Can it be proved, without a doubt, there's no free will spoken of in the Bible

[childeye]

Apparrantly the steward of this thread is not going to provide a definition for freewill. So I will take the view that I have that the word free in front of will is relative and apply it as such. So Yes there is a freewill identified in the bible wherein one sees the Truth about sin so as to be free from the deception that sin is. This would mean we recognize that the fault of man is that we distrusted our maker and this is vanity for He made us not we make Him.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Rebekah...

Say What? Eventide that whole story was about how God made everything happen.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.. the servant (a type of the Spirit) was told plainly that he would be clear in the matter if the woman was not willing to go with him.. and Rebekah had to decide for herself if she would leave her family and go with him to where Isaac was.

No doubt the Spirit of God is properous in bringing many people to Christ.. those who do trust in the message of the gospel and who follow the Spirit of God.

 

[childeye]

Re: Rebekah...

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.. the servant (a type of the Spirit) was told plainly that he would be clear in the matter if the woman was not willing to go with him.. and Rebekah had to decide for herself if she would leave her family and go with him to where Isaac was.

No doubt the Spirit of God is properous in bringing many people to Christ.. those who do trust in the message of the gospel and who follow the Spirit of God.

I agree the servant as in the Holy Spirit is the one procuring a bride, but it is uncanny that the woman says exactly what needed to be said. The attitude of the bride that says yes is exemplified in her desire to serve and as this is her Godly character, it can't be said she would choose to be of another character. To he who hath more will be given. Good post Eventide.

 

[Jam]

Had to remark on this. Can you believe without a doubt that we should treat others
as we would want to be treated?

I could believe it without a doubt, yes. I would never claim to know it without a doubt, though, as absolute knowledge is impossible. We never know anything - not even that the universe exists - beyond doubt entirely.

This point isn't precisely relevant here, though: for all intents and purposes I would argue that it can be proven that there is no free will mentioned in the Bible. I merely mentioned my lack of absolute knowledge/proof in anything in order to justify the fact that I didn't say that lack of free will could be disproved absolutely.

 

[childeye]

I could believe it without a doubt, yes. I would never claim to know it without a doubt, though, as absolute knowledge is impossible. We never know anything - not even that the universe exists - beyond doubt entirely.

This point isn't precisely relevant here, though: for all intents and purposes I would argue that it can be proven that there is no free will mentioned in the Bible. I merely mentioned my lack of absolute knowledge/proof in anything in order to justify the fact that I didn't say that lack of free will could be disproved absolutely.

I understand your position, after all, everything is built on faith. So please excuse the semantics, but still, if you could believe it without a doubt, it may just be you actually know, you just don't know it yet, or believe you know it. Whichever. After all there must be that thing that in all reality exists for there to be doubt of.

 

[mythunderstood]

Reba, do you think man chooses to do those lusts because he has to or because he wants to?



Would you say this means man is free to choose to disobey God after he's saved or not?
Conversely, do you think the unsaved are never free to obey the conscience God gave all men?



Must the servant of sin or the servant of God always obey his master?
It seems to me that we see examples of both not ALWAYS obeying...thus man has the ability to choose.
We see the ungodly following his conscience at times, and we see the godly still listening to their flesh at times.

Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

For a guy who doesn't believe in the Scripture, you sure like to quote it a lot. Are Ya just having fun???

 

[childeye]

For a guy who doesn't believe in the Scripture, you sure like to quote it a lot. Are Ya just having fun???

Don't be a silly Grubal. This mythunderstood provided appropriate scripture which is beneficial for all of us.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Don't be a silly Grubal. This mythunderstood provided appropriate scripture which is beneficial for all of us.

To each his own, but I prefer to listen to someone who actually believes the subject in which they have an opinion. Not someone "showing off" what little knowledge they have picked up here or there...Either he is "mocking Christianity," is seeking, or just plain "showing off."

 

[glorydaz]

To each his own, but I prefer to listen to someone who actually believes the subject in which they have an opinion. Not someone "showing off" what little knowledge they have picked up here or there...Either he is "mocking Christianity," is seeking, or just plain "showing off."

Satan, himself, can quote Scripture with the best of them.

We see how the Lord handled him in the wilderness.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Satan, himself, can quote Scripture with the best of them.

We see how the Lord handled him in the wilderness.

Good example Glory...

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Rebekah...

I think that the opposite is proved in the scriptures.. especially with respect to the Lord building His church based upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the son of the living God..

Even though we're taught that the church of God was hidden in times past, the story was foretold long ago in Genesis, long before the church of God came into existence at Pentecost.

The story of Abraham sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son Isaac.. tells us the story.. and when we read that living and powerful story, it speaks to the fact that Rebekah was 'willing' to follow the messenger and to go to where Isaac was in faith.. trusting that the messenger was true.

It's as if God knew that 'freewill' would be a hot topic and put it in there to show us the truth of the matter in a simple story.

Excellent example. Here's another one.

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

 

[childeye]

Re: Rebekah...

Excellent example. Here's another one.

The first example by Eventide does not take into account the Love of God moving Rebecca. Your example only shows Soloman being told he needs to not abandon God lest God abandon him. As God is Love this is not an option placed before him as you take it to be, but instruction to be heeded.

 

[mythunderstood]

To each his own, but I prefer to listen to someone who actually believes the subject in which they have an opinion. Not someone "showing off" what little knowledge they have picked up here or there...Either he is "mocking Christianity," is seeking, or just plain "showing off."

Its called "debate" and this is the apologetics forum. Who would you be "defending the faith" from if everyone believed as you do? There are other christians who believe in the bible, yet also interpret it the same way I do. So, addressing the OP with appropriate scripture constitutes "mocking" or even "showing off"?:eeeekkk Boy, maybe you should think about posting in the christian "only" forum if appropriately responding to a post gets under your skin so bad:.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Its called "debate" and this is the apologetics forum. Who would you be "defending the faith" from if everyone believed as you do? There are other christians who believe in the bible, yet also interpret it the same way I do. So, addressing the OP with appropriate scripture constitutes "mocking" or even "showing off"?:eeeekkk Boy, maybe you should think about posting in the christian "only" forum if appropriately responding to a post gets under your skin so bad:.

I remind you of one "extremely" relevant fact, your not a Christian, you don't believe in the Scriptures you use, so what's your point?? What's your mission here...

 

[mythunderstood]

I remind you of one "extremely" relevant fact, your not a Christian, you don't believe in the Scriptures you use, so what's your point?? What's your mission here...

I didn't realize that one had to be a christian in order to participate in apologetics. : Obviously there would be nothing to defend if everyone believed the same as you. Now, I realize that when some people can't successfully address the topic at hand they resort to attacking the poster or changing the topic. Asking why I am here and telling me that I am "showing off" or other such nonsense has no relevance to the topic. Why can't you just stick to the topic and "defend the faith"?

 

[childeye]

Mythunderstood, Please excuse the manners of us on Christian forums.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Rebekah...

The first example by Eventide does not take into account the Love of God moving Rebecca. Your example only shows Soloman being told he needs to not abandon God lest God abandon him. As God is Love this is not an option placed before him as you take it to be, but instruction to be heeded.

Not an option? Of course it's an option.

The Lord may move in someone's heart, but He does not counter-act their will. Rebekah was given a choice to wait a few days or go. She chose to go.

And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go. And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the LORD hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master. And they said, We will call the damsel, and enquire at her mouth. And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.

God's purposes are often twarted by man. I'll give you a couple of examples.

God's purpose for the lawyers and pharisees was good, but they rejected it.

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Here we see God's will was thwarted by man's decisions and God's destiny for a man was changed.

2And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people.

Jesus, Himself, could have called in twelve legions of angels had He chosen not to go through with the cross. He was tempted like as we are. In fact, His temptation in the wilderness would have been a farce had Jesus not had the ability to choose. Just something for you to think about.......

 

[glorydaz]

Mythunderstood, Please excuse the manners of us on Christian forums.

Odd, you encourage francisdesales bad manners as I recall. ;)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Odd, you encourage francisdesales bad manners as I recall. ;)

YEP, THAT'S true