Can We Interchange The Word God In The Bible With Spirit

[zotah]

I have spoken to a Baptist Paster about this question and I was surprised to hear what he had to say and it came from this scripture.

John 20:17 (KJV)

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I believe in the Trinity of God. That God is Jesus, God is Holy Spirit and God is the Father.

These are all the names and duties of all the same (one) God. For there are not 3 Gods but only One God all playing a role in time and space and outside of time and space all having multiple purposes and multiple titles.

So my question is what is wrong with interchanging the word God with the word Holy Spirit or Spirit of God.

If God and Spirit are exactly the samething. Then what's wrong with calling God..... Spirit or calling Jesus.... God or calling.... The Father Spirit or calling God any of the 3 role names of Father.... Son.... Holy Spirit.

So for example If I were to say

John 21:17

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

and then interchange the word God here to the word Spirit or Spirit of God. Then the understanding of this verse would read.

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my Spirit, and your God.

Simple interchange the word. From God, to Spirit.

The reason I'm confused about this is that I'm told in Trinity belief that God is a Spirit and Jesus is God and the Father is Jesus and so on.

But when I apply that thinking to real truth. I've been told that it's wrong to change the word of God and to not change scripture at the interchanging of these words.

So, If I'm not able to interchange these 2 words. Then why am I told that God is a Spirit but yet still the same God.

So to simplify my question.

Can I interchange the Word God with the word Spirit or Spirit of God. When I read John 20:17 and if I can't then explain to me why not? and how then can we teach everywhere else that In fact God is a Spirit in

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I want to make my position very clear. I'm not saying I want to go out there and rewrite the Bible or anything. In Fact it I were looking for the best word in this verse John 21:17, I would agree that the word God would be the best choice word to place here in this verse John 21:17.

However, I would read God as Spirit in my own understanding of the interpretation of this verse to help me understand it better, only in thought of interpretation only and not in changing any typed word in the Bible.

Please comment about this question only and not on the understanding of Trinity.

I understand Trinity so please don't try to define it for me. I'd appreciate that. However please comment on this thought of interchanging God with Spirit in this way.

Thanks,
Zotah

 

[Tina]

^

As good stewards of God's Word, we accept and apply the Bible as it is and do not alter or interchange words according to our whims and fancies.


:naughty

 

[Free]

zotah,

No offense but the way you word things it seems that your understanding is much more in line with modalism than trinitarianism.

I believe in the Trinity of God. That God is Jesus, God is Holy Spirit and God is the Father....For there are not 3 Gods but only One God all playing a role in time and space and outside of time and space all having multiple purposes and multiple titles.

This is an example of modalism. Jesus is God but God isn't Jesus; the Holy Spirit is God but God isn't the Holy Spirit; the Father is God but God isn't the Father. To say that God is Jesus, would be to equate all of God with Jesus, and similarly for the Father and the Holy Spirit, but none of those are the case.

And that is why we cannot just substitute one Person for the other. We could only do so if modalism were true. Modalism is the belief that God plays the role of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The reason I'm confused about this is that I'm told in Trinity belief that God is a Spirit and Jesus is God and the Father is Jesus and so on.

The doctrine of the Trinity does not state that the Father is Jesus; it is actually very careful to distinguish the Father from the Son. The doctrine of the Trinity is based on the three following foundations:

1. Monotheism - there is only one God.
2. There are three divine persons.
3. The three persons are co-equal and co-eternal

 

[zotah]

Thank you for your replies,

I didn't know that trinity believes that God the Father can not be called Jesus. I always thought Jesus is God, God is Jesus. The Father is God and God is the Father and that the Holy Spirit is Jesus and Jesus is the Holy Spirit and The Father is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Father.

All are the same (ONE God) only playing different Roles inside and outside of 3 diminsional space and time.

Is this what you call Monotheism?

If this is Monotheism then what is the differnce in what I'm believeing when it comes to the deffinition of Trinity.

Also please explain to me these verses showing us clearly that Jesus is called the Father.

Malachi 1:6
A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father; where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the Lord of Hosts unto you,

The Father himself clarifies in this verse that it is better for himself to be called the Son (Jesus) then for himself to come down to earth as the Father. Which of course is exactly what the Father did when he came down. He called himself the Son (While in human form) and he called himself Spirit while in the form as The Father.

Let me show you another verse to make my point.

Jesus again is called the Father.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be unop his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And here is another Verse that Shows us clearly that Jesus is The Holy Spirit.

Matt 18:20

Jesus says: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The key word for me is when Jesus says (I) because we know clearly that after Jesus left he sent us the Holy Spirit that he was really sending himself. and This verse tells us that Jesus in the form of the Holy Spirit will allways himself be in the midst of us all around the world "at the same time " as the Spirit of God.

Please feel free to correct me on this line of reasoning, I hope I clearly made my point of why I believe that God and Spirit are interchangeable. Only in the since of thought change not actually changing the word of God. So I can understand the biblical verses better.

Please reply back, :amen

Thanks,
Gary

 

[Free]

All are the same (ONE God) only playing different Roles inside and outside of 3 diminsional space and time.

That is modalism.

Is this what you call Monotheism?

Monotheism means there is only one God, not two or more (polytheism):

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Isa 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no other,besides me there is no God;I equip you, though you do not know me, (see also Isa 45:14,18,21,22)

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old;for I am God, and there is no other;I am God, and there is none like me,

Malachi 1:6
A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father; where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the Lord of Hosts unto you,

The Father himself clarifies in this verse that it is better for himself to be called the Son (Jesus) then for himself to come down to earth as the Father.

That is not what is being said here. It is a rhetorical question with God asking where is the honour that is due him, with Israel being the children.

Jesus again is called the Father.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This does not equate Jesus with the Father. This is a statement about the attributes of Christ. If we were to take this literally that Jesus is the "everlasting Father," then he could never be anyone else since he would always be the Father. That doesn't support you position, it actually contradicts it.

And here is another Verse that Shows us clearly that Jesus is The Holy Spirit.

Matt 18:20

Jesus says: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus' presence is said to be with us through the Holy Spirit but that does not mean that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

The key word for me is when Jesus says (I) because we know clearly that after Jesus left he sent us the Holy Spirit that he was really sending himself.

On the contrary, Jesus clearly differentiates himself not only from the Father, but from the Holy Spirit as well:

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

 

[zotah]

Thanks for your comment,

I'm having a hard time understanding your belief of trinity.

You show me these great verses that God is (One God) and at the same time make me think (by what you write me that ) he's not.

I'm not understanding your position at all.

Do you believe that Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit are 3 persons of all the same God?

I believe they are.

Let me know.

Thanks, :amen
Zotah

 

[Free]

I'm having a hard time understanding your belief of trinity.

It is difficult to understand but that is what Scripture reveals and what the orthodox Christian understanding is of the nature of God.

You show me these great verses that God is (One God) and at the same time make me think (by what you write me that ) he's not.

The first thing to understand is that the Trinity is monotheistic--there is only one God. The verses I gave you show that and that is consistent with the Judeo-Christian view of God. That is one of the foundational beliefs of Christianity.

Then there are numerous verses which show that Jesus is God, in nature--not God is Jesus. There are also some verses which show the deity of the Holy Spirit.

However, there are also numerous verses which clearly show that that Jesus is distinct from the Father and distinct from the Holy Spirit, and that the Father and Holy Spirit are also distinct from each other. The Bible gives us all these verses and it is only the doctrine of the Trinity that most fully takes into account all that is said.

As I posted earlier, these are the three basic foundations for understanding the Trinity:

1. Monotheism - there is only one God.
2. There are three distinct, divine persons.
3. The three persons are co-equal and co-eternal

Do you believe that Jesus, Father, and Holy Spirit are 3 persons of all the same God?

I believe that they are all of the same substance, the same nature, which is why they are all God. But yet the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all distinct "persons" within the one being that is God. I do not believe that they are roles that God plays since that is inconsistent with Scripture.

 

[zotah]

Could you give me some examples in the Bible of why you don't believe the Scripture teaches that roles were not used between Jesus, Father and the Holy Spirit.

Which clearly to me have all different responsibilities. We know from scripture that the Holy Spirit was given and had a much more influence on mankind after Jesus Left then Jesus had since he was limited by his body in where he could go in that small space of the world at that time.

The Holy Spirit is everywhere all over the planet all at the sametime.

and the Father was there for us and Jesus by when he said "This is my Son whom I am well pleased"

What do you think?

Zotah

 

[Free]

zotah,

We need to make sure we are talking about the same thing in regards to roles. Modalism teaches that God is only one person but plays three roles--the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When you use the term "roles" that is generally what I have in mind.

In the Ontological Trinity there are no roles; the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct, coexisting persons. In regards to the Economic Trinity we can talk about different roles since it is how they relate to the world and not to each other.

See the following for a discussion of the ontological Trinity and the Economic Trinity: http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/ontological-and-economic-trinity

 

[Cornelius]

Thank you for your replies,

I didn't know that trinity believes that God the Father can not be called Jesus. I always thought Jesus is God, God is Jesus. The Father is God and God is the Father and that the Holy Spirit is Jesus and Jesus is the Holy Spirit and The Father is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Father.

I do not believe in the classic trinity view , because I cannot see it in the Bible. But I believe what the Bible says about God the Father being invisible and that Jesus is the image of the unseen. Here we read that Jesus was the first of creation. Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; Jesus and the Father are one, (as in the same) but not one as in "1" We know this, because Jesus prayed that we also must be one like They are one :Joh 17:11 ...... that they may be one, even as we are. (Jesus clearly uses "we" here, because They are not one as in 1 )

The Bible also tells us that the Holy Spirit is in fact the Spirit of the Father (therefor "Holy" )Joh 15:26 ..... even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me: Notice the Spirit proceeds from the Father, it does not exist by Itself as a "entity" or person.

 

[zotah]

Cornelius,

I wrote this a few months ago and put it on my website refering to the same verses and the same question you brought up:

Explaining The Problem With (I And The Father Are One)

How can Jesus be one with the Father and be one with the disciples at the same time when cross referencing to the word "One"?

John 10:30

I and my Father are one.

John 17:11 (KJV)

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Comment:

The problem is that when you look at the word "One" and you compare both scriptures John 10:30 and John 17:11 it would seem a contradiction. On the one hand If the word "One" in John 10:30 means The Father and Jesus are the same one as trinity than the word "One" in John 17:11 referring to the apostle would mean the samething as the apostles being "One" as the same as God Almighty.

So to answer this contradiction we need to look at several verses in the same book of John so we get an idea what John was explaining in his book of John.

John 4:23-24 (KJV)

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spiirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Comment:

So we know the answer to this questions is a Spiritual One, and I don't believe there are any contradictions in the Bible so now lets read:

John 6:56-58 (KJV)
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Comment:

Now in trying to explain this problem of what "One" means lets read what Jesus meant with the eating of his flesh really meant.

John 6:63 (Jesus is Speaking)

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Comment:
So of course Jesus was clearly speaking in a Spiritual since of Flesh and Blood to be eaten.

So this shows that when John 10:30 say "I and the Father are one" It's showing that Jesus and the father are the same one being, and when John 17:11 says that "in order that they (the apostles) may be one as we are one" he's saying that when we eat his body and drink his blood we become "one" with Jesus in the same way that Jesus is "one" with the father. But clearly Jesus was almighty God and we are not because we were created and he was not.

Now let me show you how that's possible from more examples of the scripture in that same book of John.

John 3:8 (KJV)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 1:4-5 (KJV)

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Comment:

So if we Spiritually eat Jesus and Spiritually drink his blood than we become "one" with Jesus like the Wind and Light as these verses show.

If you become light as Jesus is light or you become wind as Jesus is the wind and you can't tell between the wind or light. How can you not be that same light and the same wind for there is no way to differetciate the differences.

But clearly the "oneness" of Jesus with the Father is of "Same God" and the "oneness" of us with Jesus is "Same in becoming a part of. Not "one" in purpose but "one" in Spiritually being the same.

The only clear difference with Jesus and Us is Jesus was never a created being because he is almighty God in the flesh and we are created beings by Almighty God.

I hope this helps shed some light on this subject because it stump me at first too. Until I understood it from a spiritial aspect.

Zotah

 

[Cornelius]

The only clear difference with Jesus and Us is Jesus was never a created being because he is almighty God in the flesh and we are created beings by Almighty God.

There is a problem with you statement, because the Bible indeed says that Jesus was the firstborn of creation.Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Also: Jesus came forth from the Father as the Word. The Father is not the Word, but Jesus is. He is the Word of the Father. Look at this:


eternity past without beginning.............beginning(creation starts and so does time)...history past and future happens now............End (now time stops) and Eternity Future begins with no end.

Jesus tells us when He came forth from the Father and when He will return to into the Father:Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

In the End this happens :1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

So Jesus is the manifestation of the Word, which is God (John 1) and that Word was also WITH God.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You see, we cannot ever separate God from His Word. They are one Whatever the Word says, is God.The Word is WITH God , but the Word is also God. The Father is unseen, but when He spoke the Word, Jesus came into being and became the firstborn of creation. Now all of a sudden there was a visible image of God..........Jesus the Son .

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Here is the word "image" in the Greek meaning:

eikÃ…Ân
i-kone'
From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.

They are one, because they are the same "thing" (thing is really not the right word, but I cannot think of a better one)

For humans its so difficult to understand that everything that has the same spirit is the same in the spiritual realm. That is why we can be like Jesus in this life. When we agree with His Word and walk in it, we are the same as He: 1Jn 4:17 .......because as he is, even so are we in this world.

So we too can be ONE as They are ONE.

 

[Free]

Jesus is not a created being, if that's what you're getting at Cornelius. But he isn't the Father either,of course.

 

[Cornelius]

Jesus is not a created being, if that's what you're getting at Cornelius. But he isn't the Father either,of course.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

 

[Cornelius]

Joh 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all the things into his hands, and that he came forth from God, and goeth unto God,

To come come forth, means that at the time, just before you 'came forth" you were not there.You first have to "come forth" before you are.

Eternity has no beginning and has no end. Yet Jesus says He is the "beginning" and the "end" He came forth and then He was, He came forth from the Father, Who spoke Him into being. God spoke the Word and the Word was God and was with God. They cannot be separated, they are one, Jesus is the image of the unseen. When you see Him , you see the Father. Not in body, but in spirit. Its not a human thing, its a God thing.But Jesus came to give us that oneness with Them as well. We are to be conformed to the Word too. As we repent of the ways of the flesh, we submit to the Word (God) and we start to manifest Him.

Its complicated, I will give you that but we are able to understand it, through His grace. Its beautiful once we see it. Full of light and harmony. Full of the most amazing grace and utter unselfish love. We cannot grasp it, because we cannot comprehend how any Being could have been so unselfish towards us, to want to make a way for us to be like Him. We would never do that, so we think He would never do that to.

There is a beauty in God that takes breath away. A purity that is unknown to us.

 

[Free]

Jesus is not a created being, if that's what you're getting at Cornelius. But he isn't the Father either,of course.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

I can't help but notice you hardly ever give a straight answer. In context:

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and all things have subsisted in Him.

Clearly Jesus is not created; there was never a time when Jesus was not.

Yet Jesus says He is the "beginning" and the "end"

Yes, I agree:

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.
...
Rev 22:16 I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star.

More interestingly is what he says here:

Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, the One who is, and who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.

Here he calls himself "the Almighty" and the oldest manuscripts have "the Lord God" rather than "the Lord".

You need to rethink what being the "beginning" and the "end" really means. One of the obvious implications--if it meant he had a beginning--would be that he will have an end.

God spoke the Word and the Word was God and was with God.

Again, in context:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Again, Jesus could not have been created, unless this passage and the one in Col 1 are false.

 

[zotah]

Cornelius,

Bottom line is that your trying to prove that Jesus was created.

That's not at all what I'm debating on this forum. This is a Christian Forum. You might do better going to a Jehovah Witness Forum, where they believe more like what you believe.

If you believe that Jesus is God then please respond, otherwise please don't, I have a hard enought time debating on the differences of the trinity muchless trying to go into all the back and forth scriptures of trying to prove the Trinity with a non Trinitarian.

Thanks,
Zotah

 

[Cornelius]

Bottom line is that your trying to prove that Jesus was created.

So you are saying that I must ignore this verse so that I can agree with you rather? Would that make you happy?
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

The Bible tells us that Jesus proceeded from the Father.Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me. Joh 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all the things into his hands, and that he came forth from God, and goeth unto God,

Just tell me where He was before He "came forth " (and don't tell me He came forth in Mary, because the Bible says He came forth from God first. )

That's not at all what I'm debating on this forum. This is a Christian Forum. You might do better going to a Jehovah Witness Forum, where they believe more like what you believe.

I am not even going to answer you on this one

If you believe that Jesus is God then please respond, otherwise please don't, I have a hard enought time debating on the differences of the trinity muchless trying to go into all the back and forth scriptures of trying to prove the Trinity with a non Trinitarian.

Of cause Jesus is God. Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Let me then ask you. How is Jesus the Word? How is that Word God?

blessings
C

 

[zotah]

Cornelius,

Ok, I jumped the gun. Everything you've been writing has pointed to none trinitarian belief.

Why are you bringing up verses like this one.

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

I witness to Jehovah Witnesses all the time and this is the number one verse they love to quote to prove that Jesus was created.

I was hoping to get away from that type of thinking from a Christian Like-minded forum like this one.

So let me ask you strait forward, Do you believe that Jesus was created? because it shows him as (the firstborn of all creation)

This is what is making me believe that you don't believe Jesus is God. Because God never had a beginning.

So if Jesus is God then Jesus never had a beginning either. So the word firstborn is clearly meaning preeminence.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Do you know what preeminence mean? I do!
If you do, then you know Jesus was never created and never had a beginning. Just like Almighty God.

Please qualify exactily what you believe, it would sure help me a lot.

Yes, You do believe that Jesus is God and God is Jesus (That's Great News)

Now help me out by answering these questions for me.

Because the bible says Jesus was firstborn does that make you believe he was created or that he had a beginning? and if not then explain to me what firstborn means?

Do you believe God is a Trinity in a different way then main stream Christianity. And if so How?

Can you explain to me exactly in your own words what you think God is in form and essence. Defining Jesus as part of that essence.

The reason I asked you to put it in your own words is because when you give me verses to read from the Bible the verses can be looked at in several ways depending on your own personal interpretation of the way you believe God is.

For example. You can read the verse (John 10:30 -- I and my Father are one) A trinitarian can say: You see Jesus is God because Jesus is the Father.

A non-trinatarian will say Nope that verse only implies that Jesus is in union with the Father but not the Father at all.

So if you could clarify for me exactly in your own words what you believe about God then when you do show me the Bible verses I can understand it from your own way of interpretation.

To be fair I'd really would like to know where your coming from, and of course ask me anything you want as well and I'll try my best to answer them using the Word of God.

Zotah

 

[zotah]

Cornelius,

I want to try to answer all of these questions you asked me.

You asked Me:

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Are you trying to ask me what this verse means? If you are I'll break down this verse so I can answer it for you.

Who is the image of the invisible God?

Ans: This is Jesus - He's God from the part we can see.

The (invisible God) is the Father that we can not see: John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;....

(The image) is Jesus the part of God we can see. John 14:9 ....he that hath seen me (Jesus) hath seen the Father:

Second part of this verse is (the firstborn of all creation;)

First off we know from Colossians 1:18 says And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So we have to break Firstborn into 3 parts from this verse Col 1:18

What does Beginning mean?

What Does Firstborn mean?

What Does Preeminence mean?

If you understand the common tread of all 3 words then you'll know what firstborn means.

So what does Beginning mean? It means Origin. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word ws with God, and the Word was God.

This is also confirmed by the fact it says the Word was God. Jesus is God. He is the origin of God himself. He has always been.

What Does Firstborn mean?

Ans: Firstborn has 2 ways of looking at it. The first way is obvious. it means firstborn out of the womb.

The other means position. or Preeminence.

Let me prove it from the Bible.

Go to Gen 41:51-52

And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house. and the name of the second called he Ephraim: for God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

So clearly from this verse the firstborn by birth is Manasseh and Second by birth is Ephraim.

Now look at Jeremiah 31:9

They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

So clearly we have 2 firstborns. That would contradict the Bible if we didn't understant that firstborn means Preeminence. It's by position of placement not by firstborn at birth.

You can even confirm this more by reading.

Gen 48:19-20

And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Also this answers that question about John 14:28 where Jesus says: (I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I)

Just because The Father is greater in position doesn't make Jesus not God. Just like Ephraim the second born became greater then Manasseh by Position.

And then we know the word Preeminence, full explains the whole thing.

So now you know what firstborn really means. You know what beginning means and you know what Preeminence means.
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You also asked me:

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me. Joh 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all the things into his hands, and that he came forth from God, and goeth unto God,

Just tell me where He was before He "came forth " (and don't tell me He came forth in Mary, because the Bible says He came forth from God first.)

Ans:

By you asking me (Just tell me where he was before he "came forth") implies that your trying to prove Jesus was created or had a beginning at a certain point in time.

The answer is simple. Jesus, Proceeded forth and came from God: KJV

Of Course, How else could Jesus come if he was God and came from his Hevenly realm into our realm. Just like saying Jesus came from Heaven and is going back to Heaven is the same logic as Jesus came from God and is going back to God.

So you ask me where was Jesus before he came forth? With God of course? Where do you think Jesus was? I don't really know why your even asking.

Look let me make it simple for you to understand it in a way you can make since of it.

Do you believe in 2 Cor. 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When we die is it not clear that our Spirit will be separted from the Body?

Then later we are brought back to the Body at the return of Christ.

So from our perspective in Heaven before we're reunited back with our new glorified body. We might say that we preceeded from our body or we came forth from our body and then later we could say we retured back to our body. or we could even say we returned back to ourselves.

Now reverse the logic.

So instead of Jesus saying hecame forth from his body and going to heaven. He came from heaven in the first place.

So Jesus would say just what he said, (for I came forth and am come from God) Or say, for I came forth from myself.

Just like we would say about our own bodies (we returned back to ourselves)
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Of cause Jesus is God. Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Ans: This one a totally agree.
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Let me then ask you. How is Jesus the Word? How is that Word God?

Ans: I assume your quoting:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It just means that Jesus is the Man aspect of God. Like our body is the Man aspect of ourselves and The Spirit of God or the Father is the Spirit aspect of God Like our spirit is the spirit aspect of ourselves.

So to clarify this part of the verse even more (the Word was with God, and the Word was God) You could say (Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God) In thought only without changing the Ink on the page in God's word. You just translate the word "Word" into the word "Jesus"

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt amohng us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begottnen of the Father, full of grace amd truth.

Just like i interchange the word "God" into Spirit I interchange the word "Word" into Jesus.

I hope I satisfactorlly answers your questions.

Zotah


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