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Can We Interchange The Word God In The Bible With Spirit

You know brother, I appreciate all the time you have put into your answer. I have been on forums long enough to know when we will just lock horns on something, and I want to avoid it. :) I really cannot see the traditional trinity view in the Bible and the Bible also does not mention it.

This seems like your pet subject , and no good fruit will come from us debating this. It never does. Its not something that should cause division between brothers, so lets leave it as it.

blessings
Cornelius
 
Cornelius,

Ok, that will be it, I still never got a stait answer from you and I'm still very courious exactly what you do believe.

I know you believe that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. I got that much figured out from your reply.

However, where I'm mystified is when you brought up the word "firstborn"

Are you believing that Jesus is God and that Jesus was "firstborn" and therefore had a beginning or was created.

If nothing else, I'd really like to hear your belief. Because I've never heard of such a belief.

I'd really like to hear your belief in your own personal words.

Thanks,
Zotah
 
zotah said:
Cornelius,

Ok, that will be it, I still never got a stait answer from you and I'm still very courious exactly what you do believe.

I know you believe that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. I got that much figured out from your reply.

However, where I'm mystified is when you brought up the word "firstborn"

Are you believing that Jesus is God and that Jesus was "firstborn" and therefore had a beginning or was created.

If nothing else, I'd really like to hear your belief. Because I've never heard of such a belief.

I'd really like to hear your belief in your own personal words.

Thanks,
Zotah
Click to expand...


OK :) Its really simple, I will give it without Scripture, but what I believe is based ON Scripture.

God has no beginning.He lived in the dateless past. Inside of Him was the Word (TRUTH) (with God), but unspoken.Then He "slowed things down"and time began: He spoke and The Word came into being. The Word is the image of the unseen God. Inside the Word creation exists . Inside the Word, we live and move and have our being. The Word is God too, because they cannot separate, they are the same.If you have seen the Word , you have seen the Father. The reverse would also be true . God became a "Father" when He "birthed the Word" by speaking It.

So there has never been a time when the Word (Jesus)was not, but there was a time before the Word came forth from the Father.For anything to "come forth" it must first be in a position to "come forth" That position is the dateless past (eternity past)

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, And give thanks unto thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Then I believe the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. He has a spirit and its Holy.Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

If we see this, then all of a sudden everything becomes clear and fits together. Its with a relief that we then can let go of the old Catholic doctrines that is still confusing the church.
 
Ok Cornelius,

Zotah says: I appreciate your answering me back, But I feel like I still don't get it so I'll try to answer it back to you and you can correct me if you want to clarify what you actually believe. So maybe I can get some light on what your really trying to say. Once I get your belief understood. I'll quit.

Zotah says: I'll use your own quotes so I don't miss read anything.

You said: (God has no beginning.He lived in the dateless past)

Zotah says: So Far I agree completely.

You said: Inside of Him was the Word (TRUTH) (with God), but unspoken.

Zotah says: So far I'm understanding but not sure exactly what your meaning by "Inside of Him was the Word"

You said: He spoke and The Word came into being.

Zotah says: He (The Father) spoke and "The Word" (Jesus Christ) became created. (Is this what your meaning "Created"?)

You Said: The Word is God too, because they cannot separate, they are the same.

Zotah says: I agree with this.

You said: The reverse would also be true . God became a "Father" when He "birthed the Word" by speaking It.

Zotah says: So your saying that God became a Father when he birthed and "created" the "Word" AKA Jesus Christ

You said: So there has never been a time when the Word (Jesus)was not

Zotah says: I agree

You said: but there was a time before the Word came forth from the Father.

Zotah says: I've racked my brain on this one. I don't get it. Please clarify this one for me. This sounds complete contradictory to me. I thinks what your saying is that "The Word" Jesus has always been. and at the sametime your saying that the Word was not around before it came from the Father. I know I've got to be wrong about what your trying to say. Please correct me on what you believe on these exact 2 statements.

You said: For anything to "come forth" it must first be in a position to "come forth" That position is the dateless past (eternity past)

Zotah says: Very Deep Thinking on this one. Just trying to clarify this is hard: But I'll try. So what I think your trying to say is that God "The Father" brought forth Jesus (created him) from eternity past known as the "Word"

Your said: You brought up this verse: (For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.)

Zotah says: I think your bringing up this verse to me to point out that the Father has Magnified thy "Word" Jesus Christ, above all thy name.
I'm not sure how this proves Jesus was created though.

You said: I believe the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.

Zotah says: I totally Agree

You said: He has a spirit and its Holy.Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.

Zotah says: I agree, The Spirit is just another aspect of the Father.

You said: If we see this, then all of a sudden everything becomes clear and fits together. Its with a relief that we then can let go of the old Catholic doctrines that is still confusing the church.

Zotah says: I understand this statement perfectly.

So let me try get the overall view of what your really trying to say.

First you point out that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. However because Jesus was firstborn and was brought forth. Even though he was a part of God through out all of time past. Jesus was still created at some point in time. And at that time Jesus became the "Word"

And before that point. Jesus was only a part of God in the since that he was in thought or was an aspect of himself.

So bottom like, Correct me if I'm wrong, You believe that God "the Father" created "the Word" Jesus Christ. and then Jesus Christ which became the "Word" Created everything else.

I think that's what I'm getting from all this. If not please forgive me. I'm trying to understand this exactly how your saying it.

Also, by understanding you I can understand more on how your looking at the scriptures your posting as well.

Please reply and correct me,

Thanks,
Zotah
 
Maybe we could change it around and you explain to me what it means to "come forth".

So to take a human example. Explain to me (yourself) what would it mean, when the doctor at a birth says to the father of the child, "Your baby came forth at 4 am " (I know they don't use those words, but they could and it would mean the same thing ) Where was the baby before it "came forth"? Was there a "moment" that you would be able to put your finger on and say" It happened exactly at 4:20 and ten seconds" ? Do you think that would be accurate linguistically to understand "come forth" as the moment something or somebody changes position ?

Verb 1. come forth - come out of; "Water issued from the hole in the wall"; "The words seemed to come out by themselves"
Click to expand...

2. come forth - happen or occur as a result of something
emerge
arise, originate, spring up, uprise, develop, grow, rise - come into existence; take on form or shape;
Click to expand...
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth (Into existence) and am come from God; (through Mary) for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.

He is not created, like God created the earth. He "came forth" from God. That is why He was WITH God and because They are the same, He IS God. But He is the Word OF God too.Manifested.

There was never a time that Truth was not. Truth has always been the reason why God is. If all things disappear only Truth cannot be destroyed and God will be there still. His Word is Truth, and at some stage the Father spoke for the first time and Truth manifested. It "came forth" and Jesus was because He IS :) He is the I AM. Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.
 
Hi Cornelius,

Like you said before, we both agree to disagree. What I'm hearing from you is (why) you believe what you believe and my problem is that I just whated to know what you believe. I'm fasinated by what you believe, maybe because it's seems from my perspective to be a double contratiction and It's like a puzzle for me trying to figure out how exactly what you beiieve God's essence is. So I'll break down your last reply and maybe see if I can try to figure it out again. (I did get a little more light on what you believe ths time but I'm still confused. (I'll keep asking and try to nail it down until I get it) And then we're done ok>)

And by the way, I'm hoping you don't give up on me explaining this because I think it's important that we both explain God to each other and Others out there for people asking us. Also, by doing this it will help you explain God to others in a more clear way as well. When you try to explain God to other people on this chat room too.

If someone ask for a definition of God I believe it is our responsiblity to tell others as a witness to the whole world Who our God is and What he is. I believe, we all have a duty as christians to explain God to anyone who ask. Don't you agree?

And I'm asking,

So here is what you said,

You said: Maybe we could change it around and you explain to me what it means to "come forth".

Zotah said: If you could do me a favor and ask me questions after I understand what your saying God is.
I'd be glad to answer every question you ask, and I will. But I was hoping that you could get me too a point of understanding what you believe, which I'm not yet sure. Once I understand what you believe exactly then if you want to debate our differences. I'd be glad too and if you want to quit that's ok too. But at this exact point in time I don't even know exactly what you believe yet so me to answer your questions would be futile because I don't know from what perspcetive your coming from, When it comes to understanding the essence of God and who God is:

You Said: So to take a human example. Explain to me (yourself) what would it mean, when the doctor at a birth says to the father of the child, "Your baby came forth at 4 am " (I know they don't use those words, but they could and it would mean the same thing )

Zotah said: Again before I answer this and go round and a round on a debate of answers and questions, please help me understand your definition of God Exactly.

You said:Where was the baby before it "came forth"?

Zotah said: This is the reason I don't understand your definition of God. By me answering this right now does not help me understand your definition of God. All this question does is confuse me more on what you really believe. Could you draft out exactly what's behind your believe in even asking me this.

Zotah said: Simply just answer this for me. When you say "came forth" Are you saying then that you believe that Jesus "came forth"? meaning that before he came forth he was Not Jesus before he came forth. And if that is what you believe then explain that in more detail in your own words so I can make since of it. Every time I guess what you believe I'm wrong. So this is why I keep asking you over and over again.

Zotah said: Remember, you said it yourself. Debating this back and forth isn't going to help either one of us. Because I think we're both pretty stong in our convictions of what we believe. However, If I ask you what you believe without debating you on what I believe I think we both can become winners in this.
Maybe after all this we find out we believe exactly the same way. But I will never know unless you can articulate your belief to me in a better way.

You said: Was there a "moment" that you would be able to put your finger on and say" It happened exactly at 4:20 and ten seconds" ?

Zotah said: Good point if I understood what your believe is on God's essence.

You said: Do you think that would be accurate linguistically to understand "come forth" as the moment something or somebody changes position ?

Zotah said: Yes

You wrote: Verb 1. come forth - come out of; "Water issued from the hole in the wall"; "The words seemed to come out by themselves"

Zotah said: Yes I understand this.

You wrote: 2. come forth - happen or occur as a result of something
emerge

Zotah said: Yes I understand this too.


You wrote: arise, originate, spring up, uprise, develop, grow, rise - come into existence; take on form or shape;

Zotah said: Sounds clear to me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for (I came forth) (Into existence) and am come from God; (through Mary) for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.

Zotah said: I think I figured out (one part) of our problem. It's the version of the Bible we're using. I can't figure out what version your using. Let me quote different versions and you can tell me what version your using.

John 8:42 (King James Version) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for (I proceeded) forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sen me.

John 8:42 (New King James Version) Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me. for (I proceeded forth) and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

John 8:42 (New International Version) Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own: but he sent me:

John 8:42 (New World Translation) Jesus said to them: If God were YOUR Father, You would love me, from God (I came forth) and am here. Neither have I come of my onw initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.

Zotah said: You have a bible almost identical to the (New World Translatin) One I've never seen before.
Now I understand where the confussion is coming from between us. We have 2 different Bibles so we have 2 differnet believes.

Zotah said: What Bible are you using?

You said: He is not created, like God created the earth. He "came forth" from God. That is why He was WITH God and because They are the same, He IS God. But He is the Word OF God too. Manifested.

Zotah said: I'm glad I finally got you to say that Jesus was not created. However, your belief is all based around the words "came forth" doesn't it strick you that all the other versions of the Bible except the (New World Translation) says "I came from God" or "I proceeded forth" Do you see: different words can change everything.

Your said: There was never a time that Truth was not. Truth has always been the reason why God is. If all things disappear only Truth cannot be destroyed and God will be there still. His Word is Truth, and at some stage the Father spoke for the first time and Truth manifested. It "came forth" and Jesus was because He IS He is the I AM. Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.

Zotah said: So I'm understanding a little more why your believing this way and I appreciate you opening up to me.

Zotah said: So please tell me what version your using of the Bible and let me know in your own words exactly what Jesus was before he came forth.

Thanks,
Zotah
 
I use the ASV which is the closest to the Numeric if I cannot get to the Numeric New Testament. As you certainly know, in Numeric New Testament, each word was tested with the mathematical pattern that runs through the Bible, making it 100% accurate.But I am sure this is old news to you.
 
Cornelius,

I'm check out the website now. Thanks

No, I've never heard of it before. I still hope you address my questions in the last tread.

Zotah
 
Cornelius said:
As you certainly know, in Numeric New Testament, each word was tested with the mathematical pattern that runs through the Bible, making it 100% accurate.But I am sure this is old news to you.
Click to expand...
See, that's the kind of stuff people get into when they reject organized religion and the like. :shame Rejection of that kind of stuff is one of the very reasons that Christianity organized itself.

[/off topic]
 
Free said:
Cornelius said:
As you certainly know, in Numeric New Testament, each word was tested with the mathematical pattern that runs through the Bible, making it 100% accurate.But I am sure this is old news to you.
Click to expand...
See, that's the kind of stuff people get into when they reject organized religion and the like. :shame Rejection of that kind of stuff is one of the very reasons that Christianity organized itself.

[/off topic]
Click to expand...
Yep, this sure makes a solid and logical case for organized religion.
 
The reason I'm confused about this is that I'm told in Trinity belief that God is a Spirit and Jesus is God and the Father is Jesus and so on.
Click to expand...
Sorry, if I didn't read absolutely every post in this regard.
You hit the best verse:

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
He that has seen Christ has seen the Father, because the Father is Spirit. Jesus is the express image of the Father in flesh. However, the Father is not the Son. The Son is the Son.
The fulness of the Godhead dwelt IN Him bodily.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Just remember GOD IS SPIRIT. JESUS HAD BOTH MANHOOD AND GODHOOD.
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It is the Father that is glorified ... through Christ, the express image of the Father.
GOD IS SPIRIT! Yes, Christ is glorified as GOD, also. They are inseparable. He is the IMAGE OF GOD.
Remember the Spirit is sent by the Father...and the Son is sent by the Father.
 
zotah said:
Cornelius,

I'm check out the website now. Thanks

No, I've never heard of it before. I still hope you address my questions in the last tread.

Zotah
Click to expand...
I will, but it will only work if you just give me the two answers I asked for. Then I can see if you will understand what I am saying or not :) I am not trying to be difficult, I truly believe we can talk if we have a bit of a foundation.

By the way , even the KJV says the same Joh 8:42 JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto them,G846 IfG1487 GodG2316 wereG2258 yourG5216 Father,G3962 ye would loveG25 G302 me:G1691 forG1063 IG1473 proceeded forthG1831 andG2532 cameG2240 fromG1537 God;G2316(G1063) neitherG3761 cameG2064 I ofG575 myself,G1683 butG235 heG1565 sentG649 me.G3165

G1831
á¼ÂξέÃÂÇομαι
exerchomai
ex-er'-khom-ahee
From G1537 and G2064; to issue (literally or figuratively): - come-(forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.

Whereas 'came from" would be to "arrive from "

G2240
ἥκÉ
hÄ“kÃ…Â
hay'-ko
A primary verb; to arrive, that is, be present (literally or figuratively): - come.

So this is definitely talking about two different things. His origin issuing forth from the Father and then arriving here through Mary.
 
Cornelius said:
Free said:
Cornelius said:
As you certainly know, in Numeric New Testament, each word was tested with the mathematical pattern that runs through the Bible, making it 100% accurate.But I am sure this is old news to you.
Click to expand...
See, that's the kind of stuff people get into when they reject organized religion and the like. :shame Rejection of that kind of stuff is one of the very reasons that Christianity organized itself.

[/off topic]
Click to expand...
Yep, this sure makes a solid and logical case for organized religion.
Click to expand...
Properly understood, yes it does. The initial reason for forming the NT canon was to combat the Marconian canon. It was the heresy that came first which brought the need for establishing orthodoxy. One of the main points of organizing a religion is to protect it from heresy. That is why the doctrine of the Trinity was formally established and why the relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were defined.

I just find stuff like all these supposed mathematical patterns not only unsubstantiated (Grant Jeffery, for example, has been debunked), but entirely unnecessary. To claim that it means it is 100% accurate, one must ask: compared to what?
 
Brother zotah, I do not know how to tell you this really, but do you know how to look with your heart? To understand the Father and Jesus as being ONE, we see in the spirit and then we understand. Jesus has always been part of the Father, because He is as much part of God as your thoughts are part of you. Your words show who you are. Jesus is the Word of the unseen God, therefor He said : If you have seen me you have seen the Father. (The Father's Words show us who He is ) He has never been without His Word, but His Word was not always manifested before it "came forth"

The "when" is revealed by Jesus in "I am the beginning" and echoed by Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now if we find the beginning, we find the time when He "came forth" . Its not difficult, once we step over what people have taught us and look for ourselves.
 
Free said:
I just find stuff like all these supposed mathematical patterns not only unsubstantiated (Grant Jeffery, for example, has been debunked), but entirely unnecessary. To claim that it means it is 100% accurate, one must ask: compared to what?
Click to expand...

Its really difficult to explain this to somebody who has no knowledge about it.
 
Cornelius said:
Free said:
I just find stuff like all these supposed mathematical patterns not only unsubstantiated (Grant Jeffery, for example, has been debunked), but entirely unnecessary. To claim that it means it is 100% accurate, one must ask: compared to what?
Click to expand...
Its really difficult to explain this to somebody who has no knowledge about it.
Click to expand...
That's fine. Since this is off-topic, the last thing I will say about it is this: if the 100% accurate claim means that compared to the originals that version is 100% accurate, then that claim can easily be shown to be false. By extension, that would show any supposed mathematical pattern to be false as well.
 
Free said:
That's fine. Since this is off-topic, the last thing I will say about it is this: if the 100% accurate claim means that compared to the originals that version is 100% accurate, then that claim can easily be shown to be false. By extension, that would show any supposed mathematical pattern to be false as well.
Click to expand...

Here is brotherly advice: Google Panin and his work. He use to be an atheist mathematician from Russia. He was also a genius at his subject. He became a Christian when he found that God wrote His Word with mathematical precision . The work was published and then a reward was offered for the person who could prove it to be wrong. Although the best minds have looked at his work, none up to this date could prove him wrong. So when you make an uninformed statement like this, its not good because you have not looked at what was offered, so your comments could be seen as purely argumentative , which is also not good.

C
 
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