Calvinism: are there more gods than One?

[Guest]

Not to mention that it isn't the command itself that is in question as proof of free will, rather it is the ISSUE of the command.

In other words, what logic is there to issue a command if the outcome is already decided or pre-ordained.

It would be illogical for God to issue a command or author a command or "Choose" without the recipient having the ability to actually make a choice.

 

[destiny]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Either 'whosoever' means what it says, or it is a lie.

 

[mutzrein]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Either 'whosoever' means what it says, or it is a lie.

A thought Destiny. What do you say 'enables' a person to believe?

 

[destiny]

A thought Destiny. What do you say 'enables' a person to believe?

The spirit of the Lord. He prepared my heart, brought me to the end of myself...and then revealed Himself to me.


Salvation is for whosoever will hear the call on their life, and then leave the old behind...In so doing you become chosen.

"Many are called (yet refuse to respond) ....few are chosen" (these are the ones who leave the old behind)

 

[Solo]

The spirit of the Lord. He prepared my heart, brought me to the end of myself...and then revealed Himself to me.


Salvation is for whosoever will hear the call on their life, and then leave the old behind...In so doing you become chosen.

"Many are called (yet refuse to respond) ....few are chosen" (these are the ones who leave the old behind)

Does the "old" disappear, or does the "old" remain?

 

[stovebolts]

Does the "old" disappear, or does the "old" remain?

It is transformed...

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 1:22-23 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

 

[Solo]

It is transformed...

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 1:22-23 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

When is the old man transformed, and if you are correct, why do believers still sin?

Also if the old man is transformed, how does a believer, who is now a new creature, lose his salvation?

 

[destiny]

It has been my experience that the closer I am to God through relationship, the less I sin in the flesh. "Feed the spirit and the flesh will starve".
Might I still stumble and sin? Yes, but I will also be quick to turn from sin because of my love for the Lord.

Galatians 5
5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh.

 

[Solo]

It has been my experience that the closer I am to God through relationship, the less I sin in the flesh. "Feed the spirit and the flesh will starve".
Might I still stumble and sin? Yes, but I will also be quick to turn from sin because of my love for the Lord.

Galatians 5
5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh.

I am in total agreement with you.

The Word of God will keep you from sin, and sin will keep you from the Word of God.

We continue in our Christian walk to have the battle between the old man and the new man. When we walk in the spirit we have subjected our old man to the law of God; when we walk in the flesh, we grieve the Spirit and the old man lives subjects us to sin.

According to Romans 7 we are sold under sin and in our flesh dwells no good thing. Thank Jesus Christ for his atonement so that we can be born again into the new creature bound for glory at His return.

 

[mutzrein]

The spirit of the Lord. He prepared my heart, brought me to the end of myself...and then revealed Himself to me.


Salvation is for whosoever will hear the call on their life, and then leave the old behind...In so doing you become chosen.

"Many are called (yet refuse to respond) ....few are chosen" (these are the ones who leave the old behind)

Sorry about the gaps / delays in my responses destiny - other commitments :-?

Anyway - so may I just understand your thoughts on this a bit more.

Are you saying that the called are those who hear the gospel but REFUSE to respond. And the chosen are those who hear the gospel and CHOOSE to respond?

 

[destiny]

Sorry about the gaps / delays in my responses destiny - other commitments :-?

Anyway - so may I just understand your thoughts on this a bit more.

Are you saying that the called are those who hear the gospel but REFUSE to respond. And the chosen are those who hear the gospel and CHOOSE to respond?

Yes
The whole context of the parable of the wedding banquet shows us the the difference between the invited and the uninvited.
To me it is a clear choice to respond or not respond.

Matthew 22

1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.â€Â’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and[a] cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are called but few are chosen.â€Â

The next question is, what is the wedding garment?

 

[mutzrein]

The next question is, what is the wedding garment?

Righteousness. It is the righteousness of Christ.

 

[stovebolts]

According to Romans 7 we are sold under sin and in our flesh dwells no good thing. Thank Jesus Christ for his atonement so that we can be born again into the new creature bound for glory at His return.

How do you reconcile the tension between Romans 7 and Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Now, to quickly attempt to answer your questions:

When is the old man transformed, and if you are correct, why do believers still sin?

1. We are in a state of constant transformation in simplistic terms.
2. Because of our sinful nature, which again is bound in tension. I believe Jay T showed this tension very well in another thread using Job as an example.

Question: Solo? Do you still sin? A simple Yes or No is all that is required.

Also if the old man is transformed, how does a believer, who is now a new creature, lose his salvation?

I suppose the toughest question may be, "Who" has been truly transformed as there is a difference between knowing God, and Experienceing God. Even in Calvinism, they do not claim to "Know" who is the Elect and who isn't... So why judge in the first place? Isn't it better to discern?

 

[Solo]

According to Romans 7 we are sold under sin and in our flesh dwells no good thing. Thank Jesus Christ for his atonement so that we can be born again into the new creature bound for glory at His return.

How do you reconcile the tension between Romans 7 and Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

I see no tension between Romans 7 and Colossians 1:24. I see that Paul recognizes that walking in the flesh accomplishes absolutely nothing for the Kingdom of God, but that walking in the spirit by putting the flesh in subjection to the spirit allows one to do just as Paul did. He put up with much hardship in the flesh while walking in the spirit.

What tension do you feel needs reconciling between Romans 7 and Colossians 1:24?

Now, to quickly attempt to answer your questions:

When is the old man transformed, and if you are correct, why do believers still sin?

1. We are in a state of constant transformation in simplistic terms.
2. Because of our sinful nature, which again is bound in tension. I believe Jay T showed this tension very well in another thread using Job as an example.

According to your answer (1.) can I assume that the old man is not transformed immediately but still exists as the old man? And when does the old man become totally transformed?

Your answer (2.) is too vague with little or no understanding to me. Please explain.

Question: Solo? Do you still sin? A simple Yes or No is all that is required.

Yes.

Question: Stove Bolts? Do you still sin? A simple Yes or No is all that is required.

Also if the old man is transformed, how does a believer, who is now a new creature, lose his salvation?

I suppose the toughest question may be, "Who" has been truly transformed as there is a difference between knowing God, and Experienceing God. Even in Calvinism, they do not claim to "Know" who is the Elect and who isn't... So why judge in the first place? Isn't it better to discern?

Your statement is confusing, but I believe that I know what you are saying. You are having a problem with the old man, new man scenario because one can not be a new man and still lose his salvation. The concept of one being an old man (unsaved) and then being born again into a new creature (saved), and then losing that salvation becoming an old man again (unsaved), then according to Hebrews 6 one cannot renew again to repentance as the Son of God is crucified afresh and put to an open shame. O me oh my, what do we do????

A born again, born from above Christian cannot lose ones salvation. They have been justified by the blood of Jesus Christ, and are currently being sanctified (transformed) until that day when they will be glorified in Christ Jesus when He returns.

When one becomes a new creature, you have stated that the old man is gradually transformed. You have not stated when this old man is completely transformed but you allude to the statement " 'Who' has been truly transformed".

When does one become "truly transformed"?

Can one lose their Salvation when one becomes "truly transformed"?

 

[destiny]

Can one lose their Salvation when one becomes "truly transformed"?

I know you weren't asking me, but I thought I would answer for 'me'.
Unfrotunately they didn't get to me when I was young enough in the Lord to indoctrinate me into osas'd :-D

A person can't stay truly transformed without renewing the mind daily; without (maintaining) our relationship with the Lord we gradually start living according to the flesh.
After we stay in this condition over a period of time, we backslide; then without repentance we can harden our hearts towards God and fall away.
The courtship and marriage between a man and a woman is such a great example of this...

You go through a courtship where you fall deeply in love, and nothing can make you turn and walk away from what you've found. Nobody has to 'force' you to love this great thing you've found. (This is grace, you did nothing to deserve this)
But if you don't keep maintaining and perservering in this relationship it can grow cold down the road; then you can become totally distracted and pulled away by other things, and fall away.

The next thing you know you have divorced your first love.

To me, this is totally biblical

...OSAS makes absolutely NO sense to me, other verses have ot be considered in their true context.

PS...In case the next question is: At what point does a person lose their salvation? The answer is: I don't know, that is Gods business. :D

 

[lovely]

This is such an intersting discussion. I find myself agreeing on some points with everyone, and disagreeing in the same manner.

I do believe that God is sovereign on all matters, and that Jesus has been given some, by the Father, to be His. These have ears to hear, and eyes to see, and so their "seeing will" is at liberty and able, to follow Him on the narrow foot path that requires them to deny themselves (not feed the flesh, but walk worthy in obedience and good works), take up their cross (I think this is the process of transformation, or sanctification through trials and tribulation here from the world...including church organizations...and also encouragement and teaching of the God through the Word, and the Holy Spirit), and follow Him (Walk in the fruits of the Spirit, and not in canarlity or legalism, but genuine love developed through faith and trust in God's Will).

These are those who will believe. and practice, true daily repentence, and be washed in the blood of the Lamb by grace through their faith which involves the daily practice of Holy living according to the commands of God. This is grace, and if it is genuine it will always lead to the maturity of the believer, and this is not something you loose...nothing can separate this person who is called, chosen, full of faith, teachable, given the Holy Spirit, discipled by God, obeying God's commands, having a heart with good soil, and walking in the Spirit doing good deeds that are according to God's will and in line with the kingdom of God...this person will do the things God requires, the daily repentance, and renewing of the mind, and walk worthy in His strength apart from legalsim and self-righteousness. They will be kept until that day, and the pitfalls that may deceive some, or cause them to fall away, will not penetrate these faithful ones. God knows them, and has known them, and it is not for us to know...except that we see their fruits. So, if someone is in one of these stages, we will not know as God does, nor should we...it is up to us to share truth and love, walk in obedience, and trust God to handle the rest.

Our tribulation, and the Kingdom of God, are all in the here and now in us for the purpose of this work in the believer to be a light, and to illuminate the path for their brother and sisters. This comes through relationships, and the expression of the fruits, but not through vain disputes. Christ came to bring this to us as a free gift to be shared truthfull and lovingly, and not superficially. This is true evangelism, and it is relational between the Father and His Son, and after Christ's sacrifice, His elect, and between these brothers and sisters here as they share the truth and love of the Gospel to one another...this is all a work of the Holy Spirit.

Good discussion, and the Lord bless all of you.

 

[destiny]

lovely, I very much agree with this..

These are those who will believe. and practice, true daily repentence, and be washed in the blood of the Lamb by grace through their faith which involves the daily practice of Holy living according to the commands of God. This is grace, and if it is genuine it will always lead to the maturity of the believer, and this is not something you loose...nothing can separate this person who is called, chosen, full of faith, teachable, given the Holy Spirit, discipled by God, obeying God's commands, having a heart with good soil, and walking in the Spirit doing good deeds that are according to God's will and in line with the kingdom of God...this person will do the things God requires, the daily repentance, and renewing of the mind, and walk worthy in His strength apart from legalsim and self-righteousness. They will be kept until that day, and the pitfalls that may deceive some, or cause them to fall away, will not penetrate these faithful ones.

 

[Solo]

This is such an intersting discussion. I find myself agreeing on some points with everyone, and disagreeing in the same manner.

I do believe that God is sovereign on all matters, and that Jesus has been given some, by the Father, to be His. These have ears to hear, and eyes to see, and so their "seeing will" is at liberty and able, to follow Him on the narrow foot path that requires them to deny themselves (not feed the flesh, but walk worthy in obedience and good works), take up their cross (I think this is the process of transformation, or sanctification through trials and tribulation here from the world...including church organizations...and also encouragement and teaching of the God through the Word, and the Holy Spirit), and follow Him (Walk in the fruits of the Spirit, and not in canarlity or legalism, but genuine love developed through faith and trust in God's Will).

These are those who will believe. and practice, true daily repentence, and be washed in the blood of the Lamb by grace through their faith which involves the daily practice of Holy living according to the commands of God. This is grace, and if it is genuine it will always lead to the maturity of the believer, and this is not something you loose...nothing can separate this person who is called, chosen, full of faith, teachable, given the Holy Spirit, discipled by God, obeying God's commands, having a heart with good soil, and walking in the Spirit doing good deeds that are according to God's will and in line with the kingdom of God...this person will do the things God requires, the daily repentance, and renewing of the mind, and walk worthy in His strength apart from legalsim and self-righteousness. They will be kept until that day, and the pitfalls that may deceive some, or cause them to fall away, will not penetrate these faithful ones. God knows them, and has known them, and it is not for us to know...except that we see their fruits. So, if someone is in one of these stages, we will not know as God does, nor should we...it is up to us to share truth and love, walk in obedience, and trust God to handle the rest.

Our tribulation, and the Kingdom of God, are all in the here and now in us for the purpose of this work in the believer to be a light, and to illuminate the path for their brother and sisters. This comes through relationships, and the expression of the fruits, but not through vain disputes. Christ came to bring this to us as a free gift to be shared truthfull and lovingly, and not superficially. This is true evangelism, and it is relational between the Father and His Son, and after Christ's sacrifice, His elect, and between these brothers and sisters here as they share the truth and love of the Gospel to one another...this is all a work of the Holy Spirit.

Good discussion, and the Lord bless all of you.

Lovely,
You may have answered this in that past and I do not remember, but what are your thoughts on this Scripture that speak of being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted F2 in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:12-14

I would also like your thoughts on the individual who was commiting fornication to the point that his practice was not even named among the "Gentiles".

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5

 

[lovely]

Lovely,
You may have answered this in that past and I do not remember, but what are your thoughts on this Scripture that speak of being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted F2 in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:12-14

Hi solo,

I believe that this is the Holy Spirit living in us, it signifies that...1. God Owns us (Sealed as His, adopted, or, my favorite, purchased, elected us), 2. He is our Authority to whom we answer only (Obedient to the Law on our hearts, a genuine heart of repentance, a desire to not be adulterous, taught by His Holy Spirit, etc.), 3. that it is a genuine salvation (belief that produces fruit, transformation, and is characterized by loving God's commands and Truth, thy circumcision of the heart), and 4. that it is permanent, or secure, in it's nature...based on the other three truly taking place. In this manner, we are set apart, and sealed by the Holy Spirit which is our guarantee of our inheritance...this is the work of the Father, through the Son, by the Holy Spirit. We are in covenant with God as His children.

I would also like your thoughts on the individual who was commiting fornication to the point that his practice was not even named among the "Gentiles".

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5

I believe that this person, that Paul was referring to, was lawless, and unrepentant, and possibly not a believer having the Holy Spirit...as marked by his obvious unrepentantance...which was being flaunted before, and tolerated by, the body. How can the body keep the feast with leaven in the house! This was Paul's message, and he was basically saying that they needed to remove this immorality, and the one practicing, from the body...He was also ashamed that the church was so extremely presumptous about allowing it, that they were not being grieved over this person's sin, and possibly his soul being lost. The giving him over to satan part was to protect the church from the example of lawlessness, or becoming defiled, and to impart judgement by which the person could either be truly saved, come to repentance over his sin, or continue on his path of destruction as an unbeliever...it was best for the church, and the unrepentant congregant basically. I do not know, obviously, if this person was restored through repentance because he was sealed, or if this person was an unrepentant unbeliever who continued on his path, and was truly given over to his sin, but I do think that Paul is exampling God's discernment before us...to put obedience to God above our own pride and sentiment...and it will benefit all. We don't know the heart, but the sin must be addressed for the sake of the church...the separation was needed, and should have been done quickly for the sake of the church, and the one in sin. The actual fate of this individual is in the hands of God alone.

Solo, if you have something else to show me, or point out, I am happy to hear it. The Lord bless you.

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Solo,
Yes, I still Sin

As far as the rest... maybe for another day just because I'm kinda burned out and though you say I'm a bit confusing, perhaps I'm just not good at articulating.