspring of that life. Therefore, anyone not in Christ is not part of that life, and if it is not living, it is dead.

As to the destruction of the Spirit into oblivian, I don't know. We know that the sinner not redeemded will surely die, but what context does death have in existance? If something dies Spiritually, does it cease to be, or stop living?

I digress - but something to consider for a moment . . . a different premise.
If man is not born with a spirit then much of scripture would take on new meaning. So consider this:

Being dead in trespasses & sins would mean just that. With no spirit, man would indeed be dead with no hope of life unless it be given him by God.

Preaching the gospel to one who is perishing would indeed be foolishness to them. What's the point?

So when John 3:16 talks about those who believe in Him, not perishing, but having eternal life - that is exactly what it means.

Being born again, would really mean being born of the spirit - being given life. And I don't mean at the resurrection.

When Jesus said, flesh gives birth to flesh & Spirit gives birth to spirit it really is spiritual birth.

And when Jesus said I have come that you might have life - it really is life. Not just God's spirit indwelling man's.

And again Jesus said of those who have eternal life - they have crossed over from death to life.

So when scripture talks about those who are judged, it would not be talking about those who have not received life, because they would ultimately perish. It would be talking about those to whom God has granted the gift of life. These will therefore be judged according to the talents they received. These will be the wise & foolish virgins. These will be the sheep and goats.
Is it any wonder Jesus spoke in parables? How could one who is perishing understand them since in truth they speak of the kingdom of God - not of those of this world.

 

[stovebolts]

Being born again, would really mean being born of the spirit - being given life. And I don't mean at the resurrection.

When Jesus said, flesh gives birth to flesh & Spirit gives birth to spirit it really is spiritual birth.

I like this. Spirit gives birth to spirit... It seems to support that we were created (gen 2:7) with a spirit.

Where does faith come from? Wouldn't faith have to come from our spirit and didn't God "Breath" His spirit into us?

Things that make me go hmm....