Catholic argument against sola scriptura refuted. Willing and able to take on his replacements

[Alfred Persson]

TMal3 said:

You again keep misrepresenting what I say and then attacking your strawman creations to make you feel like you’ve proven something when you've proven nothing. "What today is deemed scripture by all the church throughout the world" is what I deem as divinely inspired, infallible, authoritative sacred Scripture too, so stop saying I don't. Stop trying to create these strawman positions that I don't hold. That's is disingenuous.

And your "argument" is the most convoluted piece of eisegesis I think I've ever seen to force Scripture to say what you want it to say, instead of letting it speak for itself. And even if I grant you said argument, 2 Tim 3 still only refers to the Old Testament.

(You also conflate "the word of God" with "Scripture" when the apostles usually use these terms separately. Thus, for example, in 2 Tim 3.16-17 Paul speaks of Scripture, but in the same letter in 2 Tim 2.8-9 refers to the gospel message as "the word of God.":

2 Timothy 2.8-9
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!

Try to be a good listener: I too believe the Bible is the "Word of God" in that it is divine revelation. But that still doesn't change the fact that references in the Bible to the "Word of God" are not referring to the Bible, which didn't yet exist (and you know it, so it's absurd to try to deny it)

1. The Bible is the Word of God in that it is inspired divine revelation--FACT
2. The phrase "Word of God" in the Bible is not referring to the Bible--ALSO FACT

*But sure, you keep pretending I'm saying something else.

The "self-contradiction" in your argument is its fatal flaw. Catholic polemic against sola scriptura is unsound and absurd because of these elementary facts: Scripture is the "word of God" and therefore the phrase "the word of God" does refer to Scripture generally. End of argument.

It is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent the phrase can be found also referring to Jesus as "the Word of God" or Paul's oral tradition as "the Word of God", because Paul obviously that tradition (and more!) in his writings---Today Paul's writings ARE Holy Scripture:

For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. (1 Thess. 2:13 NKJ)

And Peter called Paul's writings Scripture:

15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (2 Pet. 3:15-16 NKJ)

Peter says Paul "speaks" in his epistles = apostolic oral tradition written down, the Word of God Scripture.

Suppose Jesus' words were passed down generation after generation, and finally someone wrote the four gospels down and today we call it scripture. Do we then conclude the phrase "the word of God" does not refer to the Gospels?

Recall Jesus called His teachings the "Word of God":

So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear the word of God, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret, (Lk. 5:1 NKJ)

Not only were many things Jesus taught the masses recorded in Scripture, much of what only the disciples heard is there also. So your argument the phrase the "word of God" proves the Catholic Church has "word of God" Protestants do not, contradicts history. History, God's-Story. God knew how to get the Word of God written down, how faithless is it to suppose that was left to chance?



Catholic polemic against sola scriptura fails for another main reason, already mentioned. Catholics don't have the Word of God apart from the Scriptures. If they did, they would write it down and share it with us. The text, not their pontifications pretending to be infallible.


That Catholics do NOT have anything superior to Protestants, even though we are divided into many denominations, is proved by the constant change in Catholicism.

There are many versions of it throughout history begging the question "which version is correct?"

To illustrate, Catholics of the first few centuries would have been slain if they teleported into the future and landed in Spain during the Spanish inquisition.

 

[donadams]

Is the church founded by Christ dependent on scripture?

Did the church exist before the New Testament?

Did the church exercise authority in teaching and sanctifying men unto eternal salvation before the New Testament was written?

Did the church write the New Testament even as the church is the new testament in His blood?

Original KJV had the 73 books of the
Cannon approved by the council of Rome and promulgated by papal authority in 381!

The authority of Christ in His apostolic church gave is the authentic scriptures, and the authentic interpretation!

For hundreds of years the authority of Christ acted and operated in His apostolic church without scripture, and the apostolic church wrote the New Testament.

The apostolic church is not dependent upon scripture:
The apostolic church does not need scripture to know truth, Christ taught “all truth” Jude 1:3 to His apostolic church in person for three years, the church does not need scripture to exercise her authority from Christ to teach and sanctify all nations unto eternal salvation, and to govern the church.

And it was those monks that spent their lives copying scripture, Bibles or individual books were very rare and very expensive eve. After the printing press until the mass production of the 20th century, and until then most peoples were illiterate. So without monks you would not have scripture!


By what authority did Luther have to reject Jude, hebrews, James and revelation or the English Bible society to reject seven books of the Old Testament? No authority none are apostles, only by the whims of the “tradition of men”!

If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority!

A violation of your doctrine is “the Bible is the only authority”!


If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority! To believe you is adding to scripture alone!

Would that not violate your doctrine of “the Bible is the only authority”!

“Bible alone” means just that, an unopened book on a table!
To open it would be adding to scripture:
To read it would be adding to scripture:
To interpret it would be adding to scripture:

Just Using an absurdity to illustrate the nature of a false doctrine!


Scripture verses that support the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

When they could no more defend the “Bible is our only authority” quickly changed it to the “Bible is the ultimate authority” but God, father, son, and Holy Spirit are the ultimate authority!

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

 

[donadams]

What about the divine and apostolic tradition?

Is it not also God breathed word of God?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Is the church founded by Christ dependent on scripture?

Did the church exist before the New Testament?

Did the church exercise authority in teaching and sanctifying men unto eternal salvation before the New Testament was written?

Did the church write the New Testament even as the church is the new testament in His blood?

Original KJV had the 73 books of the
Cannon approved by the council of Rome and promulgated by papal authority in 381!

The authority of Christ in His apostolic church gave is the authentic scriptures, and the authentic interpretation!

For hundreds of years the authority of Christ acted and operated in His apostolic church without scripture, and the apostolic church wrote the New Testament.

The apostolic church is not dependent upon scripture:
The apostolic church does not need scripture to know truth, Christ taught “all truth” Jude 1:3 to His apostolic church in person for three years, the church does not need scripture to exercise her authority from Christ to teach and sanctify all nations unto eternal salvation, and to govern the church.

And it was those monks that spent their lives copying scripture, Bibles or individual books were very rare and very expensive eve. After the printing press until the mass production of the 20th century, and until then most peoples were illiterate. So without monks you would not have scripture!


By what authority did Luther have to reject Jude, hebrews, James and revelation or the English Bible society to reject seven books of the Old Testament? No authority none are apostles, only by the whims of the “tradition of men”!

If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority!

A violation of your doctrine is “the Bible is the only authority”!


If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority! To believe you is adding to scripture alone!

Would that not violate your doctrine of “the Bible is the only authority”!

“Bible alone” means just that, an unopened book on a table!
To open it would be adding to scripture:
To read it would be adding to scripture:
To interpret it would be adding to scripture:

Just Using an absurdity to illustrate the nature of a false doctrine!


Scripture verses that support the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

When they could no more defend the “Bible is our only authority” quickly changed it to the “Bible is the ultimate authority” but God, father, son, and Holy Spirit are the ultimate authority!

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Yes, the Church depends on scripture for the teaching of Christ the LORD, and His apostles.

Babies grow in the womb before eating food, does that prove they don't need food as they grow up?

No, Christ did and He sent the Helper who wrote scripture, because the church needs it.

No, KJV originally put the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical books in an appendix, separate from the 66 books main body of the Old and New Testaments. The total was 80.

Christ declared Himself our "Teacher", and said we are all brothers:

8 "But you, do not be called`Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. (Matt. 23:8-12 NKJ)

According to Catholic tradition and Vatican sources, the New Testament is believed to have been written by various authors who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Here is a list of the traditional authors attributed to the New Testament books:

1. Gospel of Matthew - traditionally attributed to the apostle Matthew, also known as Levi.
2. Gospel of Mark - traditionally attributed to John Mark, a companion of the apostle Peter.
3. Gospel of Luke - traditionally attributed to Luke, a companion of the apostle Paul and a physician.
4. Gospel of John - traditionally attributed to the apostle John, one of the twelve disciples of Jesus.
5. Acts of the Apostles - traditionally attributed to the author of the Gospel of Luke, who is traditionally identified as Luke.
6. Letter to the Romans - attributed to the apostle Paul.
7. First Corinthians - attributed to the apostle Paul.
8. Second Corinthians - attributed to the apostle Paul.
9. Galatians - attributed to the apostle Paul.
10. Ephesians - attributed to the apostle Paul.
11. Philippians - attributed to the apostle Paul.
12. Colossians - attributed to the apostle Paul.
13. First Thessalonians - attributed to the apostle Paul.
14. Second Thessalonians - attributed to the apostle Paul.
15. First Timothy - attributed to the apostle Paul.
16. Second Timothy - attributed to the apostle Paul.
17. Titus - attributed to the apostle Paul.
18. Philemon - attributed to the apostle Paul.
19. Hebrews - authorship is uncertain, traditionally attributed to Paul, but the exact author is unknown.
20. James - traditionally attributed to James, the brother of Jesus.
21. First Peter - traditionally attributed to the apostle Peter.
22. Second Peter - traditionally attributed to the apostle Peter.
23. First John - traditionally attributed to the apostle John.
24. Second John - traditionally attributed to the apostle John.
25. Third John - traditionally attributed to the apostle John.
26. Jude - traditionally attributed to Jude, a brother of James.
27. Revelation - attributed to the apostle John.

-ChatGPT

There are different versions of the Catholic Church down through history. But Christ's Truth does not change with time. Therefore, because the Catholic Church didn't rely exclusively on Scripture it's VERSION of the truth keeps changing.

If a Roman Catholic of the 2nd century teleported in time to Spain during the Inquisition, he would have been burned on a stake for heresy. His version of Truth I would agree with, so I would burn with him.

Luther didn't get his way on the canon. He is irrelevant.

If God didn't expect we could read and understand the Bible, He wouldn't have caused it to be written.

Under the principle of sola scriptura, the Bible alone is the inspired and inerrant Word of God....The final authority in matters of faith. Scripture alone contains all that is necessary for salvation and the Christian life. However, sola scriptura does not deny the value or use of non-divine data in general matters such as historical, scientific, or cultural understanding.

Sola scriptura wasn't changed to accommodate Catholic apologetic.

Those verse don't remotely contradict Sola scriptura and here are two you left out:

But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29 NKJ)

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

As Scripture makes us complete we don't need The Papal Magisterium, The Ecumenical Councils, the College of Bishops, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium:

Besides, they can't seem to decide on a "final version" of the Catholic faith, they keep making changes! The Bible don't change!

 

[Paul Timothy]

Lets look at the contradictions to the Bible being the ONLY AUTHORITY.

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14

14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
...Jesus says do not hide your witness/testimony/influence/etc... nothing about the Scripture not being authoritative.

Matt 13:11

11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
...Jesus explaining why He taught in parables... nothing about Scripture not being authoritative.

Matt 18:17

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it to the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be to you as an heathen man and a publican.
... this is Church discipline... nothing about Scripture not being authoritative.

Matt 28:19

19 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
...Great Commission... nothing about Scripture not being authoritative.

Lk 1:4

4 That you might know the certainty of those things, wherein you have been instructed.
...Luke explaining why he wrote the Gospel Luke... nothing about Scripture not being authoritative.

Lk 10:16

16 He that hears you hears me; and he that despises you despises me; and he that despises me despises him that sent me.
...Jesus warns cities that have rejected Him what will happen to them... nothing about Scripture.

Jn 8:32

32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
...how do you know the truth if you don't read the Scriptures... this would be a verse that enforces the authority of Scripture.

Jn 16:13

13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
...The Spirit will guide you into all truth... but will the Spirit contradict the Scriptures... another verse for the authority of Scripture.

Jn 20:21

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be to you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I you.
...Jesus sends out the disciples... and they write the Scriptures... so their authority is written down... another one for the pro Sola Scriptura camp.

Acts 1:8

8 But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come on you: and you shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth.
...disciples get the power... then they write the Scriptures... so again, authority of the Scriptures.

Acts 2:42

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
...that the apostles wrote down... so we follow the apostles by recognizing the authority of what they wrote. Pro Sola.

Acts 8:26

26 And the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south to the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, which is desert.
...there is no authority in question here... irrelevant.

Acts 8:31

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
...Philip used the Scriptures to show the man Jesus... the very definition of the authority of Scripture.

Acts 18:25

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spoke and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
...I thought the verse 24 was important to add... Verse 24 shows that Apollos was using the authority of Scripture. Sola Scriptura wins again.

Rom 10:15

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
...preach the Gospel... as written... Sola for the point.

1 cor 4:11

11 Even to this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;
...I have no idea how you could say this refutes Scriptural authority... irrelevant.

1 cor 11:23

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered to you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
...and we have received it written down... Scriptural authority again.

1 thes 2:23

This reference does not exist.

2 thes 2:15

15 Therefore, brothers, stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word, or our letter.
...if you hear it or read it, stand fast to the Scriptural authority.

Col 2:7

7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
...taught from the Scriptures... Scriptural authority all over the place.

Eph 4:5

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
...nothing about Scripture at all... irrelevant.

Heb 13:7

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken to you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
...I thought verse 8 was relevant... if Jesus never changes then the Scriptures would be the bedrock of authority for our modern times.

Heb 13:17

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
...this lovely passage just tells me that is a teacher goes off the rails they will have to answer to the Highest Power... and we should not give a teacher grief if we don't like their teaching... if anything this should put the fear of God into anyone who would differ from Scriptural authority.

1 Tim 3:15

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
...be a good dad... I don't see how this applies to Scriptural authority... irrelevant.

1 Jn 1:3-5

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we to you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we to you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
...this passage just screams the importance of Scriptural authority... the written message is our standard.

2 Jn 1:12

12 Having many things to write to you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come to you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
...the importance of what is written... but time is short and personal visits are nicer... but nothing that says Scripture is not the ultimate authority.

Jude 1:3

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write to you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write to you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.
...all about the written word... nothing here says Scripture is not the authority.


Long list... but I see nothing in your list that is on your side of the ledger.
Maybe you missed a few verses that actually back your claims.

 

[donadams]

Spiritual anarchy
Disobedience
Protests rebellion
Are of pride the glorious virtues of Jesus Christ!

 

[Paul Timothy]

Spiritual anarchy
Disobedience
Protests rebellion
Are of pride the glorious virtues of Jesus Christ!

All things I find in the RCC.

 

[Niblo]

All things I find in the RCC.

And nowhere else within the Christian community?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The argument states: "The phrase 'Word of God' in the Bible never refers specifically to the Scripture, only to the oral traditions of the apostles."

The counter-argument:

The argument contains an inherent contradiction that weakens its validity. It appears that the critique against the principle of sola scriptura (Scripture alone) falls short when we examine the fundamental understanding of what Scripture is. At its core, Scripture is undeniably the "Word of God," and so, it logically follows that the phrase "Word of God" does, in fact, encapsulate Scripture. This, in essence, addresses the main contention.

While it is true that the phrase "Word of God" also denotes other aspects, like referring to Jesus as "the Word of God" or Paul's oral teachings, these contexts do not negate its application to Scripture. In fact, they reinforce the scriptural authority as they are components of the broader canon that today we recognize as Holy Scripture. The writings of Paul, initially oral traditions, are perfect examples of this evolution. As he states in 1 Thessalonians 2:13, "For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe."

Further strengthening this argument, Apostle Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture in 2 Peter 3:15-16, "and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." Here, Peter equates Paul's written word, initially transmitted orally, with the "rest of the Scriptures", thereby cementing Paul's epistles as part of the biblical canon, the 'Word of God'.

Thus, the initial assertion that the "Word of God" exclusively refers to oral tradition is not fully accurate. The term "Word of God," while broad and versatile, indisputably encompasses Scripture, making Scripture a central part of God's communicated truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

https://scontent.fiad1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/357070030_288569190228082_8186149056573571853_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p526x296&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=3AaR7dqq8kQAX8J1F0h&_nc_ht=scontent.fiad1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDdCmitqhVYVC9nL3o60LRAVXO2TmjAEgm2rGg9cK8w2A&oe=64A6B0D7

 

[donadams]

The argument states: "The phrase 'Word of God' in the Bible never refers specifically to the Scripture, only to the oral traditions of the apostles."

The counter-argument:

The argument contains an inherent contradiction that weakens its validity. It appears that the critique against the principle of sola scriptura (Scripture alone) falls short when we examine the fundamental understanding of what Scripture is. At its core, Scripture is undeniably the "Word of God," and so, it logically follows that the phrase "Word of God" does, in fact, encapsulate Scripture. This, in essence, addresses the main contention.

While it is true that the phrase "Word of God" also denotes other aspects, like referring to Jesus as "the Word of God" or Paul's oral teachings, these contexts do not negate its application to Scripture. In fact, they reinforce the scriptural authority as they are components of the broader canon that today we recognize as Holy Scripture. The writings of Paul, initially oral traditions, are perfect examples of this evolution. As he states in 1 Thessalonians 2:13, "For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe."

Further strengthening this argument, Apostle Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture in 2 Peter 3:15-16, "and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." Here, Peter equates Paul's written word, initially transmitted orally, with the "rest of the Scriptures", thereby cementing Paul's epistles as part of the biblical canon, the 'Word of God'.

Thus, the initial assertion that the "Word of God" exclusively refers to oral tradition is not fully accurate. The term "Word of God," while broad and versatile, indisputably encompasses Scripture, making Scripture a central part of God's communicated truth.

Scripture yes (all complete 73 books) ever read Dan 13 story of holy pure and faithful Susana?
Scripture alone no!
Scripture indicates tradition (teaching authority of the apostolic church)


Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ is the truth and the word same for the church

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15
Thanks

 

[Paul Timothy]

Scripture yes (all complete 73 books) ever read Dan 13 story of holy pure and faithful Susana?
Scripture alone no!
Scripture indicates tradition (teaching authority of the apostolic church)


Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ is the truth and the word same for the church

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15
Thanks

I've already dis-proven almost all these verses as not talking about what you say they are.
Also you state that individuals can not know truth but must be taught truth by some authority.
So where do you get the authority to post this?

 

[Manonfire63]

The main purpose behind Sola Scriptura was to supercede certain Catholic beliefs in extra Biblical things like purgatory. One the reasons Theology is not part of Philosophy has been due to Revelation. Certain extra Biblical things were Revealed unto Christian men, and became part of Catholic tradition. Sola Scriptura was the Reformations way of superseding all that tradition. Was some of the tradition wrong or off? That is different conversation. What was done in the Reformation was not from God, and it was off.

Scripture is a guide. Scripture may help align someone with The Prophets and the Saints. A lot of people forget about the Prophets. They were men separated by time space, of whom, God spoke through. God does not lie. Given God spoke through someone, it came to pass. Before there was a New Testament, Apostle Paul taught out of the Book Isaiah. We read The New Testament from an Old Testament understanding.

Scripture is a guide towards a man aligning himself with the Prophets and The Apostles and Saints and God.

Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Philippians 2:2

Given a group of men are growing in faith together, they may learn to think more alike. They may learn to see things more as God sees them. In that alignment, there may be Revelation. Someone recieves something from God, and he gives testimony to it at Church, and like minded men and Church elders, they pray and discuss it. Scripture is a guide.

Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:3)

What is the context of 1 Corinthains 6:3? What did the angels do wrong that they are to be judged? Why does man get to judge them? The answers to the questions are not explicitly stated in the Bible. It is implied understanding. Scripture is a guide for someone to align themselves to hear from God. The Holy Ghost is a teacher and a councilor.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The main purpose behind Sola Scriptura was to supercede certain Catholic beliefs in extra Biblical things like purgatory.

The statement that the main purpose behind Sola Scriptura was to supersede certain Catholic beliefs in extra-Biblical things like purgatory is not entirely correct. Here are several reasons why:

1. Historical context: Sola Scriptura was a key principle of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. It emerged as a response to what reformers believed were certain abuses and corruptions within the Catholic Church, such as the sale of indulgences and the authority of the Pope. The primary aim of Sola Scriptura was to emphasize the authority of Scripture as the ultimate source of Christian doctrine, rather than to specifically target Catholic beliefs like purgatory.
2. Diverse Protestant perspectives: While Sola Scriptura is a foundational principle for many Protestant denominations, it does not imply a unified rejection of all Catholic beliefs. Protestants hold a wide range of views on various theological topics, including purgatory. Some Protestant denominations, such as Anglicanism and Lutheranism, have retained a belief in a form of purgatory or a similar concept, albeit with differences from the Catholic understanding.
3. Scriptural authority: Sola Scriptura emphasizes the primacy of Scripture in matters of faith and doctrine. Its proponents argue that all beliefs and practices should be tested and evaluated in light of the Bible. However, the rejection of certain Catholic beliefs like purgatory is not solely based on Sola Scriptura but involves differing interpretations of Scripture and theological arguments.
4. Development of doctrine: The concept of purgatory, as understood by the Catholic Church, evolved over centuries through theological reflection and development. It was not simply an "extra-Biblical" belief imposed by the Catholic Church. The Catholic understanding of purgatory draws from various biblical passages, early Christian traditions, and theological reasoning.
5. Reformation concerns: The Protestant Reformation was driven by broader issues of authority, theology, and salvation. The reformers sought to address what they perceived as departures from biblical teachings, not solely to supersede specific Catholic beliefs. The emphasis on Sola Scriptura was part of a broader reformation effort to reevaluate and reform many aspects of Christian doctrine and practice.

While it is true that the principle of Sola Scriptura led to differences between Protestants and Catholics on various theological matters, it is an oversimplification to claim that its main purpose was to supersede Catholic beliefs specifically related to purgatory or other extra-Biblical concepts.

 

[donadams]

V

Original KJV had the 73 books of the
Cannon approved by the council of Rome and promulgated by papal authority in 381!

The authority of Christ in His apostolic church gave is the authentic scriptures, and the authentic interpretation!

For hundreds of years the authority of Christ acted and operated in His apostolic church without scripture, and the apostolic church wrote the New Testament.

The apostolic church is not dependent upon scripture:
The apostolic church does not need scripture to know truth, Christ taught “all truth” Jude 1:3 to His apostolic church in person for three years, the church does not need scripture to exercise her authority from Christ to teach and sanctify all nations unto eternal salvation, and to govern the church.

And it was those monks that spent their lives copying scripture, Bibles or individual books were very rare and very expensive eve. After the printing press until the mass production of the 20th century, and until then most peoples were illiterate. So without monks you would not have scripture!


By what authority did Luther have to reject Jude, hebrews, James and revelation or the English Bible society to reject seven books of the Old Testament? No authority none are apostles, only by the whims of the “tradition of men”!

If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority!

A violation of your doctrine is “the Bible is the only authority”!


If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority! To believe you is adding to scripture alone!

Would that not violate your doctrine of “the Bible is the only authority”!

“Bible alone” means just that, an unopened book on a table!
To open it would be adding to scripture:
To read it would be adding to scripture:
To interpret it would be adding to scripture:

Just Using an absurdity to illustrate the nature of a false doctrine!


Scripture verses that support the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

When they could no more defend the “Bible is our only authority” quickly changed it to the “Bible is the ultimate authority” but God, father, son, and Holy Spirit are the ultimate authority!

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15



The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority” excludes the authority of God, Christ, and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the teaching authority of Christ in his apostolic church and the ministry of Angels!
Acts 8:26

 

[Paul Timothy]

V

Original KJV had the 73 books of the
Cannon approved by the council of Rome and promulgated by papal authority in 381!

The authority of Christ in His apostolic church gave is the authentic scriptures, and the authentic interpretation!

For hundreds of years the authority of Christ acted and operated in His apostolic church without scripture, and the apostolic church wrote the New Testament.

The apostolic church is not dependent upon scripture:
The apostolic church does not need scripture to know truth, Christ taught “all truth” Jude 1:3 to His apostolic church in person for three years, the church does not need scripture to exercise her authority from Christ to teach and sanctify all nations unto eternal salvation, and to govern the church.

And it was those monks that spent their lives copying scripture, Bibles or individual books were very rare and very expensive eve. After the printing press until the mass production of the 20th century, and until then most peoples were illiterate. So without monks you would not have scripture!


By what authority did Luther have to reject Jude, hebrews, James and revelation or the English Bible society to reject seven books of the Old Testament? No authority none are apostles, only by the whims of the “tradition of men”!

If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority!

A violation of your doctrine is “the Bible is the only authority”!


If you have an interpretation or understanding of scripture then you must be an authority! To believe you is adding to scripture alone!

Would that not violate your doctrine of “the Bible is the only authority”!

“Bible alone” means just that, an unopened book on a table!
To open it would be adding to scripture:
To read it would be adding to scripture:
To interpret it would be adding to scripture:

Just Using an absurdity to illustrate the nature of a false doctrine!


Scripture verses that support the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

When they could no more defend the “Bible is our only authority” quickly changed it to the “Bible is the ultimate authority” but God, father, son, and Holy Spirit are the ultimate authority!

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15



The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority” excludes the authority of God, Christ, and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the teaching authority of Christ in his apostolic church and the ministry of Angels!
Acts 8:26

Did the church give you authority to post this?

 

[Manonfire63]

The statement that the main purpose behind Sola Scriptura was to supersede certain Catholic beliefs in extra-Biblical things like purgatory is not entirely correct. Here are several reasons why:

1. Historical context: Sola Scriptura was a key principle of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. It emerged as a response to what reformers believed were certain abuses and corruptions within the Catholic Church, such as the sale of indulgences and the authority of the Pope. The primary aim of Sola Scriptura was to emphasize the authority of Scripture as the ultimate source of Christian doctrine, rather than to specifically target Catholic beliefs like purgatory.
2. Diverse Protestant perspectives: While Sola Scriptura is a foundational principle for many Protestant denominations, it does not imply a unified rejection of all Catholic beliefs. Protestants hold a wide range of views on various theological topics, including purgatory. Some Protestant denominations, such as Anglicanism and Lutheranism, have retained a belief in a form of purgatory or a similar concept, albeit with differences from the Catholic understanding.
3. Scriptural authority: Sola Scriptura emphasizes the primacy of Scripture in matters of faith and doctrine. Its proponents argue that all beliefs and practices should be tested and evaluated in light of the Bible. However, the rejection of certain Catholic beliefs like purgatory is not solely based on Sola Scriptura but involves differing interpretations of Scripture and theological arguments.
4. Development of doctrine: The concept of purgatory, as understood by the Catholic Church, evolved over centuries through theological reflection and development. It was not simply an "extra-Biblical" belief imposed by the Catholic Church. The Catholic understanding of purgatory draws from various biblical passages, early Christian traditions, and theological reasoning.
5. Reformation concerns: The Protestant Reformation was driven by broader issues of authority, theology, and salvation. The reformers sought to address what they perceived as departures from biblical teachings, not solely to supersede specific Catholic beliefs. The emphasis on Sola Scriptura was part of a broader reformation effort to reevaluate and reform many aspects of Christian doctrine and practice.

While it is true that the principle of Sola Scriptura led to differences between Protestants and Catholics on various theological matters, it is an oversimplification to claim that its main purpose was to supersede Catholic beliefs specifically related to purgatory or other extra-Biblical concepts.

I am not a Catholic. I was raised Non-Denominational. I sort of live like a hermit more or less now living with God. I am more concerned with building The Kingdom of God. I found that a lot of the Protestant Reformers in the Reformation were knee jerking things. They were not so much about building the Kingdom of God, and being right with God. It appeared to be more so, about being "Not Catholic." Being Not Catholic became popular. You are correct that this may be an over simplification. Protestants have not been of "One Mind." (Philippians 2:2) Are there big divides today, in Catholicism and the Baptists and Methodists Churches over politics? There have been. That is a spiritual crisis.

1. such as the sale of indulgences

A sale of indulgences comes with an understanding of things Extra biblical and purgatory. That is what a lot of Protestant Reformers had issues with.

Given a Prophetic person, like Prophet Ezekiel, he may have corrected understanding. The Hittites, for example, they believed the son shared the sins of the father. God through prophet Ezekiel corrects them in Ezekiel 18. God does not judge the son for the sins of the father. What God through Prophet Ezekiel was doing wasa not the tone of the Protestant Reformation. The Reformation was like a Spiritual Bomb being dropped, and a lot of false shepherds popped up. A lot of people were talking from their mind or something else. It became popular among Protestant communities to appear "Not Catholic." Being "Not Catholic" worked its way into some theology. That is the wrong way.

Given someone wasn't a Seer, seeing the Spiritual, and of God, they may have issues trying to refute something like the Sale of Indulgences. They could perceive that it may have been wrong. They may not have had the authority to say so, nor the ability to argue against it. Sola Scriptura has been used to cut out anything considered extra-Biblical by some protestant denominations. There are quite a few areas in the Bible where there is implied knowledge. Implied knowledge may be between the lines, and seen in the context of creation through God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I am not a Catholic. I was raised Non-Denominational. I sort of live like a hermit more or less now living with God. I am more concerned with building The Kingdom of God. I found that a lot of the Protestant Reformers in the Reformation were knee jerking things. They were not so much about building the Kingdom of God, and being right with God. It appeared to be more so, about being "Not Catholic." Being Not Catholic became popular. You are correct that this may be an over simplification. Protestants have not been of "One Mind." (Philippians 2:2) Are there big divides today, in Catholicism and the Baptists and Methodists Churches over politics? There have been. That is a spiritual crisis.

1. such as the sale of indulgences

A sale of indulgences comes with an understanding of things Extra biblical and purgatory. That is what a lot of Protestant Reformers had issues with.

Given a Prophetic person, like Prophet Ezekiel, he may have corrected understanding. The Hittites, for example, they believed the son shared the sins of the father. God through prophet Ezekiel corrects them in Ezekiel 18. God does not judge the son for the sins of the father. What God through Prophet Ezekiel was doing wasa not the tone of the Protestant Reformation. The Reformation was like a Spiritual Bomb being dropped, and a lot of false shepherds popped up. A lot of people were talking from their mind or something else. It became popular among Protestant communities to appear "Not Catholic." Being "Not Catholic" worked its way into some theology. That is the wrong way.

Given someone wasn't a Seer, seeing the Spiritual, and of God, they may have issues trying to refute something like the Sale of Indulgences. They could perceive that it may have been wrong. They may not have had the authority to say so, nor the ability to argue against it. Sola Scriptura has been used to cut out anything considered extra-Biblical by some protestant denominations. There are quite a few areas in the Bible where there is implied knowledge. Implied knowledge may be between the lines, and seen in the context of creation through God.

I'm a hermit also, Christ's kingdom my focus. I pray God grant I depart a flaming light on a hill, so more go to Christ.

I'm not big on Protestantism, in some ways I prefer Eastern Orthodox. Catholics aren't all bad, I'm sure our heavenly Father won't cast away anyone who calls on the name of the LORD.

Funny, I once thought Billy Graham was too friendly with Catholics, no longer.

Martin Luther is a case in point, at first great but in later life, antisemite who said hateful things. Incredible when one knows:

salvation is of the Jews. (Jn. 4:22 NKJ)

Our Lord, His disciples, the prophets...all Jews! Paul says believers are Jews on the inside.

Catholicism saddens me, it could have been so much more. But same can be said about everyone, including me.

I sometimes leap before I look, I confused you with a Catholic against sola scriptura and didn't have time to read your entire post.

To me, sola scripture is Obeying God not men. But I understand many feel the need for someone to guide them, the Bible way to salvation is very easy to understand, but there are things that require diligent study and that isn't "the easy way." Many want things to be easy. Or they don't trust themselves, so they rely on others.

We should remember Christ's words when looking for spiritual direction. He identified the only thing false prophets cannot duplicate.... obedience to God..."Lawfulness":

13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matt. 7:13-23 NKJ)

 

[Mungo]

The statement that the main purpose behind Sola Scriptura was to supersede certain Catholic beliefs in extra-Biblical things like purgatory is not entirely correct. Here are several reasons why:

1. Historical context: Sola Scriptura was a key principle of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. It emerged as a response to what reformers believed were certain abuses and corruptions within the Catholic Church, such as the sale of indulgences and the authority of the Pope. The primary aim of Sola Scriptura was to emphasize the authority of Scripture as the ultimate source of Christian doctrine, rather than to specifically target Catholic

1. such as the sale of indulgences

A sale of indulgences comes with an understanding of things Extra biblical and purgatory. That is what a lot of Protestant Reformers had issues with.

The Catholic Church never sold indulgences.
One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."
(Catholic Answers)

 

[Mungo]

The main purpose behind Sola Scriptura was to supercede certain Catholic beliefs in extra Biblical things like purgatory.

Purgatory is not extra Biblical.