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Catholicism & Islam: Ties That Bind

R

Rick W

Guest
Previously posted by:
ronniechoate34

The above title became a source of controversy when I used it for a talk given at a recent prophecy conference. What I found curious about the commotion was that it came from Catholics (and some evangelicals) who had yet to hear my presentation. Furthermore, the title reflects the hope and prayers of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. Rome has been tilling this "common ground" with Islam for decades, as evidenced by the 1994 Vatican publication, Recognize the Spiritual Bonds Which Unite Us: 16 Years of Christian-Muslim Dialogue. Why, therefore, would anyone be upset by my simply repeating what the Roman Catholic Church very much desires?

Actually, the real controversy stems from confusion created by the Church of Rome herself. In her zeal to be the spiritual voice of the world's religions, she talks out of both sides of her ecumenical mouth. Regarding her relationship to Islam, not only has she made to those of the Muslim faith some theological overtures which contradict Christian orthodoxy, but even worse, there are ties between the two religions which go a lot deeper than most people realize. Let's first consider some commonalities between the two faiths.

Starting with the number of adherents, Catholicism and Islam each exceed one billion, nearly all of whom enter their respective faiths as infants. More than 16 million babies are baptized into the Roman Catholic Church each year. It's a family thing. My sisters and I were baptized as Catholics because our parents were Catholics, and they and their siblings were baptized into the Church because their parents were Catholics. That's the primary way the faith is propagated.

Practically speaking, although baptism is not part of Islam, all children born into a Muslim family are Muslims. Their official "confirmation" follows as soon as they are able to confess the shahada ("There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger"). This baby-oriented process for increasing their ranks has been a motivating factor in the Vatican/Saudi-sponsored lobby against UN endeavors to introduce contraception and other methods of population control, especially in third-world countries.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today; Catholicism is the largest religious body among those professing to be Christian. If the number of followers was a good measure for selecting a religion, then Islam and Catholicism would definitely be the way to go. However, the Bible has no such yardstick. Rather, Jesus said, "[W]ide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Mt 7:13,14).


http://www.reachingcatholics.org/cath_islam.html
 
I deleted the first as per the ToS but then realized it's allowed in End Times and reposted it.
The response wasn't much of a response anyway. Something on the lines of "nonsense" or some such thing.

You'll be getting a response again I'm quite sure.
 
Both religions (I would throw the Mormon's into this mix) encourage large families and impede birth control in one fashion or another. Dawkins introduced the ideas of memes and memeplexes to describe collections of ideas that have self-propagating features to them, in analogy to genes. Certainly the memeplexes for Catholicism and Islam exhibit such propagation concepts. For example, a Muslim who attempts to reject his faith is subject to death threats from believers and both religions have schools to inject their beliefs into the young.

This probably helps explain why these religions have been so successful.
 
Rick W said:
......The response wasn't much of a response anyway. Something on the lines of "nonsense" or some such thing.......

I'd say that pretty much sums it up. Perhaps "gobbldygook" would be more apt.

To take the 2000 year old Church established by Christ which consists of 75% of the world's Christians, and try to compare it to a false evil ideology like Islam, is at the same time nonsense, offensive, ridiculous, and a great example of sheer & utter ignorance.
 
Physicist said:
Both religions (I would throw the Mormon's into this mix) encourage large families and impede birth control in one fashion or another.......

I hate to tell you this but the3 Bible encourages large families. Children are Biblically considered a blessing, and a man with many children is said to be doubly blessed.

Good grief, read your Bibles. The Catholic Church went through the trouble to actually give you the Bible - the least you could do is read it.
 
Physicist said:
Both religions (I would throw the Mormon's into this mix) encourage large families and impede birth control in one fashion or another. Dawkins introduced the ideas of memes and memeplexes to describe collections of ideas that have self-propagating features to them, in analogy to genes. Certainly the memeplexes for Catholicism and Islam exhibit such propagation concepts. For example, a Muslim who attempts to reject his faith is subject to death threats from believers and both religions have schools to inject their beliefs into the young.

This probably helps explain why these religions have been so successful.

Somewhat off topic, but I just read an interesting article about the inventor of The Pill and his relationship with the Roman Catholic Church.

Back on Topic.....
 
Time out people!

If we can't establish some reference to End Times, I will have to terminate this topic. Sorry. :shrug
 
Vic C. said:
Time out people!

If we can't establish some reference to End Times, I will have to terminate this topic. Sorry. :shrug

If these people want to call my Church a false Church then I have the right to respond. So why did you delete my post?

Or is it okay for protestants only to go off topic?
 
TheCatholic said:
Vic C. said:
Time out people!

If we can't establish some reference to End Times, I will have to terminate this topic. Sorry. :shrug

If these people want to call my Church a false Church then I have the right to respond. So why did you delete my post?

Or is it okay for protestants only to go off topic?

Since when is an expose' an attack? I guess if you don't like the facts then you feel attacked for some reason. But still, you can't argue with the facts. Like it or not the truth still stands. Only a deluded mind would consider what is said on that particular web page an attack. I mean very deluded. Like someone who is suffering from delusions would be the only person that would consider showing parallels an attack. It's not like the guy is making his information up for slanderous purposes. It's all verifiable fact.
 
TheCatholic said:
Vic C. said:
Time out people!

If we can't establish some reference to End Times, I will have to terminate this topic. Sorry. :shrug

If these people want to call my Church a false Church then I have the right to respond. So why did you delete my post?

Or is it okay for protestants only to go off topic?
I want to see constructive posts that do not answer a copy/paste OP with another copy/paste for an RC source.

I want to see serious thinking, not parroting. Pick out a specific point or two to discuss and stop whining please.


ronniechoate34 said:
False religion is a huge part of the end times. So is unifying the religions.
I agree.
 
ronniechoate34 said:
Let's first consider some commonalities between the two faiths.

Starting with the number of adherents, Catholicism and Islam each exceed one billion, nearly all of whom enter their respective faiths as infants. More than 16 million babies are baptized into the Roman Catholic Church each year. It's a family thing. My sisters and I were baptized as Catholics because our parents were Catholics, and they and their siblings were baptized into the Church because their parents were Catholics. That's the primary way the faith is propagated.

Oh my gosh... Parents raising their children in the same faith that they are! What will the neighbors say??? Fortunately, non-Catholic Christian parents don't raise their children to be Christian - is THAT what the point of this is??? (please don't PM me on this, I am obviously being sarcastic...)

THIS was the "commonality" between Islam and Catholicism? Large families??? And teaching their children the faith? Good gravy, Batman...

Why not say that Muslims and Catholics are Earthlings, and leave it at that! EVERYONE would then see the evil of both religions... :screwloose

I thought that this might have some theological point to make, but when a person compares two religions by stating that they are the two largest religions as the tour de force -- and considers that a negative -- You have to wonder.. :grumpy

What does this have to do with the End Times, Moderators???
 
francisdesales said:
Oh my gosh... Parents raising their children in the same faith that they are! What will the neighbors say??? Fortunately, non-Catholic Christian parents don't raise their children to be Christian - is THAT what the point of this is??? (please don't PM me on this, I am obviously being sarcastic...)


Actually the point is to reveal the parallels that exist between the Catholic religion and the Islamic religion. Is that hard to understand? People don't seem to be grasping that.

francisdesales said:
THIS was the "commonality" between Islam and Catholicism? Large families??? And teaching their children the faith? Good gravy, Batman...


Did you read the entire tract? I doubt it based on this statement that you have made here. If you didn't then you should take a look at the entire thing before you speak on the matter.

francisdesales said:
Why not say that Muslims and Catholics are Earthlings, and leave it at that! EVERYONE would then see the evil of both religions... :screwloose


You've missed the point entirely.

francisdesales said:
I thought that this might have some theological point to make, but when a person compares two religions by stating that they are the two largest religions as the tour de force -- and considers that a negative -- You have to wonder.. :grumpy


Well the point is really that satan runs the entire outfit. With all of its pagan practices and symbols the whole thing is a blend. And isn't that satan's intent anyway, to blend all of the religions into one world religion that we can all accept in the name of peace and proper human relations?

francisdesales said:
What does this have to do with the End Times, Moderators???


What I just said. That's what.
 
ronniechoate34 said:
Actually the point is to reveal the parallels that exist between the Catholic religion and the Islamic religion. Is that hard to understand? People don't seem to be grasping that.

The "parallels" you bring up are about as useless to comparative religion discussions as the sarcastic remarks I made. Obviously, this is a lame attempt to link what most people here agree with - that Islam has evil elements - with Catholicism. By making this "comparitive link", people are supposed to think that Catholicism and Islam are similar - because parents teach their children from a very young age??? Large families??? Please...

francisdesales said:
THIS was the "commonality" between Islam and Catholicism? Large families??? And teaching their children the faith? Good gravy, Batman...

ronniechoate34 said:
Did you read the entire tract? I doubt it based on this statement that you have made here. If you didn't then you should take a look at the entire thing before you speak on the matter.

It claims there are two main "similarities". I read them. I didn't bother with the additional stuff they might have added on later. I read the points and found them silly.

I can say there are two similarities between Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Protestants and make an insidious conclusion, as well... The four are all related because every one of these groups are born from a women and are human... Thus, it is a worthless comparison... But the intent is to make a "link" which the audience would conclude equates the evil of Islam with Catholicism. I had thought there would be something of religious value, but I found nothing but a joke.

ronniechoate34 said:
Well the point is really that satan runs the entire outfit.

Yes, I know the POINT. :lol

The problem is the fallacious argument used to "achieve" the conclusion...

Muslims, which "everyone" knows is from "Satan", have lots of children. Catholics teach that we should not kill infants (a problem for some self-anointed "God fearing" Christians, apparently) and often have large families. The arguments do not lead to prove the conclusion, that both are run by Satan...

Thus, it fails to make the muster in the school of logic

ronniechoate34 said:
With all of its pagan practices and symbols the whole thing is a blend.

Yea, like Christmas trees, Advent wreaths, wedding rings, and such, it is so terrible... How can "real" Christians put up with this attempt to see God and His works through symbols...

ronniechoate34 said:
And isn't that satan's intent anyway, to blend all of the religions into one world religion

More non-Scriptural insanity...

One religion, Christianity...

Jesus told the Apostles to teach the Gospel to all nations. Christ died for ALL men... Salvation is available to ANY man who believes in Christ. There is no other name found under heaven that can save man.... Oh brother, are you serious? Have you considered that you are teaching the OPPOSITE of what Scriptures actually say???

Yea, one religion... Such a terrible thing - for Satan and his minions. Don't you know that where there is unity, there is God and where there is dissension, there is the devil?

francisdesales said:
What does this have to do with the End Times, Moderators???

ronniechoate34 said:
What I just said. That's what.

Where is this explicitly found, this idea of "one religion" that you have????
 
francisdesales said:
The "parallels" you bring up are about as useless to comparative religion discussions as the sarcastic remarks I made.


How are they useless. They are valid points. Idol worship exists in both religions.



francisdesales said:
Obviously, this is a lame attempt to link what most people here agree with - that Islam has evil elements - with Catholicism.


Actually it's to illustrate how Islam, Witchcraft, Catholicism and paganism are all intertwined. It's an illustration of the pagan elements of both religions and how the devil has blended the ancient mystery religions together to create theosophy.


francisdesales said:
By making this "comparitive link", people are supposed to think that Catholicism and Islam are similar - because parents teach their children from a very young age??? Large families??? Please...


For that reason and many other reasons listed that you obviously failed to take a look at.





francisdesales said:
It claims there are two main "similarities". I read them. I didn't bother with the additional stuff they might have added on later. I read the points and found them silly.


You are answering a matter before actually hearing the thing. Do you know what the Bible instructs us about that? It says not to do it, it's foolishness.

francisdesales said:
I can say there are two similarities between Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Protestants and make an insidious conclusion, as well...


That's because all of those things are/were satan incarnate. Just like paganism and false religion. There are parallels there because the same spirit runs both outfits.That's simple deduction.


francisdesales said:
The four are all related because every one of these groups are born from a women and are human... Thus, it is a worthless comparison... But the intent is to make a "link" which the audience would conclude equates the evil of Islam with Catholicism. I had thought there would be something of religious value, but I found nothing but a joke.


It's no joke at all. In fact it's nothing that you can disprove at all. This tract is full of solid facts that you can not tear down. Maybe that's why you were too worried to actually read the whole thing. Talk about a joke.



francisdesales said:
Yes, I know the POINT. :lol

The problem is the fallacious argument used to "achieve" the conclusion...


It's a solid argument. You can't even touch it.

francisdesales said:
Muslims, which "everyone" knows is from "Satan", have lots of children. Catholics teach that we should not kill infants (a problem for some self-anointed "God fearing" Christians, apparently) and often have large families. The arguments do not lead to prove the conclusion, that both are run by Satan...


Again, you speak out of your own ignorance.

francisdesales said:
Thus, it fails to make the muster in the school of logic


How can you be logical about this? You have not even studied the evidence.



francisdesales said:
Yea, like Christmas trees, Advent wreaths, wedding rings, and such, it is so terrible... How can "real" Christians put up with this attempt to see God and His works through symbols...


These symbols have always represented satanic ideas. Only ther blind and the dead believe that God wants us to present him with these things out of worship.





francisdesales said:
More non-Scriptural insanity...

One religion, Christianity...


Paganism and Idol worship is not Christianity. I don't care that someone slapped a Christian lable on it.

francisdesales said:
Jesus told the Apostles to teach the Gospel to all nations. Christ died for ALL men... Salvation is available to ANY man who believes in Christ.


Not unless that man is willing to receive the truth. The whole truth and not just a fraction of it.

francisdesales said:
There is no other name found under heaven that can save man.... Oh brother, are you serious? Have you considered that you are teaching the OPPOSITE of what Scriptures actually say???


I don't think that you have a clue what I am teaching. I don't think you care really. I just think you want to personally attack me.

francisdesales said:
Yea, one religion... Such a terrible thing - for Satan and his minions. Don't you know that where there is unity, there is God and where there is dissension, there is the devil?


Don't you know the antichrist when you see him?




francisdesales said:
Where is this explicitly found, this idea of "one religion" that you have????


If you have missed it then you wanted to miss it and you are willingly ignorant.
 
ronniechoate34 said:
How are they useless. They are valid points. Idol worship exists in both religions.

They are valid only to the person who doesn't mind reading false witness to uphold their false stereotypes... The Catholic Church doesn't teach idol worship. I don't know enough about Islam to state whether that is true, also. However, they absolutely abhor ANY sort of physical represenations of God, statues, pictures, whatever, so it is hard to imagine that they are involved in idol worship, either. False witness doesn't interest me...

ronniechoate34 said:
Actually it's to illustrate how Islam, Witchcraft, Catholicism and paganism are all intertwined. It's an illustration of the pagan elements of both religions and how the devil has blended the ancient mystery religions together to create theosophy.

Pagan elements that have been changed to elements leading to God. Thus, pagan symbols take on new, Christianized meanings.

I can't answer for Islam and the so-called "pagan elements" you perceive. Witchcraft utilizes pagan symbols for their intended "satanic" purpose, Catholicism changes the meaning of them, such as the Advent wreath or wedding rings to Christian meanings. The parallelism fails...

ronniechoate34 said:
That's because all of those things are/were satan incarnate. Just like paganism and false religion. There are parallels there because the same spirit runs both outfits.That's simple deduction.

You fail to understand that a conclusion of a deduction is DEPENDENT upon the truth of the premises and their validity. Would it be fair, based upon MY "premise" that I invented that the "conclusion" is correct? That by your process of coming to a conclusion, Protestantism is satan incarnate??? By showing an invalid relationship between Protestantism, Stalin, and other mass murders, is my conclusion valid?

Same here. I deny the arguments that you use, that Catholicism is pagan... The premises do not lead to the conclusions, especially when the premises are not even true...

Putting two vaguely similar ideas together and claiming one stems from the other is poor logic, and history... MIthra and Christianity co-existed. If I used your logic, I would say that Christianity developed from Mithra and an Isis cult that believed in a resurrected God who would save...

You need to show a better cause and effect to reach your conclusion that just pointing to an Advent wreath and speaking of its ancient background, concluding that the Catholic Church is pagan.

ronniechoate34 said:
In fact it's nothing that you can disprove at all. This tract is full of solid facts that you can not tear down.

:biglaugh

You don't know about me, do you...

I've heard them all before, and I am sure the gullible and already-convinced would enjoy this garbage. All they are is a re-hashing of a book written by Lorraine Boettner called "Roman Catholicism". Inaccurate portrayals of the Catholic Tradition as well as Strawman attacks. The book has been refuted piecemeal by those who are apologists. Even non-Catholic Christians see it as a poor attempt to refute Catholicism by using lies, strawman attacks and misleading statements.

ronniechoate34 said:
Maybe that's why you were too worried to actually read the whole thing. Talk about a joke.

I got bored, frankly. I've heard the dribble before... I realized that if I would have continued, I would have lost at least 5 IQ points...

ronniechoate34 said:
It's a solid argument. You can't even touch it.

:lol

I saw enough to see it is ludicrous garbage. It begins by trying to justify murdering innocent infants. Catholics and Muslims are alike because they have so many children... ?

What is the message there??? Open your eyes!

The author has an issue with those who are against killing infants, Catholics and Muslims. One must wonder why YOU do not side with them, as well, and are in full agreement with the author's propaganda. When a tract begins by attacking those who believe in the dignity of man and in life, made in the image of God, you have to wonder which "spirit" was behind it...

The Spirit of Life or Death...

Oh, but that went right over your head in your joy of posting an anti-Catholic tract...


ronniechoate34 said:
These symbols {Christmas trees, Advent wreaths, wedding rings} have always represented satanic ideas. Only ther blind and the dead believe that God wants us to present him with these things out of worship.

Baloney... you are totally in the dark of what "always represented satanic ideas"...

In addition, don't be so quick to assume what God wants.

ronniechoate34 said:
Paganism and Idol worship is not Christianity. I don't care that someone slapped a Christian lable on it.

I don't care about someone else's opinions that you merely post and mimic. I showed you Scriptural evidence that God INTENDS on the world having one religion - Christianity. God desires ALL men to know the truth, and we learn it from the teachings of the Apostles.

Oh, you just ignore that, don't you, ronnie...

Then, I ask for Scriptural citations that clearly show that the End Times will be marked by some "one religion" idea. NOT A WORD from ronnie...

All you provide is more dogma according to ronnie...

This is clear evidence that the intent of this discussion is not "End Times", but to attack Christians.

This has nothing to do with the end times... Just an opportunity to post anti-Catholic material under the guise of "End Times" discussion....
 
Please do not call other members ignorant; it's against the rules and it tempts the other member to counter insult. :salute

This topic is taken longer to focus than I first thought. If there is a correlation between the Bible and a one world religion, lets make it clear for those who may not see it. If there is scripture that indicates that the RCC is one possible culprit in this one world religion setup, that would be a good place to start also.

Make a good case to sell your beliefs and we may just have a good discussion. But so far, I'm not seeing anything constructive.


Don't you know the antichrist when you see him?
There's a start. :lol Using your Bibles, define antichrist.


This has nothing to do with the end times... Just an opportunity to post anti-Catholic material under the guise of "End Times" discussion....
You said it once already Joe,, no need to repeat it over and over and over. Let the Staff be the judge of deciding whether this turns into a legit topic or a waste of time. :bigfrown Let me try to focus this topic.
 
Vic C. said:
This topic is taken longer to focus than I first thought. If there is a correlation between the Bible and a one world religion, lets make it clear for those who may not see it.

Yea, I asked that, but didn't get anywhere...

Vic C. said:
:lol Using your Bibles, define antichrist.

A good idea...

Vic C. said:
You said it once already Joe,, no need to repeat it over and over and over. Let the Staff be the judge of deciding whether this turns into a legit topic or a waste of time. :bigfrown Let me try to focus this topic.

I repeated it at every place that I thought the post had nothing to do with the "End Times". Really, trying to compare Islam to Catholicism belongs in a comparitive religion thread. Where does John speak of Islam in Revelation??? John was writing to people of HIS day. Any literal application is to John's time. Everything in it is meant for people of 100 AD and trying to twist it to fit our own perceptions of politics and history can only lead to missing the spiritual meaning of Revelation. Such exercises are futile guesses, since no one can know when the world will end...

Regards
 
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