Can it be proved, without a doubt, there's no free will spoken of in the Bible

[reba]

Reba, do you think man chooses to do those lusts because he has to or because he wants to?

My answer for you Daz is the scripture.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Servant in this verse.....
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.


We Christians sin, yet our servitude is unto Him. Because we have been bought, Praise the Lord! We repent, He forgives. The unsaved do not repent they see no need to they are already condemned. (John 3:18) They are servants (slaves) of sin...

Not that 'they' cannot be purchased.


We have been doing plumbing here in the old house for 2 days sorry about being so grumpy last nite.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Can it be proved, without a doubt, ther,e's no free will spoken of in the Bible

So, then, your own statement that you're "not condoning nor advocating that God gives humanity Carte Blanche to commit whatever heinous evil they so desire" was wrong? God giving humanity "Carte Blanche to commit whatever heinous evil" we want is giving us the right to choose. It's clear you don't believe that we have the right to choose whatever we want, and we agree that humans have the capacity/ability to choose sin; so, I really don't know what it is you're disputing.


You're doing what most people who recoil against Calvinism do: argue against it by arguing against hypercalvinism. The scripture says that God predestined those whom He would save (and that He then called, justified, sanctified, and glorified them); it doesn't say He predestined everyone else to not be saved (though they certainly aren't going to be saved). And even if you argue that He predestines both, so what? If God didn't choose to save some, no one would be saved because we can't save ourselves. But, I'm not going to discuss this with you any further in this thread because it is taking us off the topic of the thread. Let's just stick to the topic of the thread here.

Well, no, that can't be right. The passage says that the gift is not of ourselves; it wouldn't make sense for Paul to say that grace is not of ourselves since grace is unmerited favor. No, the phrase "and that not of yourselves, but is the gift of God" refers to the word that comes directly before it (faith). But, again, this is not relevant to the thread.

Calvinists refer to the grace that is offered to all as "common grace," and distinguishes it from "saving grace."

And unless God specifically chose to save particular individuals, no one would be saved because humans are born spiritually dead and absolutely cannot will themselves back to life. Jesus said in Matthew 19 about salvation that "With man this is impossible." Paul said that our salvation (by grace through faith) is not of ourselves but is the gift of God. In other words, there is nothing we can ever do to cause our own salvation. Again, dead people can't will themselves back to life. To say that humans somehow have the capacity, on their own, to will themselves saved is saying that dead people can will themselves back to life and, therefore, that Paul lied when he said that we were dead in trespasses and sins.

Even the faith to believe is the gift of God that comes through hearing the word of God.

Again, all this other stuff is getting us off the topic of this thread. Bringing us back on topic, I'll say what I said earlier, that there isn't so much as a single passage of scripture that says there is or isn't "free will," but that the views one way or the other are merely interpretations of various scriptures pulled together. What you and others describe as "free will" is merely the definition of "will" (the capacity/ability to choose).

I'm afraid you don't know what your talking about. You misinterpret what I say, to your own "advantage" that's not a "fair" thing to do." Your not playing the game properly, but, your only here to argue and to cause "contention" Your the new guy on the block, and your coming off a little to "brash" and antagonistic. So, I bid you goodbye, I'll not play your "argumentative" game any longer...Go argue with someone else my young friend...I didn't read ALL of your post, (just the beginning) and knew from that, where you were going...

 

[glorydaz]

Your question has nothing to do with whether the "will" (the capacity to choose) is "free" or, more to the point of this thread, whether it can be proved, without a doubt, that there's no free will spoken of in the Bible.

I will repeat my question. If God puts on the record that we are to choose life, which He does, wouldn't the onus then be on us to choose? Would a righteous God burden us with a responsibilty we were not ABLE to carry out?

 

[glorydaz]

But, again, are we referring to the capacity/ability to choose (will) or the right to choose ("free" will)? Freedom necessitates having rights; there is no freedom without rights. If man's will is free, then he has the right to choose evil. If he has the right to choose evil then how can God punish him for exercising that right, particularly if (as is often presumed) God gave man free will?

LOL Common sense should answer that one for you.

If you tell your child to clean his room, and he refuses. You then say, "Well, it's your choice. You can obey and clean your room, or you will suffer the consequences for your disobedience. If it's a trip to the woodshed, then the choice becomes.....clean your room or go to the woodshed. The responsibility is placed on the child to obey or disobey, and the consequences are merely a result of the choices made.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I will repeat my question. If God puts on the record that we are to choose life, which He does, wouldn't the onus then be on us to choose? Would a righteous God burden us with a responsibilty we were not ABLE to carry out?

A totally "logical" conclusion. AMEN!!!

 

[glorydaz]

I'll approach this from another angle and say that we don't have "free will" because our will is enslaved to our sinful nature. I doubt you're willing to do so, but I recommend reading Martin Luther's The Bondage of the Will (http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm).

It didn't take me long to see where Luther has erred in his thinking.

Man does not have a "sin nature". Man has a free will that allows him to choose to obey or disobey God's commands.

Sin came into the WORLD and death by sin. Sin did not come into man at Adam's eviction from the garden of Eden.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Man's so called "sin nature" is refuted by the life of Christ here on earth. He had both a divine nature, which He set aside, and a human nature by which He was perfectly able to resist sin, and had no sin. This idea of man having a sin nature is the beginning of many errors in doctrine that have happened since the church came into existance.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

It didn't take me long to see where Luther has erred in his thinking.

Man does not have a "sin nature". Man has a free will that allows him to choose to obey or disobey God's commands.

Sin came into the WORLD and death by sin. Sin did not come into man at Adam's eviction from the garden of Eden.


Man's so called "sin nature" is refuted by the life of Christ here on earth. He had both a divine nature, which He set aside, and a human nature by which He was perfectly able to resist sin, and had no sin. This idea of man having a sin nature is the beginning of many errors in doctrine that have happened since the church came into existance.

That's true. Man "has" a "choice" to sin or not to sin (as Shakespeare would have put it) Humanity was created with a free will to choose. When I was a small child of perhaps seven or eight, some friends of mine wanted to steal some candy from a store, well, I knew this was wrong and I said no to the temptation. I disregarded peer pressure and "choose" not to steal (sin) I didn't make this decision based upon religious reasons, my family and myself weren't religious people. (we didn't attend church) I had a "choice" to make and I decided "not to sin." If I had a "sin nature and was controlled by sin, then how was I able to, "choose" not to sin?? It's because we all are tempted but we don't always "choose" sin.

 

[Chan]

LOL Common sense should answer that one for you.

If you tell your child to clean his room, and he refuses. You then say, "Well, it's your choice. You can obey and clean your room, or you will suffer the consequences for your disobedience. If it's a trip to the woodshed, then the choice becomes.....clean your room or go to the woodshed. The responsibility is placed on the child to obey or disobey, and the consequences are merely a result of the choices made.

It is inconsiderate of you to be so condescending as to suggest that "common sense" should answer the question.

As for the child in your example you and I both know that we're not giving the child the right to choose not to clean his room, since the child will be punished for making the choice not to clean his room. So also, God doesn't give us the right to sin.

The capacity to choose is not the right to choose.

 

[Chan]

I will repeat my question. If God puts on the record that we are to choose life, which He does, wouldn't the onus then be on us to choose? Would a righteous God burden us with a responsibilty we were not ABLE to carry out?

Actually, that particular command in the Old Testament was written for us, it was written for Israel. If you're going to appropriate that particular command from the Law of Moses then you are obligated to obey the entire Law of Moses. You don't get to pick and choose.

And, yes, God did "burden us" with a responsibility we are not able to carry out: we have a responsibility to obey God's laws (and I'm not referring to the Law of Moses here) and a responsibility not to sin. Are any of us capable of perfectly obeying God's laws? Are any of us sinless? Obviously not. What was it Paul said in Romans? There is none who does good, none who seeks after God, and all have sinned and fall short of God's glory.

We are sinners by nature - born, as Paul said, dead in trespasses and sins. The thoughts of man's heart are only evil continually, we're told in Genesis. Jesus told the rich young ruler that there is no one good but God. Consequently, no human being on his own will ever choose God. No one can come to Him unless God draws him, we're told in John. Salvation is entirely God's doing and is given freely as a gift to those whom He chose from before the foundation of the world.

But we're starting to stray off the topic here.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

But you and I both know that we're not giving the child the RIGHT to choose not to clean his room, since the child will be punished for making the choice not to clean his room.

The capacity to choose is not the right to choose.

If what you say is true then, if God saw that we were about to sin, He would stop us from making that "choice" but obviously He does not...Since we have the ability to "choose" sin we don't need the "right," because were free willed to choose. Now if we sin, God will judge accordingly...

 

[Chan]

Re: Can it be proved, without a doubt, ther,e's no free will spoken of in the Bible

I'm afraid you don't know what your talking about.

Talk about being argumentative and antagonistic!

You misinterpret what I say, to your own "advantage" that's not a "fair" thing to do."

Then tell me what I misinterpreted and how I misinterpreted and then help me to interpret it correctly.

Your not playing the game properly, but, your only here to argue and to cause "contention"

What game? I wasn't aware there was a game.

Your the new guy on the block, and your coming off a little to "brash" and antagonistic. So, I bid you goodbye, I'll not play your "argumentative" game any longer...Go argue with someone else my young friend...I didn't read ALL of your post, (just the beginning) and knew from that, where you were going...

So, pointing out the areas where you and I agree is being "brash" and "antagonistic"? Asking questions in order to understand what you're saying is "brash" and "antagonistic"? The fact that you decided not to read all of what I posted and, instead, presumed to know where I was going, is disrespectful and definitely not the way to "hear" what the other person is saying. Do you cut people off in their conversations out in the real world because you just "know" where they're going and don't want to hear it?

As for your condescending "young friend," comment, how old are you exactly?

I'm just going to add one more thing here. We agree more than we disagree; I'm sorry that you have trouble acknowledging that.

 

[glorydaz]

Thus, God doesn't give man the right to choose and, thus, doesn't give man "free" will.

As I said earlier, we agree on this point. What exactly is it that you're disputing?

This part is not relevant to the discussion, but we partly disagree. While we cannot come to God without first hearing the word (as Paul said in Romans), receiving the conviction of the Spirit (though there's really more to it than that: we must also be regenerated), and putting our trust in Christ (by the faith that is, itself, the gift of God - see Ephesians 2:8-9), God did, in fact, choose from before the foundation of the world those whom He would save (see Ephesians 1:4-5; that doesn't mean, however that He chose everyone else to not be saved, He merely didn't choose them to be saved).

You're basing your whole argument on a faulty premise. Several of them, actually.

Who were chosen from the "foundation" of the World? - The prophets and apostles.
They are the "we" and "us" Paul speaks of in the first part of Eph. 1.
The "ye"'s are the rest of the believers (the building or the body of Christ).

Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: (Amos 3:7 - "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.")

The apostles and prophets are the foundation, with Christ as the chief corner stone.

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

This is speaking of the dispensation of grace which was not made know before, but was revealed to the prophets and apostles. They are the foundation...chosen from the foundation.

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

 

[Chan]

If what you say is true then

What specific statement of mine are you referring to?

if God saw that we were about to sin, He would stop us from making that "choice" but obviously He does not

Why should he stop us?

...Since we have the ability to "choose" sin

What's it going to take to get it through to you that we agree on this point? You keep harping on this over and over and over again. We agree that humans have the capacity/ability to choose sin; but this capacity to choose is the definition of "will," not of "free will."

we don't need the "right," because were free willed to choose.

You were doing okay until you got to this point. The will is not free if there is no right to choose.

Now if we sin, God will judge accordingly...

Yes, which is proof in itself that the will is not free because God cannot punish what He has given us the right to choose.

Keep thinking free=rights.

 

[Vic C.]

This thread went under my radar.

As per Nick's announcement in this forum, made on the 31st. of October, this topic is closed:

Nick's announcement

Due to the large number of Freewill and Predestination (and related) threads latetly, the staff will no longer allow any new threads of these topics. Please use one of the existing threads instead. New threads will be merged or deleted.

This moratorium will end at the start of the new year.