Can I continue to support a pastor when I found out he is plagiarizing his sermons?

[gsarwjc]

I supported a pastor who is married to my niece. I sent him message to read Jeremiah 23:30. But I was condemned by my niece and no answer from him.

 

[Vinny37]

I supported a pastor who is married to my niece. I sent him message to read Jeremiah 23:30. But I was condemned by my niece and no answer from him.

You can and possibly should support him, but based on whether he is a true church leader, not on how he marshals sermons. Many church leaders have used material from others, to greater or lesser extent.

I’m chary of proof-texting, since it often skips context and even genre. Eg Jr.23:30, such prophets were not plagiarists, but were basically concocting their own group-speak, deciding by committee what they would claim to be from Yahweh, and thereby proclaiming a united but false message.

Is this pastor proclaiming a false gospel? Assess him first on substance. Secondly, if he is being lazy, reading out another’s work without proper attribution, he’s doing himself no real favour, even if he’d reading out a Billy Graham sermon. He might consider that to be honest enough, though you might disagree. But he might still be a genuine church leader with a love for Christ, and for his people, poor as a teacher but great as a pastor.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno

Pray look at the overall picture of how he does his job.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jeremiah 23:10-40 is about lying prophets and if you read the last two verses this pastor is in trouble with the Lord no matter what you say to him he will probably ignore you. I would suggest praying for him and maybe discussing with him the concerns you have, but do it with love.

Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

 

[Free]

I supported a pastor who is married to my niece. I sent him message to read Jeremiah 23:30. But I was condemned by my niece and no answer from him.

If he is plagiarizing his sermons, then I would say no, you shouldn't support him. First, if he is passing them off as his, then that is very dishonest and shows a lack of integrity. Second, one of the qualifications of an elder is that he is able to teach (1 Tim 3:2; 2 Tim 2:4), but if he is simply reading out loud what someone else has written, then that isn't teaching; anyone can do that. Third, Paul encourages Timothy to be one who can rightly handle the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), and that is especially important for those in ministry. But plagiarizing sermons shows that one is not able to rightly handle the word of truth.

At best it's being lazy and dishonest.

 

[hawkman]

I supported a pastor who is married to my niece. I sent him message to read Jeremiah 23:30. But I was condemned by my niece and no answer from him.

I am curious , could you give examples of the plagiarizing ? How did you figure out the pastor was plagiarizing ?

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[Tenchi]

I supported a pastor who is married to my niece. I sent him message to read Jeremiah 23:30. But I was condemned by my niece and no answer from him.

Four years ago, the senior pastor of my home church was caught preaching a sermon someone else had written. He apologized to the entire church but it was a...half-hearted apology, it seemed to me. Many in the church wondered what the fuss was about, actually.

The internet has made pastors lazy (not all, of course), inducing them to simply Google-mine the 'net for sermon material, slapping together a message in two or three hours from the work of other spiritual leaders/teachers/writers. It is a dwindling group of men who pore over Scripture daily for many hours and from the fruit of their own deep, prolonged and prayerful investigation of God's word, feed the "sheep" of their flock. This is, though, what a church is financially supporting when they call a man to serve as their pastor. His financial needs are met by the church so that he can give himself wholeheartedly and daily to prayer and study/ministry of the word (Acts 6:4; 2 Timothy 2:15; Hebrews 5:14).

A big part of the reason many pastors go online to mine for sermon material is the pressure they feel to "defer to the expert" in their teaching. The average pastor today is competing with the online universe that offers to their "flock" the very "best" pastors, the most credentialed, the most "seasoned" of men and - apparently - used of God, men with huge church campuses and congregations of many thousands, authors of video and book series, commentaries and study Bibles, who've traveled the globe preaching God's word and are maybe even founders of their own seminaries. How can an average pastor in a small-to-mid-sized church gain the ear of his congregants who are taking in the preaching/teaching of these "great men" of God? How can the average pastor make them confident in his own teaching? How can he distract his congregants from the myriad of "better" voices gushing out of the 'net upon them so that he might teach them from God's word, as he has been called to do?

Well, the simplest, best way is to just cite the teaching of the "big name" preachers and teachers. The average pastor believes he can't compete with them, so he "joins" them, becoming a parrot, more or less, of their teaching. The thing is, though, that a seminary degree doesn't confer true spiritual depth upon a man (or woman), nor does producing a book or video series, or even starting a seminary. None of the Twelve were "credentialed"; they knew nothing of Church History, hamartiology, eschatology or biblical archaeology, Christian philosophy/apologetics, or the four views of the Atonement, or homiletics, or Christian counseling, or whatever. But they knew Jesus and were filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, and these things more than made up for any formal "credentialing."

At its heart, Christianity isn't about credentials but about knowing God, walking with Him everyday in love, joy, peace and power, transformed by Him so that Christ might be increasingly manifested in and through them (1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3; Philippians 3:7-11; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11; Galatians 2:20). Any and every believer can be an "expert" in these things - the welder, child-care worker, fast-food restaurant server, or farmer, or whomever - without ever setting foot in a seminary, or writing a book, or being a 'net "influencer." All children of God can know Him deeply and powerfully, they can be an "expert" in walking with Him, without having the slightest clue about biblical archaeology, or ancient Hebrew, or first-century Jewish culture. And they should be expert in fellowshipping with God (Hebrews 5:11-14; Ephesians 4:11-16), discipling new believers, showing them how to enjoy God richly and transformatively every day, too.

The Church must shrug off this idea that credentials=spiritual maturity. Ravi Zacharias (and others) have demonstrated that this isn't so. What marks a man able to pastor well is the fruit of the Spirit in evidence in his life, the character of Christ manifesting in and through him in spiritual power and in a deep hunger for, and knowledge of, God's word, not just in an academic sense, but in personal, daily, joyful experience. (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9; James 3:17-18; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11) One of the very important effects of looking for genuine spiritual maturity, rather than mere credentialing, in pastors will be that churches who look for it will be more likely to install true lovers of God, genuinely spiritually mature men, over them rather than mere religious academics who themselves are bound under the view that the most credentialed have the greatest right to say "thus says the Lord."

 

[gsarwjc]

I am curious , could you give examples of the plagiarizing ? How did you figure out the pastor was plagiarizing ?

​

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He told me he has permission from the website who handles this Well Known Baptist Pastor in Atlanta, I will call him Great Pastor. But what he showed was copy the website Share and the icon like Facebook, Twitter etc. and told me that's where I got the permission. I told him when you share someone's work you hit the icon like Facebook and share it and it will show in Facebook where the message came from. And I told him if you will copy his sermons give this Great Pastor that I have been following and watching ever since I have known him a proper credit. I told him say in honor of Great Pastor, or Source: by Great Pastor, reference by: Great Pastor. But he thinks he did nothing wrong. But what he did is copied the entire message "verbatim", erase the name of the website and name where it came from and made it look like his own work. And the worst part he also use Apps like Timber, Instagram etc and said as long as the message was delivered. I was wondering why his congregation was responding to his message with an icon prayer in Messenger all of them. I was the only one who thank him for his message. But then I realized I know the message came from Great Pastor! I think he had a medical issues before but even then he was already doing that, to this day he continued to do so . He did not stopped. I read the Great Pastor's daily devotional and watch his sermons all the time. But since this pastor took over the sermons of the pastor I've been following and watching ever since he became a pastor and died. I stopped reading this great Pastor's message. I could not stomach watching him and reading his devotions when I know that someone stole his sermons. This pastor also told his congregation and even me that the Lord is Coming Back in 2041. According to him in 1948 the Jews came back to Israel and the Lord Jesus was saying about 100 years. He computed 1948+100 years equals 2041. He is a Senior Pastor, meek and humble. Maybe because of his previous medical condition his associate pastors preach all the time. He was preaching the 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus in his country where he lives. I said, "I am very sorry" to him and his wife and told him if I've done wrong I am very sorry, but no response and his wife condemned me. I said I am very sorry to the two of them many times and I have explained how I feel and stand for what I believe. But his wife continue to condemn me so I closed my FB. Thank you for all the replies and prayers. But most of all thank God for this forum. I have shared what it's in my heart without condemnation. Great Forum. God bless you and family always.

 

[gsarwjc]

If he is plagiarizing his sermons, then I would say no, you shouldn't support him. First, if he is passing them off as his, then that is very dishonest and shows a lack of integrity. Second, one of the qualifications of an elder is that he is able to teach (1 Tim 3:2; 2 Tim 2:4), but if he is simply reading out loud what someone else has written, then that isn't teaching; anyone can do that. Third, Paul encourages Timothy to be one who can rightly handle the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), and that is especially important for those in ministry. But plagiarizing sermons shows that one is not able to rightly handle the word of truth.

At best it's being lazy and dishonest.

 

[gsarwjc]

I have explained everything to hawkman how I figured out he is plagiarizing. I just want to thank you. I have prayed and asked the Lord to give me confirmation if I will continue to support him. Your response helped me made my decision. I have closed my FB. God bless you and family always. Thanks again.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Tenchi …

Your observation about big time pastors being regarded as experts intrigues me. A local megachurch pastor has a consulting that supposedly helps further Gods work…

By growing churches. I dunno he’s just one example. And looking at society as a whole…

There are now organization experts and cleaning experts and childhood experts and marriage experts and work experts and…

It’s apparently to be expected with the progression of modern society and the secularization and breakdown of community bonds that go hand in hand with this process. Or at least that’s what a sociologist writes in an article I skimmed lol

I dunno rambling. Good points…

 

[WIP]

Let's remember to stay focused on answering the OP's questions. Thanks.

 

[ari.sketch]

How good is your relationship with them?
If he is plagiarizing his sermons, it could just be he needed help in writing his own(?), is it possible to try and encourage him to be himself and share his own story from his own walk with the Lord?
It could be he just needed encouragement to be more himself and not try to be someone else

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
gsarwjc, it feels wrong because it is wrong. Plajerism is always wrong. It is stealing. Further if the material is being passed off as original thought (no recognition of source), then it is also a lie. Do you want to follow the teachings of a person who lies and steals? I don't. What can you do?
1. Pray for God's guidance.
.2. This is serious. Make sure you are right about this. Are there transcripts or recordings you can use and compare teachings. Is what your pastor said word for word, or just similar? Big difference!
3. Is he giving credit vaguely; perhaps saying, " Its been said . . . ", or maybe, "I read somewhere that . . . ". Granted this is only tacit credit. But it does count as credit.
4. Find out if you are the only one who noticed this. If others know and don't object, you may want to find another church. Chances are that church is corrupted.
5. If you find there are others disturbed by this, go as a group, or send two or three that represent your group, to your church elders with your concerns. If they are true men of God, they will know what to do and how to act upon this.
Finally, don't let this affect your faith or steal your joy. You hang in there and watch God do His work. I have seen a church break apart over a similar circumstance. It also possible for it come together and become strong. I pray your church will become stronger. I hope this helps. Keep walking everybody.May God bless,
Taz

 

[jeremiah1five]

I supported a pastor who is married to my niece. I sent him message to read Jeremiah 23:30. But I was condemned by my niece and no answer from him.

A pastor or any believer who is not inspired of the Scripture should be observed.
And your niece seems devoid of any wisdom.

 

[PrimFinallyFoundGod!]

I wouldn't. Sermons are supposed to be genuine. Copying a sermon is like copying someone's homework on a VERY important subject. It means you don't care about the subject, you just want the points (or money, in this case)

You were wise to post this. That is the Holy Spirit

 

[WIP]

gsarwjc, it feels wrong because it is wrong. Plajerism is always wrong. It is stealing.

gsarwjc, it's not plagiarism to use someone else's work so long as permission has been granted and the user is not claiming credit for it.

 

[jasonc]

Four years ago, the senior pastor of my home church was caught preaching a sermon someone else had written. He apologized to the entire church but it was a...half-hearted apology, it seemed to me. Many in the church wondered what the fuss was about, actually.

The internet has made pastors lazy (not all, of course), inducing them to simply Google-mine the 'net for sermon material, slapping together a message in two or three hours from the work of other spiritual leaders/teachers/writers. It is a dwindling group of men who pore over Scripture daily for many hours and from the fruit of their own deep, prolonged and prayerful investigation of God's word, feed the "sheep" of their flock. This is, though, what a church is financially supporting when they call a man to serve as their pastor. His financial needs are met by the church so that he can give himself wholeheartedly and daily to prayer and study/ministry of the word (Acts 6:4; 2 Timothy 2:15; Hebrews 5:14).

A big part of the reason many pastors go online to mine for sermon material is the pressure they feel to "defer to the expert" in their teaching. The average pastor today is competing with the online universe that offers to their "flock" the very "best" pastors, the most credentialed, the most "seasoned" of men and - apparently - used of God, men with huge church campuses and congregations of many thousands, authors of video and book series, commentaries and study Bibles, who've traveled the globe preaching God's word and are maybe even founders of their own seminaries. How can an average pastor in a small-to-mid-sized church gain the ear of his congregants who are taking in the preaching/teaching of these "great men" of God? How can the average pastor make them confident in his own teaching? How can he distract his congregants from the myriad of "better" voices gushing out of the 'net upon them so that he might teach them from God's word, as he has been called to do?

Well, the simplest, best way is to just cite the teaching of the "big name" preachers and teachers. The average pastor believes he can't compete with them, so he "joins" them, becoming a parrot, more or less, of their teaching. The thing is, though, that a seminary degree doesn't confer true spiritual depth upon a man (or woman), nor does producing a book or video series, or even starting a seminary. None of the Twelve were "credentialed"; they knew nothing of Church History, hamartiology, eschatology or biblical archaeology, Christian philosophy/apologetics, or the four views of the Atonement, or homiletics, or Christian counseling, or whatever. But they knew Jesus and were filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, and these things more than made up for any formal "credentialing."

At its heart, Christianity isn't about credentials but about knowing God, walking with Him everyday in love, joy, peace and power, transformed by Him so that Christ might be increasingly manifested in and through them (1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3; Philippians 3:7-11; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11; Galatians 2:20). Any and every believer can be an "expert" in these things - the welder, child-care worker, fast-food restaurant server, or farmer, or whomever - without ever setting foot in a seminary, or writing a book, or being a 'net "influencer." All children of God can know Him deeply and powerfully, they can be an "expert" in walking with Him, without having the slightest clue about biblical archaeology, or ancient Hebrew, or first-century Jewish culture. And they should be expert in fellowshipping with God (Hebrews 5:11-14; Ephesians 4:11-16), discipling new believers, showing them how to enjoy God richly and transformatively every day, too.

The Church must shrug off this idea that credentials=spiritual maturity. Ravi Zacharias (and others) have demonstrated that this isn't so. What marks a man able to pastor well is the fruit of the Spirit in evidence in his life, the character of Christ manifesting in and through him in spiritual power and in a deep hunger for, and knowledge of, God's word, not just in an academic sense, but in personal, daily, joyful experience. (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9; James 3:17-18; 2 Corinthians 4:7-11) One of the very important effects of looking for genuine spiritual maturity, rather than mere credentialing, in pastors will be that churches who look for it will be more likely to install true lovers of God, genuinely spiritually mature men, over them rather than mere religious academics who themselves are bound under the view that the most credentialed have the greatest right to say "thus says the Lord."

My pastor isn't perfect but he does mention when he quotes or uses a commentary . Outside of that he uses due diligence.but yes I can see that .

The Internet is a good resource but it also makes ones lazy .even with historical stuff I see it . I don't have the time or money to pour or scour genealogy

 

[gsarwjc]

Hey All,
gsarwjc, it feels wrong because it is wrong. Plajerism is always wrong. It is stealing. Further if the material is being passed off as original thought (no recognition of source), then it is also a lie. Do you want to follow the teachings of a person who lies and steals? I don't. What can you do?
1. Pray for God's guidance.
.2. This is serious. Make sure you are right about this. Are there transcripts or recordings you can use and compare teachings. Is what your pastor said word for word, or just similar? Big difference!
3. Is he giving credit vaguely; perhaps saying, " Its been said . . . ", or maybe, "I read somewhere that . . . ". Granted this is only tacit credit. But it does count as credit.
4. Find out if you are the only one who noticed this. If others know and don't object, you may want to find another church. Chances are that church is corrupted.
5. If you find there are others disturbed by this, go as a group, or send two or three that represent your group, to your church elders with your concerns. If they are true men of God, they will know what to do and how to act upon this.
Finally, don't let this affect your faith or steal your joy. You hang in there and watch God do His work. I have seen a church break apart over a similar circumstance. It also possible for it come together and become strong. I pray your church will become stronger. I hope this helps. Keep walking everybody.May God bless,
Taz

Hello, sorry for the late response. The only reason I found out was he added me in his FB group sermon account. That was his mistake because the Sermon/Daily Devotional he used everyday to share it to his congregation is the same message from the Pastor that I've watched for so many years, I've watched this Pastor, I will call now my Pastor on YouTube, his website, on TV and read his Daily Devotion. This Pastor used the same Devotion that I've read everyday, same sermon I've watched and heard everyday, from my Pastor verbatim. I have noticed too that his members did not say anything but all of them showed Two hands in a prayer icon. I know how to paint using MS Paint. I drew a picture and it looked like an open Bible and quoted Jeremiah 23:30, which says, "Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, says the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbor" posted it on Facebook and tagged him and his wife. I did not mentioned his name at all. He responded saying he has permission and showed my Pastor's Website and Share: with an icon FB, Twitter, Instagram etc. That was his explanation of getting a permission. I said that's not permission, they have allowed you to share so when you share on FB it will show that it came from him. He never apologized and stop talking to me. He still used my Pastor's message without a proper credit to my Pastor that I respect and love so much. My Pastor died on April 18, 2023, age 90. I have asked God to forgive me if what I did was wrong. I also apologized to both him and my niece for bringing it to their attention that he was plagiarizing. My niece made statements like I am legalistic and unforgiving. He just graduated with a Master in Theology. I was wondering why with all the degrees that he has that he copied the work of someone who was already dead. I rest my case. Thank you for your suggestions, I really appreciate it. God bless you, this forum and each staff and the members always.

 

[Johann!@#]

@gsarwjc, it's not plagiarism to use someone else's work so long as permission has been granted and the user is not claiming credit for it.

Thank you for answering this with tact-about a year ago I stumbled upon Dr. Bob Utley and his hermeneutical writings-I used to be a Calvinist-not any more and hope I can share his work here as well and give credit that it is from him.
Johann