Calvinism

[stovebolts]

ehh, just get your kid (or grandkid). If he's over the age of 5, he can do it for you :

 

[JM]

Nice looking blog RED.

 

[Steve]

When I said 'Catholic' I meant Roman Catholic. They are not Christians.

Sola Fide
Red Beetle

EXCUSE ME????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah Steve, I agree with your comment and found it very offensive myself.
Personally, I may not have to agree with the Roman Catholics, but I am far from claiming to be judge over them for professing Christ as their savior.

James 4:11-12 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

 

[Solo]

Yeah Steve, I agree with your comment and found it very offensive myself.
Personally, I may not have to agree with the Roman Catholics, but I am far from claiming to be judge over them for professing Christ as their savior.

James 4:11-12 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

What is more offensive to you; teaching false doctrines that send people to hell, or manifesting the truth so that individuals can escape the lies of the Roman Catholic institution?

Let me give you an example of what the person whom Jesus called the greater of men born of a woman said to those who were false teachers:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Matthew 3:7

Believers are to discern the condition of others and to reveal the false teachers for the good of those that are caught up in the lies and deceptions of the enemy. Salvation will only come to those who are shown the error of their ways, not by coddling them while they continue to live in an institution that guarantees their salvation by works.

 

[Guest]

Calvinism denies that those who hold to the system of Roman Catholicism are Christian.
The Westminster Confession of Faith clearly and correctly states that the Pope is Antichrist.

Roman Catholicism also denies that anyone who is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church-state is a Christian. See the decrees of Trent.

Christians believe that the Bible Alone is the Word of God (Sola Scriptura)
.
Catholics believe that the source of truth is the Roman Catholic Church-state (sola ekklesia).

Christianity starts with the 66 Books of Scripture, then deduces its doctrines.

Catholicism starts with the fallible Roman Catholic clergy, then claims to authorize Scripture. This is why Roman Catholics believe in "free" will, not because it is taught in Scripture (for it is not), but because it was added by Roman Catholics like Thomas Aquinas. The heresy of "free" will is just one example of what happens to an organization which takes the word of its sinful clergy and pope over the Bible.

Sola Fide
Red Beetle

 

[Veritas]

Solo wrote:
What is more offensive to you; teaching false doctrines that send people to hell, or manifesting the truth so that individuals can escape the lies of the Roman Catholic institution?

RED BEETLE wrote:
Calvinism denies that those who hold to the system of Roman Catholicism are Christian.

How much understanding do you think the man next to Jesus on the cross had?

"Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23:39-43

I doubt very much that criminal was learned in theology.

 

[destiny]

Calvinism denies that those who hold to the system of Roman Catholicism are Christian.
The Westminster Confession of Faith clearly and correctly states that the Pope is Antichrist.

Roman Catholicism also denies that anyone who is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church-state is a Christian. See the decrees of Trent.

Christians believe that the Bible Alone is the Word of God (Sola Scriptura)
.
Catholics believe that the source of truth is the Roman Catholic Church-state (sola ekklesia).

Christianity starts with the 66 Books of Scripture, then deduces its doctrines.

Catholicism starts with the fallible Roman Catholic clergy, then claims to authorize Scripture. This is why Roman Catholics believe in "free" will, not because it is taught in Scripture (for it is not), but because it was added by Roman Catholics like Thomas Aquinas. The heresy of "free" will is just one example of what happens to an organization which takes the word of its sinful clergy and pope over the Bible.

Sola Fide
Red Beetle

Could you tell me where I might look up the gospel according to John Calvin in my bible? I can't seem to find his name anywhere. Isn't he your "pope"? (sarcasm intended)
Man exaltation isn't just happening in the catholic church....I even saw where you guys start small children out watching videos about John Calvin :o
I guess you need to get them while they're young!

I have no doubt in my mind that 'Fransisdesales' (a catholic member here) is a man of God, and seems to know the bible better than those who haughtily sit as judges over his salvation.
Not only that, he has actual evidence of fruit instead of 'doctrinal' know it all lip service, unlike the proud modern day pharisees.
The new sport around here is sweeping judgment and condemnation instead of fair doctrinal refutation. I have come to realize some things I found surprising in the past few weeks here, not good things.

Due to my indignation here, it is obviously time for me to take a much needed hiatus from this site.

So long

 

[Oscar3]

Great stuff RED
There is another destructive doctrine of the church of christ cult. This to me looks like RCC OR CC



The Church of Christ is a false religion because it is wrong on the essential Biblical plan of salvation. In fact, many Church of Christ ministers have taught that the Church of Christ group is the true church of Christ, and no one else is. They even go as far as to claim that people who haven't been baptized by a Church of Christ preacher will go to Hell. I distinctly recall a discussion I once had with a Church of Christ minister. He was arrogant, doctrinally corrupt, and unsaved. He believed that for a person to be saved, they had to have faith, repent of sins, and be baptized. Well, that's two items too many! The only thing that God requires of men to be saved is faith alone in Christ.

"Repent" in the Bible, concerning salvation, simply means "a change of mind," not the forsaking of one's sins. The forsaking of one's sins is a result of growing in grace, which often takes many years, as a believer grows in the Lord. One does not have to surrender anything to the Lord to be saved, BUT, simply believe upon the Lord (Acts 16:31). The only thing that a person needs to repent of to be saved is their unbelief. Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15). A "gift" has no strings attached. Many preachers have developed the bad habit of requiring people to walk down to the front of the church to be saved; BUT, that is a work not required by God. Why does a person need to walk down to the front of the church? Can't they be saved in their pew? Of course they can! If you'll simply believe upon Jesus Christ to forgive your sins and save you, then you will go to Heaven when you die (John 14:6; Romans 10:13).

2nd Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." Carefully notice the phrase, "if any man be in Christ..." The change comes AFTER a person is saved, not as a requirement to be saved. Salvation is like picking an old soda can out of the garbage. You've saved it, but it hasn't been recycled (converted) yet. Likewise, God pulls us out of the garbage when He saves us; BUT, now He must recycle us into His image. Christian growth in grace is not required to go to Heaven. I know this shocks many self-righteous religious people; but it's Biblical (John 3:3; Romans 4:3-5; Ephesians 2:8,9). If you trust Jesus Christ as your Saviour, you're going to Heaven, whether you grow in the Lord or not while on earth. There are some lousy Christians in this world, but that doesn't mean they're not saved. King David was an adulterer, murderer, and crook; BUT, he only lost the joy of salvation, not salvation itself. Such rebellious believers will give account at the Judgment Seat of Christ.


'Baptismal Regeneration' is Unbiblical

Church of Christ members teach that baptism is required for salvation, but it is not. They believe that obedience is a part of salvation. However, the only thing which we must obey to be saved is the Gospel, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." There is nothing in the Bible which requires a person to be baptized in order to be saved. On the contrary, we read in John 3:18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." One who has trusted in Christ is saved, not condemned, whether he has been baptized or not. John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." There is no mention in this verse concerning baptism. Or what about John 10:9, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Again, there is no mention of being baptized to be saved. There are hundreds of New Testament references which mention faith in Christ, without baptism being mentioned. Clearly, it is faith alone in Christ which saves a person, without baptism. The Church of Christ cult teaches damnable heresies by ADDING requirements which God didn't add.

A careful study of the Scriptures with an honest heart makes it quite clear that works CANNOT save a person, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified IN HIS SIGHT: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." One cannot be justified in the sight of God by WORKS. When James spoke of being justified by works, he clearly stated...

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James was speaking about being justified in the SIGHT OF MEN. 1st Samuel 16:7 tells us why, "...for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." Man cannot see our heart's faith, so he looks at our works instead. However, God can see our heart, and it is all that He looks at. It is true that faith without works is dead; BUT, it is equally true that salvation (justification in the sight of God), comes by faith, without works. Romans 4:6 states, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works." Baptism is a work, that if added to faith in Christ, will send a man to Hell forever.

Faith + any work = NO faith at all

"Baptismal regeneration" is simply the heretical teaching that one must be baptised in order to be saved. It is a Satanic doctrine, which is responsible for sending billions to Hell. The Catholic Church REQUIRES it's members to be baptized in order to go to Heaven. So does the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, etc. Jesus NEVER told anyone to get baptized to be saved. No one in the Old Testament was ever baptized; yet, we read that Abraham was justified by faith, without works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3-5).


Conclusion

Please leave the Church of Christ cult if you've been entangled in their doctrinal trap. They also deny the existence of a literal Heaven, the millennial reign of Christ, the Rapture, and many other fundamental Bible teachings. The Church of Christ is bad news!!! They focus on baptism so much that the plain Biblical plan of salvation is obscured; thus, they have churchianity without Christianity. So many people go through the rituals and ceremonies of religion, but they never become born-again believers. They join a church, get baptized, sing in a choir, tithe, go through the motions; BUT, they don't know Jesus Christ as Saviour. They go through the outward form of religion, thinking that they are obeying God's plan of salvation; BUT, they do not have the change of heart, because they are trusting the church and the form and the ceremony and holding out faithful and many other works of men, instead of depending solely on Jesus Christ. Psalm 118:8 declares, "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." I say to the Church of Christ the same thing which the Apostle Paul said to the church at Galatia, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth"? (Galatians 3:1). O foolish Church of Christ, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth? You have erred after another Gospel (Galatians 1:6). The Biblical Gospel does NOT require baptism to be saved, nor does it require a person to forsake their sins. Such actions are "works," and then God would owe us salvation, which is unbiblical (Romans 4:4-5). Salvation is of God, paid for by the precious blood of Jesus. Our responsibility is to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:31)--and that's it!

iT SURE sounds like RCC .

 

[Oscar3]

Could you tell me where I might look up the gospel according to John Calvin in my bible? I can't seem to find his name anywhere. Isn't he your "pope"? (sarcasm intended)
Man exaltation isn't just happening in the catholic church....I even saw where you guys start small children out watching videos about John Calvin :o
I guess you need to get them while they're young!

I have no doubt in my mind that 'Fransisdesales' (a catholic member here) is a man of God, and seems to know the bible better than those who haughtily sit as judges over his salvation.
Not only that, he has actual evidence of fruit instead of 'doctrinal' know it all lip service, unlike the proud modern day pharisees.
The new sport around here is sweeping judgment and condemnation instead of fair doctrinal refutation. I have come to realize some things I found surprising in the past few weeks here, not good things.

Due to my indignation here, it is obviously time for me to take a much needed hiatus from this site.

So long

BIRDS OF A FEATHER

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[stovebolts]

You guys are too much! Excuse me while I laugh my self into a frenzy lol.

Going backwards,
Oscar,
You are miserably misinformed in many areas.

Solo,
You’re a good man, but we do see many things radically different. As with Oscar, you seem more interested in stirring the pot with dogma and causing strife through misunderstandings, than you are in being a part of the solution. On one side of the fence you preach salvation as a free gift. If you truly believed that, then you wouldn’t be judge over how another receives that gift.
Let me ask you one simple question. First of all, if Christ’s yoke (teachings) is light, why do you place such a heavy burden on this light load? I mean, c’mon now. If Salvation is truly a free gift to the degree that you state, then who are you to say that Roman Catholics can’t accept this gift too? I mean, if we can’t earn our salvation and we only have to accept Christ into our hearts to be saved, then how would attempting to do good works for whatever motive impede ones salvation as a whole if as what you have said in the past is true that salvation is simply a gift that we can’t earn?

Red,
The Roman Catholic Church does not deny salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. It is in there CCC. Do your homework before you start making false accusations.

 

[stovebolts]

'Baptismal Regeneration' is Unbiblical

Church of Christ members teach that baptism is required for salvation, but it is not. They believe that obedience is a part of salvation.

I have sent you a PM requesting a one on one debate on what the Church of Christ believes on baptism. I truly hope you accept my request.

Jeff

 

[Guest]

Steve writes:

Red,
The Roman Catholic Church does not deny salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. It is in there CCC. Do your homework before you start making false accusations.

Let me cite for you some of the Canons that the Roman Catholic Church drew up at the Counter-Reformation during the 16th Century. Remarks that have never been retracted. These are the remarks a priest must openly swear to before he is ordained in that synogogue of Satan. You too can read how Catholics condemned every Protestant to hell in their wonderful Sixth Session of the Council of Trent. Officially named:
The Canons and Decrees of the Sacred and Oecumenical Council of Trent.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

This is a denial of the Biblical teaching of predestination. A plain claim that any who believes in God's absolute determination as taught in Scripture is going to hell.

CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.

This is an explicit denial of Romans 3:12 and the denial of Original sin and total depravity. It is a plain statement by the Roman Catholic Church that condemns any who disagrees with them at this point.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

This is a complete denial of Justification by Faith Alone (Romans 3:28). It is a plain statement that condemns any who believe in Sola Fide, that is, the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think it is you Steve, who are ignorant on what Catholics believe. Have you ever heard of the "holy" Inquisition? Catholics only killed anywhere from 40-65 million people with this during the Dark Ages. The Inquisition makes the Nazi Holocaust quite small in comparison. If you disagreed with what the pope teaches, then you were condemned and then turned over to the government to be tortured, then murdered.

When England broke ties with the Catholic Church during the 16th century, the pope tried to have Queen Elizabeth murdered. He also sent the Spanish Armada to take back England for the Roman Catholic Church-state. They failed miserably and thus ended the Spanish Naval domination.

The Catholics tried to blow up parliment on November 5th, 1605 in an attempt to kill the Protestant King James I. It was a group of Jesuit Catholic priests who were hung for the attempted terrorist plot. Long before Muslims ever thought about blowing up government buildings to change the political landscape, the Roman Catholics were already on the job in the early 17th century. They were the original extremist terrorists. The plot has been named "the gun-powder plot". It is still remembered each Nov. 5th of every year. It is also known as bon-fire night.

King James II was run out of England for trying to reclaim it for the pope a bit later. King Louis 14th of France helped King James II invade Ireland where he raised a Roman Catholic army of possibly 100,000 Jacobite Irish Catholics (who would later become that loving terrorist group known as the Irish Republican Army I.R.A.) in an attempt to reclaim England for the pope. He wanted to invade England via Ireland. The Great Protestant defender William of Orange, who shared the thrown with Mary (William and Mary), landed on Northern Ireland with 30,000 Protestant soldiers and drove King James II out of Ireland like Patrick drove out the snakes!

Well, we could go on all day long about how Roman Catholics hate Protestants to the extent that they burned William Tyndale to death for publishing the Bible in English, or I could mention how "saint" Thomas Moore burned little children to death in England for not accepting the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation and the Mass during the Reformation, or we could talk about how 100,000 Protestant Huguenots were murdered in two days at what is known as St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, but I wouldn't want to disturb your sleepy state of mind.

Has the Roman Catholic Church changed its stance? No. Have they ever apologized for their crimes against humanity? No.
To this day they officially renounce freedom of speech, the free press, and freedom of religion. Check out Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors 1864 for confirmation.

Let's not forget how papal nuncio Eugenio Pacelli, later to be Pope Pius the XII, signed the treaty with Hitler, known as the Concordant, which officially recognized and supported the Nazi government in Germany. The papacy signed the Lateran Agreement with Mussolini thus recognizing his fascist dictatorship, while the Vatican officially became a nation-state itself with a loot of money to boot. Pope Pius XII also supported Franco's evil regime in Spain during WWII, while he excomunicated any Catholic who was for a free democratic-republic! Why did Hitler, who was a good Catholic in good standing with the Catholic Church not get excommunicated by the Vatican? Hitler was born, raised, and remained Catholic his whole life. It was only when the Nazi regime was beaten that the Vatican made any real attempt to distance itself from Hitler. Many of the war criminals, those in charge of the concentration camps, were Nazis, but also Roman Catholic Bishops, priests, and even nuns! In WWII, it seems the Vatican supported every dictator in Europe that lusted after world power.

The current pope, Josef Ratzinger, was actually a member of Hitler Youth, an organization children volunteered to join. His father was a police officer in Bavaria and remained in good standing with the Nazis throughout WWII. Why did his father work for that Nazi government? Witnesses have already stated on record that there was a good Nazi resistance movement there, so why did they not join it? One wonders how many Jews Ratzinger's father might have arrested. Ratzinger himself was captured by the allies, for he was fighting against the allies. Its all on record for anyone with any interest to read.

The bottom line is that the Roman Catholic Church-state is one of the most dangerous institutions in the world today. It is a sworn enemy to freedom and any religion other than itself. These are basic facts that any 1st semester student of church history should know.

I suggest, if you don't have any church history books, then you might want to purchase a couple of sets from Christian Book Distributors. You can get Phillip Schaff's History of the Christian Church in 8 volumes for usually under $50.00. It's not the greatest, but it is a good start for a comprehensive overview.

Sola Fide
Red Beetle

 

[Guest]

'Baptismal Regeneration' is Unbiblical

Church of Christ members teach that baptism is required for salvation, but it is not. They believe that obedience is a part of salvation.

Catholics believe in baptismal regeneration too. They also believe that one must do good works to acquire justification. Romans 3:28 demonstrates how both views are wrong.
Baptismal regeneration and salvation by faith and works is a common theme within the cults who claim to be Christian.

Sola Fide
Red Beetle

 

[stovebolts]

Catholics believe in baptismal regeneration too. They also believe that one must do good works to acquire justification. Romans 3:28 demonstrates how both views are wrong.
Baptismal regeneration and salvation by faith and works is a common theme within the cults who claim to be Christian.

Sola Fide
Red Beetle

Your a riot lol :

Tell me, does on have to have a "correct" view on baptism to recieve this free gift? :o

 

[Fnerb]

"Baptismal regeneration" is simply the heretical teaching that one must be baptised in order to be saved. It is a Satanic doctrine, which is responsible for sending billions to Hell. The Catholic Church REQUIRES it's members to be baptized in order to go to Heaven. So does the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, etc. Jesus NEVER told anyone to get baptized to be saved. No one in the Old Testament was ever baptized; yet, we read that Abraham was justified by faith, without works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3-5).

Last time I checked I am a member of a Lutheran synod and we do not preach babtism is a REQUIREMENT for admittence to heaven. While we do teach batism is a means of grace, it's not the only means.

 

[JM]

Red,
The Roman Catholic Church does not deny salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. It is in there CCC. Do your homework before you start making false accusations.

That would be the modern, historically twisted view.

________________________________________________

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church" (Denzinger 246-247)

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved" (Denzinger 423).

Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ... For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'"

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical, Summo Jugiter: "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved."

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood" (Denzinger 1647).

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."

idem, Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae:"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God."

Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation."

Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos: "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ... Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors."

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."

_______________________

You would have to twist these plain statements more then just a bit to make them fit into modern Roman Catholicism...but the RC's did!

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]
843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.'

______________________________________

~JM~

 

[stovebolts]

Great post JM. 8-)

Isn't history something? :wink:

I'll tell you what, I've done a lot of bad things in my life. Thank goodness God has the will to forgive me! If it were only that easy with men... But then again, perhaps if persecution would not have occured to the RCC, it's scary where they would be today... Certainly not as she did in the 4th century... let alone the first second or third. (Thought he third is very interesting indeed). Kind of a cause and effect mentality huh?

But alas, the tides have turned and those that rebelled are now saying the exact thing the RCC once said... Simply put, "Your going to Hell"... Kind of sounds like a pride thing to me.

 

[Drew]

A plain claim that any who believes in God's absolute determination as taught in Scripture is going to hell.

Where have you made a (real) case for God's "absolute determination"? Assuming that you hold to the view that God determines every event in history, I challenge to provide texts that support this view with the property that they are not also consistent with other views.

Of course, if you believe otherwise, please ignore this post.

 

[JM]

Great post JM. 8-)

Isn't history something? :wink:

I'll tell you what, I've done a lot of bad things in my life. Thank goodness God has the will to forgive me! If it were only that easy with men... But then again, perhaps if persecution would not have occured to the RCC, it's scary where they would be today... Certainly not as she did in the 4th century... let alone the first second or third. (Thought he third is very interesting indeed). Kind of a cause and effect mentality huh?

But alas, the tides have turned and those that rebelled are now saying the exact thing the RCC once said... Simply put, "Your going to Hell"... Kind of sounds like a pride thing to me.

RC's claim they have an unbroken tradition and that tradition is what is used to understand scripture...