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[_ Old Earth _] Can we trust our senses?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JM
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JM

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This is a quote from another forum, it's interesting, I thought we could discuss it.

Do you believe that your senses (sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch) give you reliably true information about the world around you?

Here are some things to consider:

Everything you sense is from the past, not the present. There is lag time between when your nerve endings come in contact with a hot skillet before your brain interprets that information as "i need to drop this because it's real frikken hot!" Essentially, no-one lives in the moment truly.

There is absolutely no way for you to know exactly what other's are experiencing. Perhaps all of our optic nerves deal with information a little bit differently and what I think of as orange and you think of as orange would really look more like what I think of as red, were I to see it through your eyes.

Our senses appear to corroborate the evidence that the other senses are giving. If a taco smells tasty and feels warm you can bite into it with a high degree of certainty that it won't taste like rotten baby bird mixed with crude oil. It will be tasty. When you say someone's name, your ears hear the sound and eyes tell you when they have turned their head to look at you.

Western philosophy is basically founded (with a few notable exceptions) on the presupposition that our senses are reliable. Eastern philosophy (though I know less about it) is basically founded on the presupposition that our senses are false (all is brahman, there is no spoon ;)).

Solipsism is the philosophy that proposes that indeed our senses are not verifiable and that the self is the only thing that is (I perceive myself, thus I exist, or "je penes, donc, je suis" as Descarte said). In Solipsism the idea is that everything perceived as outside the self is a construction of the self. If you hit a solipsist, they can't complain because their philosophy dictates that it was in fact their will that caused you to hit them
 
Slevin said:
I think either absolute statement is wrong.

Do you believe there is no such thing as absolutes?
 
I tend to think that what we perceive via our senses is an accurate approximation of "reality". There is a one-to-one correspondence between a sensation that we perceive, and the related phenomenon that spawned it, in healthy people with senses functioning as per their design. This doesn't necessarily mean that everything we see, for instance, exists in "reality" in precisely that form, but rather that our sight relays information to us in a repeatable, useful, and non-trivial manner.

For example, consider color. Color, strictly, speaking, doesn't exist. On a sub-atomic level, there's no such thing as "red". All color is is our brain's way of interpreting electromagnetic radiation of a certain frequency. An apple is red because it absorbs light of certain frequencies and reflects light of other frequencies, and our brain calls this color "red". While the color red is an artificial construct generated by our brain, it's still "real" in the sense that it represents an actual physical phenomenon, it's repeatable, and the information is useful to us.

It may be that in "reality", there is no color, apples taste like bananas, and are quite rough in texture, and our perception of an apple is based on a bunch of signals in our brains being consistently and repeatedly jumbled. But inasmuch as our sense allow us to accurately classify the vast taxonomy of various things in the world, our notion of "apple" is as real as it needs to be.
 
JM said:
moniker said:
JM said:
Slevin said:
I think either absolute statement is wrong.

Do you believe there is no such thing as absolutes?

Do you believe we don't exist in a world of grays?

Are you going to give an answer or dodge?

You didn't ask me in the first place, nice dodge of my own question in the second.

I won't deny that intellectually there are absolutes, whether we have experienced them or not is another thing. Mind answering mine?
 
moniker said:
JM said:
moniker said:
JM said:
Slevin said:
I think either absolute statement is wrong.

Do you believe there is no such thing as absolutes?

Do you believe we don't exist in a world of grays?

Are you going to give an answer or dodge?

You didn't ask me in the first place, nice dodge of my own question in the second.

I won't deny that intellectually there are absolutes, whether we have experienced them or not is another thing. Mind answering mine?

Start a thread, maybe I'll get to it. :morning:
 
JM said:
Slevin said:
I think either absolute statement is wrong.

Do you believe there is no such thing as absolutes?

I believe it's hilarious that some people think that trap might work.

Yes, I believe in absolutes...but that had nothing to do with the OP.
 
moniker said:
Now that dodge wasn't nearly as well played.

Hey moni, it's my thread...no red herrings allowed. :wink:
 
Slevin said:
JM said:
Slevin said:
I think either absolute statement is wrong.

Do you believe there is no such thing as absolutes?

I believe it's hilarious that some people think that trap might work.

Yes, I believe in absolutes...but that had nothing to do with the OP.

Well, you reject the statements, so I have to ask on what grounds?
 
How does the information you process get from the senses to the brain? The information gathered from the senses is always past tense, how do you account for uniformity, since you can’t test it?
 
I believe that I have a view similar to ArtGuy's. Even though the "phenomenal" world (the world of sense experiences) may not map in a clear manner to the "reality out there", we can indeed trust our senses because they produce useful results. In other words, our senses are reliable because they allow us to "get by in the world" - we see, hear, and smell the sabre-tooth and run away to live another day. So even if we cannot map our senses to reality in a clean way, the relationship is such that we can live our lives by relying on the apparent fact that our sense experiences are a reliable guide to survival and attaining our needs and wants.
 
My 1st thought, when I saw the OP, was that we need to recognise the wisdom of the Almighty Creator above all

Can you trust your eyes to smell with?

No: God made those for you to see

Cutting to the chase, my 2nd thought was, "I bet this thread is all about the physical senses"

& so it has been

Do you know that the Bible says that the unseen things are eternal, while what we see will pass away

It says that the things we cannot see, therefore, are more important & more valuable than the temporal things we perceive with our senses

It says that God saw to it that, as men refused to acknowledge Him thru human wisdom, He chooses to save those who believe thru 'the foolishness of preaching'

I came here purposely to start a thread

But I always ask God if the message I have from Him is better delivered in a different way than I first thought

So it is here

I was gonna call my thread, "The question of the day?"

But most of UK cares not a jot @ either the local election results or the new cabinet reshuffle

& there are non-UK readers to consider, to whom those things would mean even less

The question of the day - (as I just preached, in the 3 best acoustic spots in wonderful West Kirby, Wirral, 4pm-4.15, on the way to the bus home!) - is not, 'do you know who's on the local council now?'

Nor is it, 'do you know the ins & outs of Blair's latest reshuffle?'

It's do you remember, day by day, situation by situation, who is on the throne of the universe?

It was great, in the best sunshine of the week so far, to call out - (@ Morrisons car park, by the Crescent of small shops, & in the station approach) - 'praise the Lord!!!'

& add, 'Pentecostal churches: God bless you!'

Just 5 mins to ask, can you see yourself allowing God to use you in that way?

Do you care more about the finite & unreliable opinions of mere humans?

Or about the undeniably superior strength & wisdom of God?

Are you prepared to look 'a fool for Christ'?

Do you see, 1st & foremost, your own reputation or God's glory?

IOnvite others to see behind that strange red/yellow ball in the sky

& enjoy the 'sunshine of God's love'

Enjoy the weekend!





Today's Scripture

Fear NOT! Be bold...

But now, this is what the LORD says - he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine.

When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you.

When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze. For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Isaiah 43:1-3a NIV

__________________

"Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." Then Elisha prayed and said, "O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see."

And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

2 Kings 6:16,17 NASB

__________________

Fret not thyself because of evildoers,
neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
and wither as the green herb.

Trust in the LORD, and do good;
so shalt thou dwell in the land,
and verily thou shalt be fed.

Delight thyself also in the LORD:
and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

Psalm 37:1-4 KJV

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.

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Weekly Meditation

Be Like Christ

Is there any encouragement from belonging to Christ? Any comfort from his love? Any fellowship together in the Spirit? Are your hearts tender and sympathetic? Then make me truly happy by agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, loving one another, and working together with one heart and purpose.

Don't be selfish; don't live to make a good impression on others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself. Don't think only about your own affairs, but be interested in others, too, and what they are doing.

Philippians 2:1-4 NLT


Must go

Ian
 
JM said:
Well, you reject the statements, so I have to ask on what grounds?

Why didn't you ask that before?

I don't think that our individual senses are absolutely unreliable, or we'd never be able to survive.

I also don't think that our individual senses are absolutely reliable, or we'd never have to wear glasses/hearing aides, etc.

The corroboration of everyone else's senses help provide a foundation of objectivism with which we can work on to establish what is real and what isn't, based on epistemic systems of empiricism and rationalism.[/b]
 
Slevin said:
I don't think that our individual senses are absolutely unreliable, or we'd never be able to survive.

Can we trust our senses to deliever information without bias?

Can we trust the way we process the information gathered without bias?

I'm going somewhere with this...
 
Can we trust our senses to deliever information without bias?

Can we trust the way we process the information gathered without bias?
Do you mean bias from our brains?
 
JM said:
Slevin said:
I don't think that our individual senses are absolutely unreliable, or we'd never be able to survive.

Can we trust our senses to deliever information without bias?

Can we trust the way we process the information gathered without bias?

I'm going somewhere with this...

Then why don't you get there?
 
Slevin said:
JM said:
Slevin said:
I don't think that our individual senses are absolutely unreliable, or we'd never be able to survive.

Can we trust our senses to deliever information without bias?

Can we trust the way we process the information gathered without bias?

I'm going somewhere with this...

Then why don't you get there?

If you don't think about it by yourself, you'll never understand what I'm saying...

Do you mean bias from our brains?

Yes.
 
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