Cant obey God by nature !

[beloved57]

Eph 2:2-3

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Even the elect of God cant render any obedience of God, because they partake of the same disobedient nature and spirit as does the children of disobedience.

The reason why they're the sons or children of disobedience is because they cant obey God.

This thought is no different than what Paul teaches in Rom 3:9-12 man by nature, under sin, doesnt understand nor seek after the True God:


What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


This speaks to inability. Again Paul says of the carnal mind, which mind we all have by nature, that it cant submit to God, and is enmity against Him Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be[inability].


Then those in the flesh, which again is all men by nature, cant please God Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot[inability] please God As long as anyone is in the flesh they cant do anything to please or obey God, hence by only disobedience.

 

[atpollard]

I think you stopped reading Ephesians 2 too soon ...

Ephesians 2:1-10
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

While it seems true that we, all human beings, are incapable of pleasing God through the strength or merit of human efforts ... so what? You neglect to mention the GOOD NEWS that our righteousness is not required. Our salvation is not based on our merit, but on the grace of God. Thus we have no NEED to work to please God and are free to please him apart from our works. It is like the difference between taking a test that will be part of your grade, and making a card for teacher appreciation day. The first is all about WORKS and MERIT, while the second is all about LOVE and RELATIONSHIPS.

 

[ezrider]

The reason why they're the sons or children of disobedience is because they cant obey God.

They are called the children of disobedience because cause they remain obedient to the works of the law.

 

[smaller]

Eph 2:2-3

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Even the elect of God cant render any obedience of God, because they partake of the same disobedient nature and spirit as does the children of disobedience.

The reason why they're the sons or children of disobedience is because they cant obey God.

This thought is no different than what Paul teaches in Rom 3:9-12 man by nature, under sin, doesnt understand nor seek after the True God:


What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


This speaks to inability. Again Paul says of the carnal mind, which mind we all have by nature, that it cant submit to God, and is enmity against Him Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be[inability].


Then those in the flesh, which again is all men by nature, cant please God Rom 8:8

So then they that are in the flesh cannot[inability] please God As long as anyone is in the flesh they cant do anything to please or obey God, hence by only disobedience.

The "flesh" of all, even believers, is factually against the Spirit and contrary to the Spirit and vice versa, no matter what the fleshly inclinations may otherwise claim. Gal. 5:17, Phil. 3:21.

 

[bcbsr]

But can obey God by the renewed nature.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 1John 3:9

Rom 8:
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[smaller]

But can obey God by the renewed nature.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 1John 3:9

Rom 8:
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

It is no leap of reason to understand that the sin indwelling the flesh of Paul which he termed "NO MORE I" twice in Romans 7:17 & 20 and the evil present with him, Romans 7:21, were NOT cooperative with the Gospel.

Trying to paint the whole package of Paul as "cooperative" won't work, as that clearly is not substantiated by the facts, as Paul gave them.

Paul actually gives us a picture of internal warring from those workings in Romans 7:7-13 and also here:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[Jim Parker]

Thus we have no NEED to work to please God and are free to please him apart from our works.

That's like saying to your wife, "We're married now; I have no need to work to please you." Try that and see how it works for you.

According to scripture, whether we are given eternal life or are condemned to the second death will be determined by our works.

Jesus said: John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said: Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Jesus said: Mat 25:31-46 (NKJV) When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.

Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?”

And the King will answer and say to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”

Then they also will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?”

Then He will answer them, saying, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.”

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

John 3:36 (NKJV) He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

1 Pe 1:17 (NKJV) And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

Jas 1:22 (NKJV) But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

So, when someone says that we don't have to do anything to be saved, he deceives himself and everyone to whom he says that false teaching. While it is true that we cannot "earn" our salvation by doing good works (salvation is a gift) neither will we be saved is we neglect the good works for which God created us and which He commanded us to do when He said to love god and your neighbor as yourself. (Luke 10:27-28)

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

While it is true that we cannot "earn" our salvation by doing good works (salvation is a gift) neither will we be saved is we neglect the good works

iakov the fool

It's unfortunate when positions can't see the blatant logical fallacy they are obviously engaged with. Especially when the position tries to play it both ways.

I've used this observation many times, as a typical error in reasoning that exists in orthodoxy.

They take position A. The Word has given all truth to the church's officiates. Therefore the church officiates are the only ones with all truth.

The unfortunate part of the reasoning employed is within 'all truth' there are several disclaimers, such as the church officiates only see darkly, know in part.

Therefore having "all truth" is tempered by that fact, which is part of "all truth." The person who claims to have "all truth" is the one who submits to the facts that 'all truth' brings, which is the fact of knowing only in part. A bit of a more complex comparison than the obvious gaffe deployed above.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So, Paul takes us down REASON ROAD in matters of "works."

And we make some basic, casual discoveries. We find out that indwelling sin, LO and BEHOLD, is an indwelling reality of the flesh, AND works 'against' and contrary to the law, and does so by the insertion of "sinful thoughts." Jesus for example tells us that "evil thoughts" defile us. Essentially the same statement Paul shows us in Romans 7:7-13 in more detail than how Jesus describes this "essential principle" in Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28 for examples.

Paul, heading down REASON ROAD then makes again, a very BASIC discovery, that when he does GOOD, the fact is, evil is also present with him. Romans 7:21.

There is no remedy to these facts. No logical way to DODGE THEM. The reality of reason road will divulge that indwelling sin and evil present with us can not comply with the requirements of either the Gospel OR the Law. They are factual adverse workings that we all have present with us. There is no way to "excuse or escape" the reasonable conclusion that Paul draws out in Gal. 5:17, where he shows that the Spirit is actually contrary to and against the flesh.

Hence Paul's Gospel is based entirely on salvation by faith, through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ our Lord.

The works folk try to play it both ways. But the works folk are not able to end run the reality of having evil present with us and indwelling sin, which operations can NEVER be justified on ANY basis in ANYONE.

That puts works salvation OFF the table. And takes us out of the realm of "double dealing" the subject matter, engaging in logical fallacies.

The fact is Jesus DOES save those who call upon Him. Good works arise by nature of the Spirit. But the Spirit is not OUT TO GET US by tossing us in permanent hell, if we don't.

The intent then of the Spirit is always to the good, and to good works. And simultaneously against indwelling sin and evil present. The HOPE of the Gospel is that at some point we will no longer have to deal with the resisting side of the ledgers. Phil. 3:21. But we should at least have some awareness of it, and that there is a bit of a battle that goes on, perpetually. And even more importantly, to SPEAK HONESTLY about it, rather than hiding behind logical fallacies. Everybody knows that guy with the big fancy hat, the long robes and the even longer pontifications is just as much the sinner as everyone else. And we are fools to think otherwise.

Paul claimed himself the chief of sinners, AFTER salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15. Paul spoke 'honestly.' It's only unfortunate that IF church officiates spoke that honestly, probably a lot less people would show up to actually listen.

 

[atpollard]

According to scripture, whether we are given eternal life or are condemned to the second death will be determined by our works.

Jesus said: John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:24-30
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

(Edited by staff)

 

[Jim Parker]

Even the elect of God cant render any obedience of God, because they partake of the same disobedient nature and spirit as does the children of disobedience.

oi veh
That's mishegoss
If anyone does (even one time) what God says to do, because God said to do it then he had been obedient to God.
If someone hears the Gospel, repents and believes the Gospel, he is being obedient to God who said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:15 RSV)