Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?

[BradtheImpaler]

What is the Church's position on this? From what I've heard I believe the answer is now "yes", but, if so, hasn't that changed? I'm pretty darn sure Church of the Middle Ages, and the Church that "anathamatized" the Reformation, taught otherwise? :smt018

 

[thessalonian]

The teaching in this area is hard for non-catholics to grasp. The concept that is misunderstood is invincible ignorance. The Church has always taught "There is no salvation outside the Church".

They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

Does this mean that all non-catholics are damned to hell? Not neccessarily so, though we leave it to God's justice and mercy. Those who through no fault of their own do not know that the Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth, but would join if they did know and try to live their life to the best of their ability, following God's truth as best they can, MAY be saved. This is in line with Romans 2:4-8.

"the Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature the works of the law.
They show the work of the law <written on their hearts>."


Is this a new teaching since Vatican II? It has perhaps been cleared up some but Ludwig Ott's pre-vatican II Dogma of Catholicism, which is considered a classic on Catholic theology stated it quite explicitly. There are many other pre-vatican II examples and man statements by Bishops and priests throughout the ages. Augustine for instance says "God is not limited by his sacraments"

This statement by Pius IX shows that the Church long before Vatican II did not rigidly say that all who are not Catholic go to hell.


Thus Pius IX, in "Quanto conficiamur moerore" of August 10, 1863, taught:

"God . . . in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows anyone
to be punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt of
voluntary fault. But it is also a Catholic dogma, that no one outside the
Catholic Church can be saved, and that those who are contumacious against
the authority of the same Church (and) definitions and who are obstinately
(pertinaciter) separated from the unity of this Church and from the Roman
Pontiff, successor of Peter, to whom the custody of the vineyard was
entrusted by the Savior, cannot obtain eternal salvation."[28]


Pius XII condemned the teachings of Fr. Feeney who taught that all non-catholics go to hell. Here is what he said:

"It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a member
of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere to it in
wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be explicit . . .
but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God accepts even an
implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good
disposition of soul in which a man wills to conform his will to the will
of God."

More here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Those who through no fault of their own do not know that the Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth, but would join if they did know and try to live their life to the best of their ability, following God's truth as best they can, MAY be saved

Forgive me for quoting this line only but I believe it represents the heart of the matter? Could this apply to some church-going Protestants? That is, is it saying that there may be some Protestants who do not understand the Catholic Church represents the "fulness of the truth", "through no fault of their own"? If they are aware of the Catholic Church, and basically aware of the difference in teachings, (which I can't imagine any Protestant isn't?) how can their remaining Protestant be "no fault of their own"?

Or would it only apply to people who have never heard of the Church? Like Aborigines or whoever may have never heard of Christ at all either?

 

[thessalonian]

The Catechism applies it to protestants.

The Lord is the judge of your second part. It may be that they have had a bias or prejudice placed in them by parents or pastors that makes them unable to see the truths of the Catholic faith. There are many protestants who know little if anything about what Catholicism teaches. ChristineES admits this on this very board. There are also Protestants who have been told a distorted view of what Catholicism teaches by others. Thus they do not know and understand properly the teachings of the Church. They are right to reject what they think that Catholicism teaches in these cases.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

dupe

 

[thessalonian]

dupe

 

[thessalonian]

Can't do an edit.


The Catechism applies it to protestants.

There may be many reasons why a Protestant may not be culpable. Many do not in fact know about Catholicism. ChristineES admits this. Also many know it from biased views that they have read that twist and distort Catholicism to something it is not. What these Protestants think Catholicism is they should reject. Parents and pastors also bias children against Catholicism. Catholics who do not live their faith or cause scandal are culpable for non-catholics not coming to the faith. In all of this God is the judge and we leave it to him.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

The Catechism applies it to protestants.

 

[thessalonian]

Can't do an edit.


The Catechism applies it to protestants.

There may be many reasons why a Protestant may not be culpable. Many do not in fact know about Catholicism. ChristineES admits this. Also many know it from biased views that they have read that twist and distort Catholicism to something it is not. What these Protestants think Catholicism is they should reject. Parents and pastors also bias children against Catholicism. Catholics who do not live their faith or cause scandal are culpable for non-catholics not coming to the faith. In all of this God is the judge and we leave it to him.

Blessings

 

[stray bullet]

What is the Church's position on this? From what I've heard I believe the answer is now "yes", but, if so, hasn't that changed? I'm pretty darn sure Church of the Middle Ages, and the Church that "anathamatized" the Reformation, taught otherwise? :smt018

There is a huge difference between the protestants living today and the protestants of the Reformation. Protestants of the Reformation were living in a Catholic world and we aware of what the Church taught and rejected it anyways. Most protestants today grew up in protestant countries, with protestant parents and have little exposure to what the Church teaches.

The Church has never made a definitive statement about who is and isn't saved, because it can't. That judgment is left up to God.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Can't do an edit.


The Catechism applies it to protestants.

There may be many reasons why a Protestant may not be culpable. Many do not in fact know about Catholicism. ChristineES admits this. Also many know it from biased views that they have read that twist and distort Catholicism to something it is not. What these Protestants think Catholicism is they should reject. Parents and pastors also bias children against Catholicism. Catholics who do not live their faith or cause scandal are culpable for non-catholics not coming to the faith. In all of this God is the judge and we leave it to him.

You believe there is only one true Church, right? How can someone be saved if they are not a member of that Church? In the NT, when someone believed the gospel, they became part of the church, which is the "body of Christ" Are you preposing that there is a more universal church (the sum total of all who will be saved, which only God knows who) that might include some non-catholics? Then how is the RCC the only true church? If there are members of the body of Christ who exist outside the RCC, then the RCC can't be the WHOLE Church can it?

Do you think maybe the Church is just trying to be "politically correct" and not alienate the whole Protestant population? Even when I went to the RCC I remember it was clearly impressed upon us that there was no salvation outside the RCC. Is this a more liberal stance being taken by the RCC, to adapt to the times?

(see how well I'm behaving? :angel: )

 

[stray bullet]

When the New Testament was written, all people who accepted Christ became part of the Catholic Church. They also became part of the Body of Christ.

Due to schism, people are now able to accept Christ and become part of the Body of Christ, although they are not formally part of the Catholic Church, they are in communion with her in an imperfect way. Anyone who believes in Christ is part of the Catholic Church, imperfectly.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

When the New Testament was written, all people who accepted Christ became part of the Catholic Church. They also became part of the Body of Christ.

Due to schism, people are now able to accept Christ and become part of the Body of Christ, although they are not formally part of the Catholic Church, they are in communion with her in an imperfect way. Anyone who believes in Christ is part of the Catholic Church, imperfectly.

It seems what you're doing here is actually justifying the Reformation and division, because now, because of that, people are able to be saved outside of the RCC? Did God decide to enlarge the scope of what He considers the Church so that more could be saved? It seems to me (scripturally) there's only one true church, which is the body of Christ, and you're either in it or you're not. Are you preposing there's a 3rd category? i.e. - the "Imperfect" Church...the Church of the "Saved Through Ignorance", as long as they remain ignorant that there's a really true Church that they should join?

(Please don't take anything that sounds sarcastic personally, it's just the way I write and I am not trying to be derisive. There's something here that I don't think makes sense and I'm trying to point that out - that's all )

 

[Henry]

The Roman Catholic Church is not the church founded by Jesus, it is a man made institution.

The church that Jesus built is made of the flesh and blood of humans, and is not an institution at all. Jesus church does not have popes and pastors and what ever, just brothers who know the Lord.

 

[ttg]

Henry, I would have to say that the Catholic Church is the only church not founded by man. Catholics trace their historic roots to Jesus when he asked Peter to head his Church on earth. All other churches, every single one was started a man or a group of people with an agenda different from what Jesus wanted. He warned against divisions, but look just look around.

http://home.adelphia.net/%7Eannunciatio ... istory.pdf


But just like the OP asked, there is salvation outside of the Church, for those who have been misled, misinformed or denied the truth. Unfortunatly, there are those who see the truth and reject it. I would suggest they read the words of Ignatius of Antioch, written in 110 A.D.

"Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism, he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine, he has no part in the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1).

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Hey Brad. Thought you may find this passage useful. Its written by the current pope, Pope Benedict XVI

?The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ?heresy? is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy?s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine?s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.?

--The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pgs. 87-88


There is a lot of value in this and all clumped really tightly together. So Trent anathemized things, however, the great lapse of time and the identity that Protestant christianity has developed changed the rules a little.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

silly duplicates...

 

[stray bullet]

The Roman Catholic Church is not the church founded by Jesus, it is a man made institution.

The church that Jesus built is made of the flesh and blood of humans, and is not an institution at all. Jesus church does not have popes and pastors and what ever, just brothers who know the Lord.

Man made by whom?

Jesus' Church, as you read in the New Testament- has apostles, bishops, presbyters and deacons.

 

[stray bullet]

It seems what you're doing here is actually justifying the Reformation and division, because now, because of that, people are able to be saved outside of the RCC?

People are saved despite being impartially part of the Catholic Church.

Did God decide to enlarge the scope of what He considers the Church so that more could be saved? It seems to me (scripturally) there's only one true church, which is the body of Christ, and you're either in it or you're not. Are you preposing there's a 3rd category? i.e. - the "Imperfect" Church...the Church of the "Saved Through Ignorance", as long as they remain ignorant that there's a really true Church that they should join?

All who are baptized are baptized into the Body of Christ and into the Catholic Church. We distance ourselves from these by sin and schism.

 

[thessalonian]

The Roman Catholic Church is not the church founded by Jesus, it is a man made institution.

The church that Jesus built is made of the flesh and blood of humans, and is not an institution at all. Jesus church does not have popes and pastors and what ever, just brothers who know the Lord.

Henry,

This is a forum for questions about Catholicism, not about debate. Kindly refrain from your usual anti-catholic postings in this forum. There are other places for it. Further posts such as this will be deleted. If you cannot abide by the spirit of this part of the forum, then don't post in it.