Calvinism defined

[electedbyHim]

I guess I can't believe that when a child reaches the point they ask about heaven , Jesus , is Grandma there ? can I go to heaven? etc,etc,etc,
That someone with your theology would be honest to such a theology and tell little Joey or Suzy that :
" you actually have no say in whether you are unregenerate or chosen elect Joey or Suzy your fate was decided a long time ago"
"In fact Joey or Suzy, statistically you have a much better chance of being a hell doomed unregenerate than you do a chosen elect ."
How do you bring yourself to tell a child such a thing ?

Actually if little Joey or Suzy ask ablout heaven and going there, we witness to them and share the beautiful gospel of Jesus Christ as we do with all sinners.

We sew the seed.

No one knows who is God's elect.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So if God has determined that a person will have no choice but to go to hell while they are still in the womb, how then does God "Love" that person ?

Obviously, billions of dead people who never heard to Christ over the last 2000 years have no choice to except God yet Romans 1 says they are without excuse.
Those who have heard the salvific gospel of Christ have a choice. Said choice is determined by their desires. Their desires are determined by God. "No one seeks God or does good" - Romans 3:10-12 is the default desire unless God intervenes to change that desire (regeneration) for this is the "work of God that you believe" (John 6:29). Now, you may feel that if everyone does not choose God then that is not a choice but it you look up the definition of "choice" you find it is "The act of choosing; selection." Everyone who has heard the salvific gospel of Christ can 'choose' but since they all have a desire for evil (sin nature) they all freely "choose" to not belief unless God intervenes.

how then does God "Love" that person ?

Definition of Love (agape): to favor
God does not love (favor) those He sends to hell. God does not love (favor) everyone: Example: Romans 9:13
To the degree God favors a person He loves them. So, a person destined for hell could be loved (favored), but only to a small degree like God sees to it that the person has food to eat, lives a healthy life. But anyone destined for hell for eternity is not loved (favored) very much.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I can certainly understand why God would hate us.
What I do not understand is why God would Love any of us .
Even before coming out of the womb, no less.

Well.... I'll take a stab at the question.

The question of WHY does God do "X" or "Y"
There is no answer to WHY God does anything. God is the First Cause of all things; He's actions are never the effect of some external cause and thus the question of WHY God does a thing cannot be answered save to say His actions are a result of His nature/attributes. One can know His purpose to some degree which is His glory and His pleasure.
The question of WHY is further complicated by the fact: Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.



For God's will is so much the highest rule of righteousness that whatever he wills, by the very fact that he wills it, must be considered righteous. When, therefore, one asks why God has so done, we must reply: because he has willed it. But if you proceed further to ask why he so willed, you are seeking something greater and higher than God's will, which cannot be found. Let men's rashness, then, restrain itself, and not seek what does not exist. John Calvin

Nothing out of God can be the cause of any effect; for then there would be a cause prior to him, the Cause of himself, and that would be God, and not he. John Gill - Body to Doctrinal Divinity

 

[Fastfredy0]

So in your theology there are small children, babies even that I see everyday that God Hates ?

There is an example in scripture of God hating a baby ...
Romans 9:11 and though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything either good or bad, so that God’s purpose [His choice, His election] would stand, not because of works [done by either child], but because of [the plan of] Him who calls them, 12 it was said to her, “The older (Esau) will serve the younger (Jacob).” 13 As it is written and forever remains written, “Jacob I loved (chose, protected, blessed), but Esau I hated (held in disregard compared to Jacob).” AMP
There's many verses saying God is immutable. Therefore, one can conclude that He eternally hates or loves a person.

It's not as if babies are conceived in innocence: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Actually if little Joey or Suzy ask ablout heaven and going there, we witness to them and share the beautiful gospel of Jesus Christ as we do with all sinners.

We sew the seed.

No one knows who is God's elect.

So then you just neglect to mention the fact that no matter how beautiful the gospel is to them their status of either unregenerate hell doomed lost or Saved elect has long ago been determined by God.

Why wouldn't you tell them the truth concerning God already have decided their fate ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Obviously, billions of dead people who never heard to Christ over the last 2000 years have no choice to except God yet Romans 1 says they are without excuse.
Those who have heard the salvific gospel of Christ have a choice. Said choice is determined by their desires. Their desires are determined by God.

Their fate then is still determined by God.
Adding an extra step amounts to no more than a distinction without any difference in the final determination being made God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Their fate then is still determined by God.

Everything is determined by God. Show me a verse saying something is not controlled by God. You imply man controls God when it comes to an individual's salvation. You would have the inferior controlling the Almighty.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out).
Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? Show me a verse saying God's steps are directed by man.
Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."
Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.
Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God, not the will of man]

Give me scripture to support your contention ... and not just something like "choose you this day who you will obey" which does not say whether or not it was God that controlled one's choice. Give us some evidence.

 

[Consecrated Life]

So if God has determined that a person will have no choice but to go to hell while they are still in the womb, how then does God "Love" that person ?

Definition of Love (agape): to favor
God does not love (favor) those He sends to hell. God does not love (favor) everyone: Example: Romans 9:13
To the degree God favors a person He loves them. So, a person destined for hell could be loved (favored), but only to a small degree like God sees to it that the person has food to eat, lives a healthy life. But anyone destined for hell for eternity is not loved (favored) very much.

So like a neglected child that does have a roof and food, clothes ,etc,etc, supplied to them but is never really shown affection or interest by their parents a person determined by God to be destined for hell could actually feel as the child does that God loves them , very Little ?
Wow ,how depressing .
Can you imagine how bad that would be for the child that gets the earthly whammy of being loved very little by parents, only to discover through the little love they feel from God they get a supernatural Whammy and discover they have been pre-determined to be eternal occupants of hell .

1John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

[Consecrated Life]

There is an example in scripture of God hating a baby ...
Romans 9:11 and though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything either good or bad, so that God’s purpose [His choice, His election] would stand, not because of works [done by either child], but because of [the plan of] Him who calls them, 12 it was said to her, “The older (Esau) will serve the younger (Jacob).” 13 As it is written and forever remains written, “Jacob I loved (chose, protected, blessed), but Esau I hated (held in disregard compared to Jacob).” AMP
There's many verses saying God is immutable. Therefore, one can conclude that He eternally hates or loves a person.

It's not as if babies are conceived in innocence: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

God hated Esau because he sold his birthright for a bowl of soup .
It was determined the choice Esau made that God hated him.

Heb 12:16
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Everything is determined by God. Show me a verse saying something is not controlled by God. You imply man controls God when it comes to an individual's salvation. You would have the inferior controlling the Almighty.

So then the lesson you learned from the parable is that when the Prodigal determined he would go to his father confess his unworthiness to be called his son and ask forgiveness, it was the father being controlled ?

Luke 15:20
"And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."

Your concept of God is not one that I am familiar with.

 

[electedbyHim]

God hated Esau because he sold his birthright for a bowl of soup .
It was determined the choice Esau made that God hated him.

Heb 12:16
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

What part of these verses do you not understand.

Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

 

[electedbyHim]

So then the lesson you learned from the parable is that when the Prodigal determined he would go to his father confess his unworthiness to be called his son and ask forgiveness, it was the father being controlled ?

Luke 15:20
"And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."

Your concept of God is not one that I am familiar with.

Your concept of God is not one that I am familiar with.

These doctrines are taught throughout Scripture, beginning to end.

What concept of God are you familiar with?

 

[Fastfredy0]

So like a neglected child that does have a roof and food, clothes ,etc,etc, supplied to them but is never really shown affection or interest by their parents a person determined by God to be destined for hell could actually feel as the child does that God loves them , very Little ?
Wow ,how depressing .

You would have to speak to God about your feelings as to how God (the Potter) should conduct the affairs of men. Job questioned God after having his goods taken, his family killed and health taken away and got a tongue lashing for it. Maybe you will do better.
I agree, situations can be depressing like dying having never heard of Christ or being born missing a leg or being born blind to which when Jesus asked why, Jesus responded that it was God's selection for the Lord's glory.

Can you imagine how bad that would be for the child that gets the earthly whammy of being loved very little by parents, only to discover through the little love they feel from God they get a supernatural Whammy and discover they have been pre-determined to be eternal occupants of hell .

Agreed, very bad from our perspective. The happiness of man is not God's purpose. The Almighty God could save everyone if He choose to do so.

1John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Hebrews 12:29 for our God is [indeed] a consuming fire.
Now figure out the seeming contradiction.

God is holy and abhors sin and cannot love those that have aspects contrary to His holiness.
Gods say "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy"

 

[Fastfredy0]

God hated Esau because he sold his birthright for a bowl of soup .
It was determined the choice Esau made that God hated him.

God hated Esau, per the verses, before Esau was born; before Esau did anything.
Jacob God loved even though Jacob did some bad things.
God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy. Man does not control God via man's independent actions.

Proof that God controls all things:
Premise 1: God in immutable
Premise 2: God knows all things (past and future included)
Premise 3: God does not know what nothing will do for from nothing, nothing comes
Premise 4: We were all nothing before God created time
Conclusion: God controls all things as proved by knowing all things through out eternity immutably even when there was nothing by God to glean said knowledge.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So then the lesson you learned from the parable is that when the Prodigal determined he would go to his father confess his unworthiness to be called his son and ask forgiveness, it was the father being controlled ?

I tend not to try to figure out parables as Jesus was asked by His disciples why Jesus spoke in parables and Jesus responded that He didn't want people in general to know what He was talking about though He did explain parables to the disciples but the disciples don't explain most parables to us in scripture.
Best to stick to didactic teachings and not narrative stories or parables IMO.
Aside: Some refer to this parable as representing nations for example of how parables can be ambiguous.

Your concept of God is not one that I am familiar with.

Well, I try to use scripture. The best you've got so far is an ambiguous parable and "God is love".

Aside: Interesting discussion. Thanks for your patience civility.

 

[Consecrated Life]

What part of these verses do you not understand.

Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

I understand that before Esau was even his selling of his birthright for a hot supper was an offense to God.

 

[Consecrated Life]

These doctrines are taught throughout Scripture, beginning to end.

What concept of God are you familiar with?

This one:

Luke 15:20
"And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."

 

[Consecrated Life]

God hated Esau, per the verses, before Esau was born; before Esau did anything.

God didn't know Esau sold his birthright for a hot supper before the foundation of the world ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Actually if little Joey or Suzy ask ablout heaven and going there, we witness to them and share the beautiful gospel of Jesus Christ as we do with all sinners.

We sew the seed.

No one knows who is God's elect.

Sow the seed to what ?
We can't act on anything, and have no choice in the matter: so what fruit can "the seed" bear ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

I tend not to try to figure out parables as Jesus was asked by His disciples why Jesus spoke in parables and Jesus responded that He didn't want people in general to know what He was talking about though He did explain parables to the disciples but the disciples don't explain most parables to us in scripture.
Best to stick to didactic teachings and not narrative stories or parables IMO.
Aside: Some refer to this parable as representing nations for example of how parables can be ambiguous.





Well, I try to use scripture. The best you've got so far is an ambiguous parable and "God is love".

Aside: Interesting discussion. Thanks for your patience civility.

The best you got was not from me.
It was from Jesus who gave the example of the Prodigal and the Father as example of the nature of God the Father .
God the Father who is not "controlled" by the sinner determining for himself to "arise" and go to the Father who has never stopped seeking him.
A child could easily understand what Jesus has revealed in the story.
The wisdom the power and the love that Jesus reveals in a story unambiguous which cannot be hidden from any that know Him.
It is not me that has your understanding shackled.

Luke 15:20
"And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."