Calvinism: are there more gods than One?

[Solo]

Lovely,
You may have answered this in that past and I do not remember, but what are your thoughts on this Scripture that speak of being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted F2 in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:12-14

Hi solo,

I believe that this is the Holy Spirit living in us, it signifies that...1. God Owns us (Sealed as His, adopted, or, my favorite, purchased, elected us), 2. He is our Authority to whom we answer only (Obedient to the Law on our hearts, a genuine heart of repentance, a desire to not be adulterous, taught by His Holy Spirit, etc.), 3. that it is a genuine salvation (belief that produces fruit, transformation, and is characterized by loving God's commands and Truth, thy circumcision of the heart), and 4. that it is permanent, or secure, in it's nature...based on the other three truly taking place. In this manner, we are set apart, and sealed by the Holy Spirit which is our guarantee of our inheritance...this is the work of the Father, through the Son, by the Holy Spirit. We are in covenant with God as His children.

I am in total agreement with you on this matter. Thank you very much for your thorough response.

I would also like your thoughts on the individual who was commiting fornication to the point that his practice was not even named among the "Gentiles".

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5

I believe that this person, that Paul was referring to, was lawless, and unrepentant, and possibly not a believer having the Holy Spirit...as marked by his obvious unrepentantance...which was being flaunted before, and tolerated by, the body. How can the body keep the feast with leaven in the house! This was Paul's message, and he was basically saying that they needed to remove this immorality, and the one practicing, from the body...He was also ashamed that the church was so extremely presumptous about allowing it, that they were not being grieved over this person's sin, and possibly his soul being lost. The giving him over to satan part was to protect the church from the example of lawlessness, or becoming defiled, and to impart judgement by which the person could either be truly saved, come to repentance over his sin, or continue on his path of destruction as an unbeliever...it was best for the church, and the unrepentant congregant basically. I do not know, obviously, if this person was restored through repentance because he was sealed, or if this person was an unrepentant unbeliever who continued on his path, and was truly given over to his sin, but I do think that Paul is exampling God's discernment before us...to put obedience to God above our own pride and sentiment...and it will benefit all. We don't know the heart, but the sin must be addressed for the sake of the church...the separation was needed, and should have been done quickly for the sake of the church, and the one in sin. The actual fate of this individual is in the hands of God alone.

Solo, if you have something else to show me, or point out, I am happy to hear it. The Lord bless you.

First impressions would lead one to believe that this fornicator was living in a manner that he was accustomed to, and had not ceased from walking in the old man. the flesh sold under sin. He was not walking in the spirit, but was walking in the flesh. The Scriptures speak to us in a number of places that when a believer walks in the flesh he can expect to reap the consequences to his actions to the point of physical death. Paul explains to the church at Corinth that they should expel this fornicator from the church, and "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." The believer is born of the flesh in the physical state, and the believer is also born of the Spirit in the spiritual state. Believers have the liberty in God's grace to do all things, however, not all things are profitable! Should we sin so that grace may abound? No, God forbid!! Why did Paul say that this fornicator would be turned out to satan away from the protection of the body of Christ for the destruction of his flesh, but that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ?

A person is not ejected from the local body of Christ for being an unbeliever, otherwise many, many individuals would not hear the word of God. When a believer is involved in a sinful lifestyle it is up to the church discipline rules to be followed. First by one who learns first hand, then by two, then by the elders, then by the entire church, etc.

I believe that this fornicator was a believer in that Paul recognized the born again feature of believers; the spirit that would be saved. It is possible that the following scripture is written to the church at Corinth for this particular brother in sin.

4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you. 5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. 6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; 11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2 Corinthians 2:5-11

Sin is the most despicable trait that any living thing could exist with, and the entire creation was corrupted because of it, and Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God shed His innocent blood before us all, that we might overcome sin through Him. We have been purchased and the Holy Spirit is the earnest of Jesus Christ's possession, until the day of redemption. We are bought, paid for by a terrible price of one who loves more than we can comprehend. If not for him, we are all as this fornicator, except without hope. There but by the grace of God go I.

Thank you Lovely for the opportunity to preach a little more, and may God bless you and your family during this time. I pray you are healing and will be perfectly healthy.

Michael

 

[lovely]

Michael,

Thanks for your response. I will have to pray and look over those verses some more. I did not find myself in disagreement with you really, because I believe what you said could be a possibility. I find myself unsure about the state of this person's heart still, but I found your points very clear and well made, and they have given me cause to think more about that matter as it is contained in the passage. I know of some who have had times, or blocks of time, in their lives where they admit that the did not follow Christ as they should have...being caught up in certain lusts...and I think this passage may very well help them see God's abundant grace and tender mercies, but also his chastisement that may lead to restoration for the believer. The thing is, I know this person was probably a 'professed' believer, but I am unsure if Paul is saying that his soul would actually be saved, or if he meant that delivering his flesh to satan was likely a better course if his soul were to be saved. He says, "so that his soul 'may' be saved", and I think it can be taken both ways. The other thing, that may seal it for you, but brings questions to me is that Paul does seem to indicate further in the chapter that it is those 'named' as brothers who do these sins that God would have us separate from...not the world. This seems to indicate to me that some may not have genuine profession, especially since we know that the tares are among us. His fruit did not seem good from this passage. For me, it is hard to be sure, and I am not sure that Paul was either...since it is only God who sees the heart...though I think Paul handled it well. I do agree, though, that this person's discipline, and restoration, could be why Paul was writing. I hope so.

A question for you, Michael. Do you think his response to Paul's judgement...even if it was delayed for some time... would be the real indicator, or are you firmly convinced he was a believer, and not just professing? Wouldn't a true believer likely come to love His Father's discipline, repent, and bear fruit out of the struggle...even if he continued to struggle? Just some questions, but I do not see us in strong disagreement for myself, except to say that I would think this man would most likely be repentant about his actions at some point if he were genuinely of the faith, especially if his sin is revealed to him by the church. If not, and he had an untimely death, then only God will know the true state of his heart....though, I will say if he is God's then he will be saved...period. So, we may have a slight disagreement since I am not positive about his faith, but other than that I think that his faith being genuine is an option because I don't know the heart, nor the extent of God's mercy...though I would suspect for the elect that it is endless.

Michael, thanks so much for your prayers...I grow stronger every day, and I am itching to clean the house this morning. My Michael has said not to, and so I will not, because I know it will set me back as I am still only breathing shallow breaths. I feel my lungs getting stronger, though. I will have to keep still, but mentally busy, in order to resist the temptation. :wink: I will use some of that time to look over the passage again. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts so clearly, and to encourage me to be more sensitive to the Spirit, and God's mercy for His children. The Lord bless you.

 

[Solo]

A question for you, Michael. Do you think his response to Paul's judgement...even if it was delayed for some time... would be the real indicator, or are you firmly convinced he was a believer, and not just professing? Wouldn't a true believer likely come to love His Father's discipline, repent, and bear fruit out of the struggle...even if he continued to struggle? Just some questions, but I do not see us in strong disagreement for myself, except to say that I would think this man would most likely be repentant about his actions at some point if he were genuinely of the faith, especially if his sin is revealed to him by the church. If not, and he had an untimely death, then only God will know the true state of his heart....though, I will say if he is God's then he will be saved...period. So, we may have a slight disagreement since I am not positive about his faith, but other than that I think that his faith being genuine is an option because I don't know the heart, nor the extent of God's mercy...though I would suspect for the elect that it is endless.

Lovely,
Thank you for such a kind and well thought out reply to my previous post. Let me answer your two questions, and then give you a hip hip hooray for growing stronger day by day. (Keep away from that housework, it will be there tomorrow when you are stronger! :D

First question: Do you think his response to Paul's judgement...even if it was delayed for some time... would be the real indicator, or are you firmly convinced he was a believer, and not just professing?

I am not convinced that this individual was indeed a believer or just a professor, but the impression that I get is that he was a believer walking in the flesh, needing to repent in order to be about the business of God, not the business of himself. I believe that this record being in Scripture is for our reproof, correction, or instruction concerning this area of experience. It is to learn what to do concerning the leaven that can shut down the work of God in an assembly, and how to handle one that is a brother fallen from grace (unmerited favor not salvation). I have absolutely no doubt that when a person is born again, he/she will enter the Kingdom of God regardless of how they build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ.

A verse of Scripture that shows this is written by Paul to the Corinthians in the same letter. It speaks of building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ, the Faith that justifies our Salvation; and how when one builds upon this foundation Godly works, they will remain reaping a reward for one, but if the works are unGodly, they will burn up. Even though this one will suffer loss, and his works will be burned, he himself will be saved; "yet so by fire". It won't be pleasant on this earth for him for doing unGodly works.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15


Second question: Wouldn't a true believer likely come to love His Father's discipline, repent, and bear fruit out of the struggle...even if he continued to struggle?

Hopefully, a true believer would come to repentance and begin serving the Lord by walking in the spirit being about the business of God. I use Samson's life as a picture of one who lived for the pleasures of this world as one walks in disobedience to God. When Samson was given over to satan for destruction, he repented at the very end and was given his strength back to destroy the govenment officials of Philistine just before being killed.

27 Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport. 28 And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes. 29 And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left. 30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life. Judges 16:27-30

Continue to get better, and know that many are praying for you and your family.

God bless,
Michael