Can a believer stop sinning alltogether?

[Joe67]

Cornelius,

The One Faith, has three parts, qualities, faces as testified by both Paul and John. I am not aware of this manifold testimony of Jesus Christ through Peter, James or Jude. Their testimony is still true.

In the testimony through John it is grouped in one place as follows:
1 John 2:12-14
12 I write unto you, (my) little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil one. I have written unto you, little children, because ye know the Father.

14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the evil one. ASV

The testimony through Paul has three presentations of the faith as:
Justification---Righteousness as Imputed
Sanctification---Set apart for ministry and given gifts
Perfection---Being sacrificed through death
You are aware of the various testimonies through Paul where these three qualities of the manifold wisdom of God are presented. If you desire more Scriptural detail I will labor to present it.

May the Lord Jesus give us patience with the little children. Forgiveness/Justification as imputed unto them is sweet and they need this milk to prepare them for solid food. When someone in the congregation of believers begins to boast of their faith and they are still slaves to sin then the Lord gives us a different stance to them than the stance he gives us to the ones who are struggling under a load of the flesh and they feel its burden. Let us pray that the Lord will make them youthful and overcome the wicked one with the whole armor of God; and to put away worldly wisdom that leaves them in their sins.

Then may we all come into the fullness/perfection of the faith, and we will at the time set by the Father.
At that time the Father of our spirits, the Father of lights, gives us to know him who is from the beginning, giving us to become fathers to our fellow members of the body, even as Paul testified to giving birth to the Galatians(chapter 4:19). Not one of his chosen will fail, except the one who betrays his Lord for 30 pieces of silver and he was ordained for this from the foundation. It must needs be, but woe be to him by whom it comes.

Your fellow servant in Jesus Christ our Lord,
Joe

 

[mondar]

I would side with those who deny the irradiation of the sin nature is the extent of personal sanctification in this life.

 

[Joe67]

mondar,

It is written:

Heb 10:10
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. KJV

Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. KJV

God has raised us up in Christ Jesus and has made us to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

He became all that we are that we might be made all things in him.

Joe

 

[mondar]

Joe,

It is written,

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Joe67]

Joe,

It is written,

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

mondar,

Amen and Amen.

He forgives us through his blood and cleanses us through the washing of regeneration, the washing of water by the Word.

Yet, sin abides in our flesh, but not in our heart and mind. Romans 7:25; 8:10.

Your brother in Jesus our Lord,
Joe

 

[Sparkey]

Is this discussion mere semantics? Are we merely speaking about "when"?

To say that I have no sin is to say that I have never sinned, yes?
Can I see your heart? Can I see your spirit? Is your heart pure? Is your spirit holy?
Did our Father actually impart His Spirit to you?
If you were to adorn yourself with the wedding garment that is given (even to the beggars like me who are being dragged to the wedding feast) could any MAN tell the difference between the "you that you were" and the "you that you are"? I certainly hope so. I think our theology and doctrine must conform to this hope.

I hope to be made spotless and without wrinkle. I hope to have my temple, my tent, my body sanctified and to be made the eternal dwelling place of the remaining presence of the Most High. I hope this for each member and contributor of this thread (and for the full body of Christ, no matter how divided the appear at the moment) and frankly I suspect that this can not be done without each other. What do we know of the Valley of Bones except that we need to come together. Can two walk if they are not in agreement?

What attracted each of us to this forum anyway?

Of course a bride will want her house to be clean for her Groom. If there were to be any spot or blemish on her white wedding gown, how could she tolerate it? We have been given the authority to become sons of God. Is this not the promise? Are we not the children of the promise? I am not saying that I have obtained but we certainly don't want to shrug and say, "Impossible, harumph." <who would want to marry a old man like me anyway? The King of Glory? I can't look to my flesh if I am to believe THAT one, now can I?>

It almost seems to me that some here are saying that we must content ourselves to remain lepers, to be spiritual idolaters and not love Him with our whole hearts and with all our strength. But I do know better. That is not what is being said at all. But what is the hope of the glory of God within us? Is it to be the frog that was placed into the pot and then when the heat is turned up --- to become too lethargic to be able to escape?

Some will sing to me, "Sparrow, why is everything so black & white to you? It is the nature of Light and Darkness to be this way. There is no fight between light and dark - in the light, darkness can not exist. There is no conflict. Our desire is to continue in the light unto it's natural conclusion and I pray this for each here.

Is it lethargy that traps me in sin? Is it complacency? What does "holy" mean? Is God merely holy? Or is he HOLY, HOLY, HOLY? Are we to ignore His command to "Be thou holy because I am holy?" When we call ourselves the "called out ones" does this not mean that we are to continue in our coming out? To what end? Is this not the wedding feast we have all been invited to?

But no, some draw back. I do not say this of those who have posted here. But it is true none-the-less. The Light will show our deformity, our distress, our SIN! If we press on into the highness of our calling shall we not be exposed? How shall we do this? There is no friendship between light and darkness. Are we not told to run the race casting off (tossing down even as we run) those things that so easily beset us? And to what end? To be able to cross the finish line? What is the goal? To be like Him.

I see the tribulation that we stand together, ready to face from the world, as the very thing that will cause us to cling closer and closer together. Why am I told to endure trials? Why does what our brother James said -sing to me- throughout my lifetime?

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Lacking the ability to stop sinning would count, right? How can the sense of the language be maintained if we translate this to mean, "that you maybe be a sinner and complete, lacking nothing"???

Do not think that God will deny you the desire of your heart. What is our work? We are to believe on him whom was sent. Jesus called himself an apostle (sent one), the Apostle of God. We too have been sent. We are told to have this same mind as did Christ - who did not think it robbery to count himself equal to God, yes? Pointing to the sin that continues in my members will not rescind that command. I wax bold and ask, "know ye not that ye are gods?" I love reading the gospel of John with this in mind.

The Jews answered him, saying, 'For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God'.

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?" 'θεÌ / theos?'

If he called them theos, unto whom the word of Theos came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of Theos?"

This we cannot by searching find out to perfection, but we may know and believe the declarations of Christ, yes? cf. Joh 17:19 "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Are we not taught rightly that Egypt is to be seen as a type of sin and our bondage to sin? Was not Israel led out? Can I ever forget the parable of the 10 virgins? It might not this moment be the time when those virgins are shaken from slumber, but the message and declaration is true. There remains Faith, Hope and Love. Are we really hopeless? I say "Nay!" and would God! that my yea's be: yea and amen, my nay's be: nay and may it never be!

We know not what we shall be, but we shall be like Him. We are truly being transformed from glory to glory like He promised. It is an inward work and takes time. Are we speaking semantics here? Is it not just a matter of time?

Your servant,
~Sparrowhawke

 

[stranger]

Sparrowhawke wrote:

Not sure if you are quoting someone in your reply or not - if you use the reply then quote button it is clearer at least from my point of view.

Is this discussion mere semantics? Are we merely speaking about "when"?

Some are, but there are others who are not.

Here is the controversial text:

1 John 1:6-9 (New American Standard Bible)

6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

One simply cannot be a sinner and walk in the light as He (Jesus Christ) is in the light. Such a one walks in darkness. So for such a one to claim they have no sin is false.

Now how do we get to walk in the light as He is in the light. We have to confess our sins and be forgiven and cleansed of our sins. If some sin still remains then the condition of being cleansed from ALL our sins is not fulfilled. If it is fulfilled then then and only then can we walk in the light as HE is in the light.

To say that I have no sin is to say that I have never sinned, yes?

No, though I cannot understand why some will answer yes. I take it to mean that such a one has confessed, been forgiven and cleansed of ALL sins. When this is true then they can make the claim I have no sin but this is not a guanrantee that they won't sin and it certainly is not a claim that they have NEVER sinned.

Here an illustration about leprosy...

Jesus cured some lepers. A man cured of leprosy can claim 'I have no leprosy'. For him to claim (or someone else to claim) he has never had leprosy is false. The claim 'i have not leprosy' applies only to the present and does not insinuate that such a man will never again have leprosy.

It almost seems to me that some here are saying that we must content ourselves to remain lepers, to be spiritual idolaters and not love Him with our whole hearts and with all our strength. But I do know better. That is not what is being said at all. But what is the hope of the glory of God within us? Is it to be the frog that was placed into the pot and then when the heat is turned up --- to become too lethargic to be able to escape?

Some will sing to me, "Sparrow, why is everything so black & white to you? It is the nature of Light and Darkness to be this way. There is no fight between light and dark - in the light, darkness can not exist. There is no conflict. Our desire is to continue in the light unto it's natural conclusion and I pray this for each here.

Yes, that's well put - some are actually saying that God cannot cleanse a man from ALL sin in this life - maybe in the life to come but not in this life - which means that we cannot walk in the light as he is in the light in this light. I call this bringing an evil report of the land. Those that believe an evil report of the land face the prospect of falling in the wilderness because God sees it as sheer disobedience and unbelief. While this is a strong way to put it, and many will take offense, our upward calling in Jesus Christ is a struggle unto life or death.

blessings

 

[Cornelius]

Is this discussion mere semantics? Are we merely speaking about "when"?

To say that I have no sin is to say that I have never sinned, yes?
Can I see your heart? Can I see your spirit? Is your heart pure? Is your spirit holy?
Did our Father actually impart His Spirit to you?
If you were to adorn yourself with the wedding garment that is given (even to the beggars like me who are being dragged to the wedding feast) could any MAN tell the difference between the "you that you were" and the "you that you are"? I certainly hope so. I think our theology and doctrine must conform to this hope.

I hope to be made spotless and without wrinkle. I hope to have my temple, my tent, my body sanctified and to be made the eternal dwelling place of the remaining presence of the Most High. I hope this for each member and contributor of this thread (and for the full body of Christ, no matter how divided the appear at the moment) and frankly I suspect that this can not be done without each other. What do we know of the Valley of Bones except that we need to come together. Can two walk if they are not in agreement?

What attracted each of us to this forum anyway?

Of course a bride will want her house to be clean for her Groom. If there were to be any spot or blemish on her white wedding gown, how could she tolerate it? We have been given the authority to become sons of God. Is this not the promise? Are we not the children of the promise? I am not saying that I have obtained but we certainly don't want to shrug and say, "Impossible, harumph." <who would want to marry a old man like me anyway? The King of Glory? I can't look to my flesh if I am to believe THAT one, now can I?>

It almost seems to me that some here are saying that we must content ourselves to remain lepers, to be spiritual idolaters and not love Him with our whole hearts and with all our strength. But I do know better. That is not what is being said at all. But what is the hope of the glory of God within us? Is it to be the frog that was placed into the pot and then when the heat is turned up --- to become too lethargic to be able to escape?

Some will sing to me, "Sparrow, why is everything so black & white to you? It is the nature of Light and Darkness to be this way. There is no fight between light and dark - in the light, darkness can not exist. There is no conflict. Our desire is to continue in the light unto it's natural conclusion and I pray this for each here.

Is it lethargy that traps me in sin? Is it complacency? What does "holy" mean? Is God merely holy? Or is he HOLY, HOLY, HOLY? Are we to ignore His command to "Be thou holy because I am holy?" When we call ourselves the "called out ones" does this not mean that we are to continue in our coming out? To what end? Is this not the wedding feast we have all been invited to?

But no, some draw back. I do not say this of those who have posted here. But it is true none-the-less. The Light will show our deformity, our distress, our SIN! If we press on into the highness of our calling shall we not be exposed? How shall we do this? There is no friendship between light and darkness. Are we not told to run the race casting off (tossing down even as we run) those things that so easily beset us? And to what end? To be able to cross the finish line? What is the goal? To be like Him.

I see the tribulation that we stand together, ready to face from the world, as the very thing that will cause us to cling closer and closer together. Why am I told to endure trials? Why does what our brother James said -sing to me- throughout my lifetime?

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Lacking the ability to stop sinning would count, right? How can the sense of the language be maintained if we translate this to mean, "that you maybe be a sinner and complete, lacking nothing"???

Do not think that God will deny you the desire of your heart. What is our work? We are to believe on him whom was sent. Jesus called himself an apostle (sent one), the Apostle of God. We too have been sent. We are told to have this same mind as did Christ - who did not think it robbery to count himself equal to God, yes? Pointing to the sin that continues in my members will not rescind that command. I wax bold and ask, "know ye not that ye are gods?" I love reading the gospel of John with this in mind.

[quote="The 'Sent of Christ,' John in Jn 10:33-36":1243i1vx]The Jews answered him, saying, 'For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God'.

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?" 'θεÌ / theos?'

If he called them theos, unto whom the word of Theos came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of Theos?"

This we cannot by searching find out to perfection, but we may know and believe the declarations of Christ, yes? cf. Joh 17:19 "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Are we not taught rightly that Egypt is to be seen as a type of sin and our bondage to sin? Was not Israel led out? Can I ever forget the parable of the 10 virgins? It might not this moment be the time when those virgins are shaken from slumber, but the message and declaration is true. There remains Faith, Hope and Love. Are we really hopeless? I say "Nay!" and would God! that my yea's be: yea and amen, my nay's be: nay and may it never be!

We know not what we shall be, but we shall be like Him. We are truly being transformed from glory to glory like He promised. It is an inward work and takes time. Are we speaking semantics here? Is it not just a matter of time?

Your servant,
~Sparrowhawke[/quote:1243i1vx]

Bless you brother. This is such a good post and from your heart and in line with Scripture.

I 100% agree with you.

I also understand the problems that most have with understanding "perfection" or "being without sin". Its natural to look at ones life and say:"Oh but I cannot" . We tend to forget........."Yes but God can and Jesus has made it possible at the cross"

The battle is to come into line with God's Word and just to believe that HE is able (not us)

Thank you for your post.

Cornelius

 

[Sparkey]

stranger, thank you. I will pray about this and reply later.

 

[Cornelius]

Cornelius,

The One Faith, has three parts, qualities, faces as testified by both Paul and John. I am not aware of this manifold testimony of Jesus Christ through Peter, James or Jude. Their testimony is still true.

In the testimony through John it is grouped in one place as follows:
1 John 2:12-14
12 I write unto you, (my) little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil one. I have written unto you, little children, because ye know the Father.

14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the evil one. ASV

The testimony through Paul has three presentations of the faith as:
Justification---Righteousness as Imputed
Sanctification---Set apart for ministry and given gifts
Perfection---Being sacrificed through death
You are aware of the various testimonies through Paul where these three qualities of the manifold wisdom of God are presented. If you desire more Scriptural detail I will labor to present it.

May the Lord Jesus give us patience with the little children. Forgiveness/Justification as imputed unto them is sweet and they need this milk to prepare them for solid food. When someone in the congregation of believers begins to boast of their faith and they are still slaves to sin then the Lord gives us a different stance to them than the stance he gives us to the ones who are struggling under a load of the flesh and they feel its burden. Let us pray that the Lord will make them youthful and overcome the wicked one with the whole armor of God; and to put away worldly wisdom that leaves them in their sins.

Then may we all come into the fullness/perfection of the faith, and we will at the time set by the Father.
At that time the Father of our spirits, the Father of lights, gives us to know him who is from the beginning, giving us to become fathers to our fellow members of the body, even as Paul testified to giving birth to the Galatians(chapter 4:19). Not one of his chosen will fail, except the one who betrays his Lord for 30 pieces of silver and he was ordained for this from the foundation. It must needs be, but woe be to him by whom it comes.

Your fellow servant in Jesus Christ our Lord,
Joe

Thank you for your post Joe. Its full of mercy and understanding
C