Can a believer stop sinning alltogether?

[Cornelius]

I know we cannot stop sinning in our own power. That much is clear.

Does this mean, that God cannot cause us to stop sinning. I mean if I take a scripture like: Mat 17:20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Does this "nothing shall be impossible unto you" then exclude overcoming sin through faith in the power of God? If that was true, then surely that scripture us lying to us.

 

[Fembot]

I know we cannot stop sinning in our own power. That much is clear.

Does this mean, that God cannot cause us to stop sinning. I mean if I take a scripture like: Mat 17:20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Does this "nothing shall be impossible unto you" then exclude overcoming sin through faith in the power of God? If that was true, then surely that scripture us lying to us.

I don't see sin mentioned in that scripture. Please tell me how "nothing shall be impossible to you" relates to sin. Thanks

 

[Cornelius]

I know we cannot stop sinning in our own power. That much is clear.

Does this mean, that God cannot cause us to stop sinning. I mean if I take a scripture like: Mat 17:20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Does this "nothing shall be impossible unto you" then exclude overcoming sin through faith in the power of God? If that was true, then surely that scripture us lying to us.

I don't see sin mentioned in that scripture. Please tell me how "nothing shall be impossible to you" relates to sin. Thanks

If nothing shall be impossible for the believer with faith the size of a mustard seed, do you think that , that faith , placed in God, can overcome sin?

Or do you think that "nothing" excludes overcoming sin. "Nothing shall be impossible". The thread is about overcoming sin. So if Nothing shall be impossible, why do people say SOME things (overcoming sin) are impossible.

Either they are lying or God is lying.

C

 

[follower of Christ]

16If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:16,17

Let us also learn, it is possible for a brother to commit a sin unto death! This possibility should sober every Christian, causing us to keep ourselves, abiding in Christ, growing in Him, testing the spirits and keeping God's commandments.

http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-1-john-5-16-17.htm

ABsolutely, Fembot.
Of course we are to endeavor to live sinless lives, but scripture shows us that, while try to attain that goal, that it is a battle we will fight while we live in these corruptible shells. Even when we are 80 and we may SEEM to be sinless to those around us, the struggle goes on within us, constantly living to renew our minds and live as we ought to live.

I long for a day when Ive been raised incorruptible and no longer sin.
And I fear the day when Ive convinced myself that this corruptible body is no longer capable of sin.

 

[follower of Christ]

I know we cannot stop sinning in our own power. That much is clear.

Does this mean, that God cannot cause us to stop sinning. I mean if I take a scripture like: Mat 17:20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Does this "nothing shall be impossible unto you" then exclude overcoming sin through faith in the power of God? If that was true, then surely that scripture us lying to us.

I don't see sin mentioned in that scripture. Please tell me how "nothing shall be impossible to you" relates to sin. Thanks

If nothing shall be impossible for the believer with faith the size of a mustard seed, do you think that , that faith , placed in God, can overcome sin?

Or do you think that "nothing" excludes overcoming sin. "Nothing shall be impossible". The thread is about overcoming sin. So if Nothing shall be impossible, why do people say SOME things (overcoming sin) are impossible.

Either they are lying or God is lying.

C

What does John say again ? Is John lying and thus God thru John ?

1Jn 1:8 If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Should we deceive ourselves and ever in these mortal bodies claim to have no sin ? ...even when we're old and seem to be beyond sin...did John lie ?

 

[follower of Christ]

I know we cannot stop sinning in our own power. That much is clear.

Does this mean, that God cannot cause us to stop sinning. I mean if I take a scripture like: Mat 17:20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Does this "nothing shall be impossible unto you" then exclude overcoming sin through faith in the power of God? If that was true, then surely that scripture us lying to us.

I don't see sin mentioned in that scripture. Please tell me how "nothing shall be impossible to you" relates to sin. Thanks

Exactly, sister.
All scriptures need to be examined for context to understand what is being said.
We are instructed and encouraged to NOT sin...that is very much a fact. But based on the WHOLE scope of relevant data we easily discern that perfection isnt something these corruptible bodies will ever attain.
Even when we have licked the big, obvious sins, there will always be those ones we dont even know about where we 'miss the mark' God has set for us.

 

[Cornelius]

So you are saying , I cannot trust God to help me to overcome sin ?

 

[Fembot]

I know we cannot stop sinning in our own power. That much is clear.

Does this mean, that God cannot cause us to stop sinning. I mean if I take a scripture like: Mat 17:20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Does this "nothing shall be impossible unto you" then exclude overcoming sin through faith in the power of God? If that was true, then surely that scripture us lying to us.

I don't see sin mentioned in that scripture. Please tell me how "nothing shall be impossible to you" relates to sin. Thanks

Exactly, sister.
All scriptures need to be examined for context to understand what is being said.
We are instructed and encouraged to NOT sin...that is very much a fact. But based on the WHOLE scope of relevant data we easily discern that perfection isnt something these corruptible bodies will ever attain.
Even when we have licked the big, obvious sins, there will always be those ones we dont even know about where we 'miss the mark' God has set for us.

Perhaps we can overcome sin by repenting and moving forward with the lesson learned. But as you stated, followerofchrist, there will always be those sins we do not recognize or acknowledge. I would not trust the flesh to be anything close to Christ's perfection. One day we will truly LIVE but that time is not now.

 

[follower of Christ]

So you are saying , I cannot trust God to help me to overcome sin ?

You certainly CAN
But *IF* your corruptible body was ABLE to LIVE an entirely SINLESS life then Christ died in vain, brother.
All that had to happen was for us to be told to LIVE sinless and then do it...no need for Christs death to cover sins we didnt commit.

The law was a burden...it shows us just how hard it would be to live absolutely sinless. There are things where we 'miss the mark' God has set for us that we probably NEVER even know about.
What WE define as 'sin' and what GOD define as 'sin' are very different. Gods view of 'sin' is FAR more broad than ours is.

That is probably why even later on Paul calls himself chiefest of sinners. He probably SEEMED sinless to those around him in his behavoir, but Paul understood that 'sin' isnt just when we cuss or hit someone. It goes much deeper than that and covers a lot more than we think it does.

Our GOAL is to live sinless. Our ADMISSION is that we will never be sinless in these bodies and if we cliam we are then we are deceiving ourselves..

1Jn 1:8 If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[follower of Christ]

Perhaps we can overcome sin by repenting and moving forward with the lesson learned. But as you stated, followerofchrist, there will always be those sins we do not recognize or acknowledge. I would not trust the flesh to be anything close to Christ's perfection. One day we will truly LIVE but that time is not now.

Whats interesting is that over the years that the closer Ive gotten to God...and its been an up and down ride, believe me...is that the closer I get the more I realize that there are things that I hadnt understood as being 'sin' before.
The closer we get to Him, the more our sin is revealed to us, and the more sorrow we feel for it.
When I read Pauls words all thru the NT I can see a man who understands this and feels it in a very strong and personal way.
Romans 8 starts off wonderfully because even tho we understand our state, we can know that while we are walking in the Spirit that we arent condemned because of that state.
As long as we are waging war against the carnal nature inside us...as long as we are looking to the Spirit indwelling us to teach us how to live and how to behave....then we do not need to feel condemned because that nature gets the best of us sometimes. Certainly we feel remorse for the sin we commit when we do commit it, but we also know that when we slip and sin we have an advocate with the Father....

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1Jn 2:1-2 KJV)

The goal we all run for is sinless perfection in Christ. But sadly that is a race we will continue running whle in these corruptible bodies.

 

[Cornelius]

You certainly CAN

But it won't help ? So I can have faith, but it will not happen.

But *IF* your corruptible body was ABLE to LIVE an entirely SINLESS life then Christ died in vain, brother.

I thought that was the reason He died.Joh 1:29 ....... Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!

All that had to happen was for us to be told to LIVE sinless and then do it...no need for Christs death to cover sins we didnt commit.

Sorry , I do not understand what you want say here.

The law was a burden...it shows us just how hard it would be to live absolutely sinless. There are things where we 'miss the mark' God has set for us that we probably NEVER even know about.
What WE define as 'sin' and what GOD define as 'sin' are very different. Gods view of 'sin' is FAR more broad than ours is.

Remember: I said. "I agree that WE cannot overcome sin, but who believes that GOD can make you overcome sin." (So even though you and I cannot, I believe God can and will, for those who have faith for this.)

That is probably why even later on Paul calls himself chiefest of sinners. He probably SEEMED sinless to those around him in his behavoir, but Paul understood that 'sin' isnt just when we cuss or hit someone. It goes much deeper than that and covers a lot more than we think it does.

Just remember that Paul was referring to his unsaved days in context.

Our GOAL is to live sinless. Our ADMISSION is that we will never be sinless in these bodies and if we cliam we are then we are deceiving ourselves..

Why have a goal that is impossible ? Where is the acceptable "cut off point" and when do we go overboard in sin ?

1Jn 1:8 If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Of course, in ourselves we cannot claim to have no sin. But you must admit that there are many scriptures, that will not allow us to sit back and just sink into the comfort of 1 Jb 1:8 as a lifestyle.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.

So if sin has no dominion over me, why do I sin ?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So if I sin, am I then a servant of God or a servant of sin unto death ?

Why is Paul separating himself from sin here as if he has nothing to do with it. Does he know something we do not know?

Rom 7:20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

Who are these "perfect" ones ?

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye are otherwise minded, this also shall God reveal unto you:

There are MANY more such scriptures that would not allow us to just say: "OK , I can sin"

 

[Paidion]

Anyone who is a practising sinner should examine himself to see whether he is truly in the faith.

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. I John 3:6-10 ESV

The very purpose of Christ's death was to deliver us from sin in our lives.

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

As for ceasing from sin completely, although this seems unlikely, it is possible.

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. Ephesians 1:4 NASB

... but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." I Peter 1:15,16 NASB

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48 NASB

God asks us to be holy as He is holy. Jesus asks us to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. Does the Father and the Son ask us to do the impossible? I think not!

 

[follower of Christ]

Anyone who is a practising sinner should examine himself to see whether he is truly in the faith.

'practicing'...absolutely.
If we are practicing sin without thought or remorse then we absolutely need to examine ourselves to see if we are even in the faith.
Practicing sin and slipping once and a while arent the same things

As for ceasing from sin completely, although this seems unlikely, it is possible.

Not according to the WhOLE word of God.

What is worrisome to me about this fallacious thought is that WHEN a man thinks he has become 'sinless' then stumbles yet again, instead of understanding that this WILL happen on occasion because of our war against our sin nature, he instead has to wonder if hes doing something wrong or maybe not even saved.

Ive seen men who thought they were beyond sin stumble and Ive seen it nearly destroy their faith.
Better to KNOW as Paul very clearly did that we are chiefest of sinners and to keep ourselves on CONSTANT guard against that flesh nature than to claim that John was wrong when he said that anyone who claims to be without sin is deceiving himself and the TRUTH is not in him.

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. Ephesians 1:4 NASB

... but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." I Peter 1:15,16 NASB

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48 NASB

God asks us to be holy as He is holy. Jesus asks us to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. Does the Father and the Son ask us to do the impossible? I think not!

And we should endeavor to achieve that. But that doesnt show that we WILL ever BE perfect in this bodies...
Paul knew he had not achieved perfection...but he also knew the race before him and he ran it as if to reach the prize.

Not that I have already obtained, or have already been made perfect; but I press on, if also I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not count myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
(Php 3:12-14 EMTV)

 

[follower of Christ]

Cornelius
Im going to drop out of this thread because Ive seen this all before and I know that theres no convincing anyone in the matter.

I would humbly say to you, dear brother, that when you feel youve accomplished sinless perfection in your body and you feel you are beyond sin....WHEN you then stumble again and sin in whatever way that you do not give up the race.

This is one of those very dangerous doctrines because we set ourselves up to be more than failures when we believe, against what John teaches us, that we are every 'without sin', and then believe that we cannot or do not sin only to find that we have and do.
It can be devastating to someones faith when that happens. Ive seen more than one godly man buy into this error and then when he stumbled it caused more damage to his faith than if he had just accepted that Johns words are very true and we should never try to deceive ourselves into believing that we are without sin or incapable of sin.

While in these corruptible bodies we can ALWAYS choose to sin....ALWAYS.
And while we remain in these bodies we are never beyond sin. Im sorry to those of you who seemingly believe otherwise because you have misunderstood a few verses that are meant to encourage us to run the race against sin, but its just the scriptural fact of the matter.
We will NEVER be beyond the ability or possiblity of sin in these bodies.

You folks have a fine day

 

[Cornelius]

Anyone who is a practising sinner should examine himself to see whether he is truly in the faith.

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. I John 3:6-10 ESV

The very purpose of Christ's death was to deliver us from sin in our lives.

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

As for ceasing from sin completely, although this seems unlikely, it is possible.

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. Ephesians 1:4 NASB

... but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." I Peter 1:15,16 NASB

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48 NASB

God asks us to be holy as He is holy. Jesus asks us to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. Does the Father and the Son ask us to do the impossible? I think not!

Thank you. Then we are in agreement.

I am placing my faith, NOT in my ability. I am also not looking to myself, but unto Jesus. He is able, where I am not. He is strong, where I am weak.

He said to fear not, for He overcame the world for me. I believe Him.

1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. (Not ME..........HIM ! HE is the greater one. He is greater than sin )

As a Christian, I am allowed to celebrate the truth of the Word of God , before I see the reality manifestly.

Why?

Heb 10:23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:
So that is what I am doing. I am holding fast to the confession (I speak it out ) of my hope and I waver not, because I know for sure, that He who made the promise (My Father) is really, really faithful . His Word does not return empty to Him, but it accomplishes that which He sent it forth to do.

We have to have faith, that Jesus is able, even if we are not.

C

 

[Sparkey]

Our Father made Jesus (who knew no sin) to become sin for us. He did it for a reason - that we might become (might be made) the righteousness of God in Him.

We are told to put on the wedding garment - it is spotless. We are told also that many would not. Sad, isn't it?

Who is that one that is prophesied of in the Song of Solomon?

"Turn away thine eyes from me, for they have overcome me..."

 

[Cornelius]

Christians, do not realize that we are to do this through the promises

The promises are just that. Promises. God makes a promise, then we must believe it before it will come to pass.

2Pe 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

See? We only become partakers through our belief in the........promises.

Now see the last part of this scripture says HAVING ESCAPED. God always uses tenses in the Word, because they are important for our faith. Having escaped, is the opposite of "going to escape" (Most Christians are still in the "going to escape" mode, where as God wants us in the "having escaped" mode, through faith.

"Through faith" means, you first have to believe it, before you will see it. No faith mode, so seeing, no receiving. First faith in the promise (without manifestation) then comes the manifestation.

Same principle with overcoming sin: First faith that God HAS done it at the cross (taken sin away) THEN manifestation.

Same with sickness. First believe that you WERE healed, (you are not seeing the healing, but you are seeing it by faith ) THEN comes the healing.



C

 

[Joe67]

Heb 10:14-23

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; (then saith he,)
17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 and (having) a great priest over the house of God;
22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water, ASV

This is the victory, even our faith that overcomes the world.

 

[Cornelius]

Amen: THIS is the victory........even our FAITH that overcomes the world

 

[Cornelius]

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

I know people think this will never happen, but the Bible is clear that it will. God does not base His reality on our expectation. Some people have already accepted this truth by faith ( THIS is the victory even our FAITH that overcomes the world ) By Faith Abraham was counted righteous. So also the other fathers of faith in Hebrews.

By Faith.

God will look after the manifestation of His Word, because it does not return empty unto Him.

Perfection is in Christ. Its not an easy thing to talk about on a forum, because so many has no real Scriptural foundation (no offense meant, but we can know a lot of Scriptures without knowing the Word, because we do not mix it with faith) Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. Good tidings is not just talking about the good news of the birth of Jesus. It is talking about the whole gospel message.