[_ Old Earth _] Can we trust our senses?

[JM]

Due to sin, the nature of man is fallen, that includes the mind of man. Any information the senses gather is processed by a brain under the influance of sin hence the Bible calls the person who deny's God a fool.

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions." London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

Gen. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The heart of fallen man as a result of the fall:

Gen. 6:5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen. 8:21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Ecc. 9:3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jer. 17: 9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mark 7:21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

John 3: 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [This point is important for those who believe man desires to be saved, they don’t. Men are slaves to sin and love to sin, they harden their hearts to the Gospel offer for the reason stated above.]

Rom. 8: 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: [The fallen mind of man is hostile toward God.] for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Cor. 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [The fallen man cannot discern spiritual things, as was pointed out above.]

Eph. 4: 17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: [And what is the reason for their blindness? Vanity of their mind, the understanding was darkened.] 19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Eph. 5: 8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Titus 1:15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Before God enables fallen man to respond, we belong to the Devil:

John 8:10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

John 8: 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rom. 6: 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Eph. 2: 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

2 Tim. 2: 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Titus 3: 3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

1 John 3: 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5: 19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

All are sinners:

2 Chronicles 6: 36If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

1 Kings 8: 46If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Job 15: 14What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? 15Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. 16How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?
Psalm 130: 3If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

Psalm 143: 2And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Proverbs 20: 9Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Ecclesiastes 7: 20For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Isaiah 64:5Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

Isaiah 53: 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Romans 3: 9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

James 3: 2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. 3Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. 4Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. 5Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: 8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

1 John 1: 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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As you can see, God doesn't think so highly of fallen man, and in closing read the words of Romans:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

God bless,

jm

 

[Drew]

Hi JM:

This is an interesting topic, but can you please be more specific about the question you are interested in pursuing? I think you need to be more precise about the nature of this bias that you are talking about. What type of "brain-bias" are you talking about? We need to understand your basic question, or we will all be fumbling in the dark.

***I wrote the above before seeing your long post. I will read it, perhaps you have addressed my question.....

 

[Drew]

Due to sin, the nature of man is fallen, that includes the mind of man. Any information the senses gather is processed by a brain under the influance of sin hence the Bible calls the person who deny's God a fool.

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions." London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

I may have other comments about the rest of your post. I will go along with the first para. However, I think the second one from the London Baptist Confession of Faith is clearly incorrect.

We know that unredeemed people can and do perform acts of goodness. To suggest otherwise is to deny the mountains of evidence from the world. Non-believers do good things - they donate kidneys, they give to the poor, they help people along the side of the road, they sacrifice personal happiness for the sake of the happiness of others, etc. etc. They do bad things too. However, any remotely realistic appraisal shows that unredeemed human nature is a mixed bag -some good stuff, some bad stuff.

Now, some have argued that the motivations behind these seemingly good acts by unbelievers is ultimately evil and selfish. I find this to be a rather convenient myth. One can always imagine elaborate schemes to explain seemingly good acts as arising from an evil nature. This approach seems hopelessly unrealistic and two-edged - any act of goodness by a believer is also subject to such a critical examination.

As Forret Gump might say: "sinful is as sinful does". I might add that "if it looks, smells, and tastes like an act of goodness, it probably is an act of goodness". Of course, it is possible that all acts of goodness by unbelievers arise from evil intent. Almost anything is possible. The reader should examine the content of his / her life experiences with the unredeeemed and ask "Do you really think these people are "wholly inclined to all evil"?

I submit this view is a fanasy that lives in the minds of those who have not honestly engaged the real world of the unbeliever and seen it for what it is - a mix of good and bad.

 

[JM]

I'll quote chpt. 6:

Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )

Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

As a Reformed Christian I understand the good works of sinful [unsaved] man as not pleasing to God because they're judged according to an ultimate standard of perfection. The motive is the root, a Christian does good out of a deep love for God because of his redemptive blessings from God.

Drew, lets state our arguments with Scripture, please? It seems you're dealing with the things of man once again and not the word of God, "And without faith it is impossible to please God..." Nothing the unsaved do can be understood by this standard as "good."

JM

 

[Drew]

Drew, lets state our arguments with Scripture, please? It seems you're dealing with the things of man once again and not the word of God, "And without faith it is impossible to please God..." Nothing the unsaved do can be understood by this standard as "good."

JM

I will try to find some Scripture to support the position I am taking. Before I do, I should say that I am not prepared to undertake a discussion where both the "empirical evidence of life" and / or valid reasoning is ruled out of bounds. These things are necessary pieces of the puzzle and should not be ignored. If you insist that the discussion be settled purely on Biblical grounds, then this is not a discussion for me, since I believe a search for truth must be informed by the empirical evidence of living life, solid rational thinking as well as the content of the Scriptures.

So are you insistent that the matter be settled solely on Bibical grounds? If so, I cannot participate in good conscience (that's OK).

 

[Slevin]

I don't think that our individual senses are absolutely unreliable, or we'd never be able to survive.

Can we trust our senses to deliever information without bias?

Can we trust the way we process the information gathered without bias?

I'm going somewhere with this...

Then why don't you get there?

If you don't think about it by yourself, you'll never understand what I'm saying...

Yes, our senses do not have an emotional prejudice in delivering information, so there is no bias. That does not mean sometimes we can pick up false senses through specific brain stimulation. However, we shouldn't base reality only on our own perception.

Our conclusions from the information that we receive is biased based on how we were taught to think, on our presupposed beliefs, our rational abilities and adherence to logic and empiricism. If you mean emotional bias, then our entire being is emotional bias of some sort, despite how much we try to limit that in processing certain information we receive.

Your "Due to sin, the nature of man is fallen, that includes the mind of man. Any information the senses gather is processed by a brain under the influance of sin hence the Bible calls the person who deny's God a fool." while it may be pertinent to this board is not indicative of rational thought, evidence, or empirical justification.

You got there, but you crashed your car.

 

[JM]

while it may be pertinent to this board is not indicative of rational thought, evidence, or empirical justification.

Yes, the fool says in his heart, there is no God.

Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stole anything?
Have you ever looked upon another with lust in your heart?

The answers you give are rational they are in fact evidence and can be proven empirically.

 

[Drew]

This is getting confusing as I am not sure what we are talking about.

If one is arguing that a human mind, as a fallen entity and subject to an inclination to sin, is incapable of making sense of the world or of making valid moral judgments, then one is certainly not living in the same world as I am.

First, minds are clearly not fallen to the point where we cannot operate effectively in the world. We have constructed technology, advanced our knowledge of the world and its workings, etc.

On the "moral" side of the issue, one would have to close one's eyes to the manifest reality of the world to suggest that the minds of the unredeemed are not capable of doing good. It happen billions of times every day. There are only 2 choices I see that are open to one who wants to argue that the unredeemed mind is corrupt to the point of not being able to do any good: such a person needs to sweeps these billions of items of evidence under the carpet and pretend they are not there. Or they have to argue that what looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck is not, in fact, a duck.

The notion seems silly, except when one considers the fact that many Christians seem willing to ignore the empirical evidence and suggest that unredeemed man is capable of no good work. The Emperor has no clothes, I guess.

 

[moniker]

I think I see where you're going with this now, JM, you believe in the ideas of pre-enlightenment thought. That man is wholly fallen and unredeemable but by the grace of god, including our minds and thoughts.

Correct?

 

[Drew]

A post-script about issues of motive.....

It is true that one can do things that produce "good" outcomes from underlying motives that are evil. But, and here is the key point, the charade can only go on so long before the motive is made manifest in some actual behaviour. In other words, if my motives are evil, this will become apparent by my actions if one "follows the chain" as it were.

So I maintain that the argument that good deeds can arise from bad motives is fatally flawed - it is only true for a very narrow-window view. I cannot speak for others, but I know of unredeemed people whose seemingly good actions do not lead to an evil actions.

My point is that it is easy to try to paint a picture where good deeds are undergirded by evil intent. But this is a temporary illusion only - follow the trail and the evil will be made manifest by actions. Since, for the unredeemed we do not see these evil actions in many cases, we can conclude that their motives were not in fact evil.

Now I would caution the reader to not fall for wild and implausible explanations of how good deeds by the unredeemed really spring from selfish motives. This is, of course, possible - perhaps those non-beleivers who sheltered Jews in WWII did it all for "chicks and glory". But I would ask each of you to consider whether your personal experiences support this idea that the unredeemed have motives that are totally evil.

 

[ArtGuy]

I think the only real means of ignoring all the good that is done by the unsaved is to simply declare everything they do as evil by definition. You're not saved? Well, then, everything you do is evil, even if you think it's good, because you're evil, end of story.

Is that what you're getting at, JM? That's about the only intellectually defensible way I can interpret what you're saying. I disagree, of course, but it's at least an observation that can be made without completely ignoring all relevant evidence to the contrary.

 

[Slevin]

while it may be pertinent to this board is not indicative of rational thought, evidence, or empirical justification.

Yes, the fool says in his heart, there is no God.

Yes, you've said that already. It really has no bearing on the discussion except to goad people into anger. As a moderator, I'm sure you would appreciate that in the interest of rational discussion, name-calling (even in implication) is counterproductive.

Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stole anything?
Have you ever looked upon another with lust in your heart?

Yes, so?

The answers you give are rational they are in fact evidence and can be proven empirically.

It's evidence that I have stolen, lied, and lusted.

You can show empirically that I have lied, stolen and looked at someone with lust in my heart, but they don't show any type of causal relationship between your theology and my beliefs. You just provide a convenient explanation with a back-story to explain the reason why I do these things. That doesn't mean it's true.

Basically, what I have seen from you is:

1. Accusation that I am a fool without evidence to provide it.
2. Creating an invalid causal-relationship between your beliefs.

 

[JM]

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions." London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

Robert Shaw comments on the above: In opposition [the Arminians] to such tenets our Confession teaches, that a corrupt nature is conveyed to all the posterity of Adam; and that, by this original corruption, "we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil."

and

Though they speak of original sin as being, first, negative; i.e., the loss of righteousnessâ€â€and, secondly, positive, or corruption of nature, yet by the latter, they state, is to be understood, not the infusion of anything in itself sinful, but an actual tendency or disposition to evil, resulting from the loss of righteousness." The universal corruption of mankind is amply confirmed by the Scriptures: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth." Gen. viii. 21. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity: and in sin did my mother conceive me."â€â€Ps. li. 5. "The wicked are estranged from the womb, they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."â€â€Ps. lviii. 3. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."â€â€John iii. 6. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."â€â€Rom. viii. 7.

1. Accusation that I am a fool without evidence to provide it.

If you deny God, you are a fool in Biblical terms...a simpleton as Strong suggests.

2. Creating an invalid causal-relationship between your beliefs.

Prove how it's invalid? What is the critia you're using to make such a statement?

I disagree, of course, but it's at least an observation that can be made without completely ignoring all relevant evidence to the contrary.

You can't believe that I'm speaking of how man sees man and the works they do...but how God sees fallen man outside of a saving relationship with Christ. As I quoted, without faith it is impossible to please God...is the unbeliever still "good" or the works they do "good" in the sight of God outside of the relationship with Christ? I believe relevant evidence is on my side.

I think I see where you're going with this now, JM, you believe in the ideas of pre-enlightenment thought. That man is wholly fallen and unredeemable but by the grace of god, including our minds and thoughts.

Correct?

Yes. 8-) Sorry if I'm not as clear as I'd like to be.

So I maintain that the argument that good deeds can arise from bad motives is fatally flawed - it is only true for a very narrow-window view.

What do you think Drew, of Joseph being sold into slavery as a purposed event by God to save Israel Gen.45 - 50? Or the murder of Christ to save a people Acts 4?

I cannot speak for others, but I know of unredeemed people whose seemingly good actions do not lead to an evil actions.

How does God see the unredeemed? What is the mind of an unredeemed person like? [hint: hostile to God]

___________________________________________


This view of man as a poor humble sinner who only wants to please God is not Biblical. The picture Paul paints of unredeemed/unsaved/not regenerated/lost/dead in sin man is anything but pretty. When fallen man acts, they're not seen as “good†by God. The fallen as called children of the Devil…if a selfish motive cannot be found, then what is it that makes them so unpleasing to God? Their lack of faith. You can only please God when you act in faith, your works are seen by the Father as good thru faith.

Let’s look at a few Scriptures, feel free to post, most of what has been posted so far is personal opinion…

 

[JM]

Wow, I found this quote by pure luck [or sovereignty], and it sums up my view perfectly…without all the ramblings, etc.

John Frame wrote, "Although fallen persons are capable of externally good acts (acts that are good for society), they cannot do anything really good, i.e., pleasing to God (Rom. 8:8). God, however, looks on the heart."[color]

Speaking of a sinner...“...cannot find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a police officer.†Michael Horton :
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Back to the op...

Does the stain of sin affect man's ability to make valid observations in the spiritual life, can the unregenerate man trust his senses based upon his fallen understanding of the world?

 

[Drew]

It is actually rather obvious that fallen man cannot do anything really good, if God only counts as "good" those good deeds that are done in the context of faith. I have no objection to this, but I do not think that this is a distinction that is of much interest or importance.

Why? Because we Christians believe that all people need to be redeemed, and that even though fallen man can do "good" deeds (normal sense of word), God really wants all men to do good deeds (normal sense) in service to the higher goal of bringing about the kingdom on Earth.

So I am not sure what the point is of drawing this distinction - it will be self-evident to all Christians and the non-Christians will see this is just another reformulation of the Christian plea to the world to accept the redemption offered at the Cross. And since, by the Calvinist argument at least as I understand it, the non-believer's total depravity makes such pleas effectively useless anyway.

The problem lies in the implication that when a non-Christians risks his life to save someone from a burning building, he is not doing a "good act". Of course he is. And of course, God is pleased with it in the sense that He is glad that the person undertook the action in question. Does it make that fallen man "right" with God. No. Is it pleasing to God in the sense that it is an act done in faith? No again.

But it is still a good act in a very real and important way. It should be celebrated as such, and in no sense reviled as originating from evil motive.

And of course, we should never tire in pointing out that we all have done things that we know are wrong and need the redemption of the Cross to bring us into a relationship with a living God.

 

[JM]

It is actually rather obvious that fallen man cannot do anything really good, if God only counts as "good" those good deeds that are done in the context of faith.

Great, you seem to agree with the confession on this point, can we get back to the op...pls?

Does the stain of sin affect man's ability to make valid observations in the spiritual life, can the unregenerate man trust his senses based upon his fallen understanding of the world?

 

[ArtGuy]

Does the stain of sin affect man's ability to make valid observations in the spiritual life, can the unregenerate man trust his senses based upon his fallen understanding of the world?

In the most basic sense? Yes. I see no plausible reason why sin would taint one's ability to see the color red, or count the number of eggs in a carton. Even fallen man can trust his senses to the extent that he can make logical sense of the world around him with non-negligible accuracy. There's no empirical evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

[Slevin]

1. Accusation that I am a fool without evidence to provide it.

If you deny God, you are a fool in Biblical terms...a simpleton as Strong suggests.

Naked assertion.

[quote:5b16f]2. Creating an invalid causal-relationship between your beliefs.

Prove how it's invalid? What is the critia you're using to make such a statement?[/quote:5b16f]

You haven't established that your theology and my actions form a coherent causal relationship, that is what makes it invalid. Your claim is a post hoc fallacy that my actions are a result of a fallen state.

 

[JM]

In the most basic sense? Yes.

I agree. Can we find the finger print of God in nature? "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water" (II Peter 3:5)

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=art ... ew&ID=2477