Catholicism & Islam: Ties That Bind

[JudaicChristian]

There is a true one world Christianity to come, they are called the Seven Lampsticks in Revelation 1:20. They are also known as Mount Zion. These seven congregations are the spirits of Yahwah, they range throughout the world. There are seven eyes upon that one stone.

 

[ronniechoate34]

I am sorry, I forgot to sign out.


I have been busy.


I will catch up later and reply to some of these posts.

 

[ronniechoate34]

They are valid only to the person who doesn't mind reading false witness to uphold their false stereotypes... The Catholic Church doesn't teach idol worship.

Prayers to the saints, asking Mary for intervention, kissing the feet of idols, and a host of other things that are idolatrous and pagan are practiced by the Catholic church. There is one mediator between God and man and we ALL have instant and open access to Him and the Holy Ghost is available with the gifts of the Spirit to every man. to every man.


1Tm:2:2: For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Tm:2:3: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Tm:2:4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Tm:2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Tm:2:6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


1Co:12:1: Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co:12:2: Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co:12:3: Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co:12:4: Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co:12:5: And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co:12:6: And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co:12:7: But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


Hallelujah!

I don't know enough about Islam to state whether that is true, also. However, they absolutely abhor ANY sort of physical represenations of God, statues, pictures, whatever, so it is hard to imagine that they are involved in idol worship, either. False witness doesn't interest me...

I think that what you are missing is the pagan beginning of Islam and the fact that allah was a pagan god at the time of Islams beginnings. In fact allah is still a pagan God.

Pagan elements that have been changed to elements leading to God. Thus, pagan symbols take on new, Christianized meanings.

That's such an obvious lie that no one should have to point it out to you. I mean come on man. Think about it. Would satan lie to you?

I can't answer for Islam and the so-called "pagan elements" you perceive. Witchcraft utilizes pagan symbols for their intended "satanic" purpose,

Witches don't believe in satan.

Catholicism changes the meaning of them, such as the Advent wreath or wedding rings to Christian meanings. The parallelism fails...

Catholicism changes nothing. Especially not this,,,


De:12:29: When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
De:12:30: Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying,How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
De:12:31: Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
De:12:32: What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.


Fallen Rome's pagan practices, Egypt's, Babylon's. They are all there.

You fail to understand that a conclusion of a deduction is DEPENDENT upon the truth of the premises and their validity. Would it be fair, based upon MY "premise" that I invented that the "conclusion" is correct? That by your process of coming to a conclusion, Protestantism is satan incarnate??? By showing an invalid relationship between Protestantism, Stalin, and other mass murders, is my conclusion valid?

Stalin didn't believe in God, but he did meet with the pope.

Same here. I deny the arguments that you use, that Catholicism is pagan... The premises do not lead to the conclusions, especially when the premises are not even true...

Would you like me to compile a list of parallels between Catholicism and the many forms of pagan worship. That's spiritual adultery. I say that Catholicism and paganism must be one now.

Putting two vaguely similar ideas together and claiming one stems from the other is poor logic, and history... MIthra and Christianity co-existed. If I used your logic, I would say that Christianity developed from Mithra and an Isis cult that believed in a resurrected God who would save...

Your paganism is showing.


When Cyril, the Bishop of Alexandria, had openly embraced the cause of Isis, the Egyptian goddess, and had anthropomorphized her into Mary, the mother of God; and the trinitarian controversy had taken place; from that moment the Egyptian doctrine of the emanation of the creative God out of Emepht began to be tortured in a thousand ways, until the Councils had agreed upon the adoption of it as it now stands -- the disfigured Ternary of the kabalistic Solomon and Philo! But as its origin was yet too evident, the Word was no longer called the "Heavenly man," the primal Adam Kadmon, but became the Logos -- Christ, and was made as old as the "Ancient of the Ancient," his father. The concealed WISDOM became identical with its emanation, the DIVINE THOUGHT, and made to be regarded coequal and coeternal with its first manifestation.



http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu2-01.htm


With the destruction of the Mystery Schools and the Serapion [in Alexandria] two of the most serious obstacles in the path of the Christian Church were removed. But there still remained the third, and by far the most important obstacle -- the Neoplatonic School. The "honor" of destroying this School belongs to Cyril, the nephew of Theophilus, who in 412 had succeeded him in his high position of Bishop of Alexandria. Cyril is remembered in Christian history for having promoted the Virgin Mary from the Mother of Jesus to the Mother of God! He also introduced the image of Isis into the Christian Church under the name of Mary. These "Black Virgins" may still be seen in the Cathedral of Moulins, in the Chapel of the Virgin at Loretto, in the Church of St. Stephen at Genoa and in the Church of St. Francis at Pisa.


http://plato2051.tripod.com/hypatia_of_alexandria.htm

You need to show a better cause and effect to reach your conclusion that just pointing to an Advent wreath and speaking of its ancient background, concluding that the Catholic Church is pagan.

Not really. To many thinking individuals this is enough.

:biglaugh

You don't know about me, do you...

I've heard them all before, and I am sure the gullible and already-convinced would enjoy this garbage. All they are is a re-hashing of a book written by Lorraine Boettner called "Roman Catholicism". Inaccurate portrayals of the Catholic Tradition as well as Strawman attacks. The book has been refuted piecemeal by those who are apologists. Even non-Catholic Christians see it as a poor attempt to refute Catholicism by using lies, strawman attacks and misleading statements.

Well since you didn't even read through all of the information it does not matter who you are does it? You don't even know what you are refuting.

I got bored, frankly. I've heard the dribble before... I realized that if I would have continued, I would have lost at least 5 IQ points...

Right.

I saw enough to see it is ludicrous garbage. It begins by trying to justify murdering innocent infants. Catholics and Muslims are alike because they have so many children... ?

You didn't see enough.

What is the message there??? Open your eyes!

My eyes are open wide.

The author has an issue with those who are against killing infants, Catholics and Muslims. One must wonder why YOU do not side with them, as well, and are in full agreement with the author's propaganda. When a tract begins by attacking those who believe in the dignity of man and in life, made in the image of God, you have to wonder which "spirit" was behind it...

The Spirit of Life or Death...

Oh, but that went right over your head in your joy of posting an anti-Catholic tract...

Actually it was just an expose' of the many like ways of the Catholicism and the Islam. I didn't recall seeing any acknowledgment to a pro abortion stance. You didn't either. But you are welcome to fancy that you did.

Baloney... you are totally in the dark of what "always represented satanic ideas"...

I am? I thought all pagan ideas were satanic.

In addition, don't be so quick to assume what God wants.

I don't assume that I know what the Bible instructs me to do and how I am instructed to worship. I do know what is expected of me.

I don't care about someone else's opinions that you merely post and mimic. I showed you Scriptural evidence that God INTENDS on the world having one religion - Christianity. God desires ALL men to know the truth, and we learn it from the teachings of the Apostles.

You are a sad lost individual.

Oh, you just ignore that, don't you, ronnie...

Your scripture means nothing to me. Once you get it right then we will talk about what you think about the scriptures.

Then, I ask for Scriptural citations that clearly show that the End Times will be marked by some "one religion" idea. NOT A WORD from ronnie...


All you provide is more dogma according to ronnie...

This is clear evidence that the intent of this discussion is not "End Times", but to attack Christians.

This has nothing to do with the end times... Just an opportunity to post anti-Catholic material under the guise of "End Times" discussion....

Re:13:11: And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Re:13:12: And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


For all the earth to worship then the earth has to be united into one worldwide religion. Something everyone can agree on. Something that lets us have our cake and eat it too. Something that says we can have both good and evil at the same time and live in peace. It's all in the name of proper human relations. You know?


Da:8:25: And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


1Th:5:3: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[ronniechoate34]

There is a true one world Christianity to come, they are called the Seven Lampsticks in Revelation 1:20. They are also known as Mount Zion. These seven congregations are the spirits of Yahwah, they range throughout the world. There are seven eyes upon that one stone.

I recognize that God has seven spirits.

 

[francisdesales]

Prayers to the saints, asking Mary for intervention, kissing the feet of idols, and a host of other things that are idolatrous and pagan are practiced by the Catholic church. There is one mediator between God and man and we ALL have instant and open access to Him and the Holy Ghost is available with the gifts of the Spirit to every man. to every man.

1. We don't pray TO the saints. Can't your spies get it right? :gah
2. You ask your friends for intervention by their prayers. But when I do it, that bothers you...??
3. We don't kiss idol's feet, since we have no idols.
4. There is one mediator between God and man, but that didn't stop Paul in the VERSE IMMEDIATELY PRECEEDING that we pray for others...

This would be a contradiction, if we viewed "mediator" the way YOU see it...

I glanced at the rest of this post, and frankly, I don't see the point in continuing. This is just an attack against Catholicism using childish arguments and historically false comments. Been there, done that. It is not worth the effort to argue over this, and it has nothing to do with "End TImes". I am well aware of the effort it takes to build up while you destroy using other people's work.

When you FINALLY get to interpreting Scriptures, it is done poorly. Interpretation built upon sand.

For example, "the whole world" to the WRITER, means the Mediterranean basin, not the entire planet Earth. This way of speaking is quite common. When Luke speaks of the Jews complaining about Paul "stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world", do we think for a second that Luke is speaking about the Jews in England or Russia? Or when Peter speaks of the "sufferings that the brotherhood undergo throughout the world", are we to take it that some of the Apostles traveled to America and were suffering here in the US??? :crazy

Nor is John speaking of the PLANET earth, but rather, the Roman Empire, which was largely united and powerful during the time of John. They, for all intents and purposes, WERE the "world". As usual, people falsely try to apply spiritual writings to a literal history today, when the writer was writing to Catholics of 100 AD... Any literalness applies only to 100 AD. Anything for today is in the spiritual realm.

I don't see a need to debate Catholicism here, especially when the ToS disallows me from doing so. I'm sure the Moderators will remember this... And I don't have the desire to argue incessantly with someone who already has their mind made up. Perhaps if you were legitimately asking questions, etc., I would consider the endeavor, but for you, it would be a waste of time... the Moderators know me...

You are a sad lost individual.

Ah, more name-calling... didn't learn anything from the first warning, did you...Another reason for the Moderators to put an end to this off topic discussion... Catholicism and Islam, the ties the bind. What lunacy.

 

[jasoncran]

 

[francisdesales]

:drool

 

[ronniechoate34]

1. We don't pray TO the saints. Can't your spies get it right? :gah

Why do you need extra prayers from the saints? Where in the Bible is this taught? We are told to come boldly before the throne. To do otherwise is to deny the faith.


Heb:4:9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb:4:10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb:4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb:4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb:4:13: Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb:4:14: Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb:4:15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb:4:16: Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2. You ask your friends for intervention by their prayers. But when I do it, that bothers you...??

I don't ask those who have departed from us for prayers. That's pointless. I will petition Jesus Christ for my needs because the Comforter is here. He hasn't gone anywhere.

3. We don't kiss idol's feet, since we have no idols.

Call it what you want to.


What About Bowing?


Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.



http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Cath ... tatues.asp


Main Entry: ven·er·a·tion
Pronunciation: \?ve-n?-?r?-sh?n\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century

1 : respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person
2 : the act of venerating
3 : the condition of one that is venerated


Main Entry: venerate
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: revere
Synonyms:
admire, adore, apotheosize, appreciate, be in awe of, cherish, deify, esteem, exalt, hallow, hold in awe, honor, idolize, look up to, love, put on a pedestal, regard, respect, reverence, think highly of, treasure, value, worship

4. There is one mediator between God and man, but that didn't stop Paul in the VERSE IMMEDIATELY PRECEEDING that we pray for others...

This would be a contradiction, if we viewed "mediator" the way YOU see it...

The way it is is this. We pray for the Holy Ghost to mediate in a persons life if we see them living in sin or sick, or in need some way. We pray for the Holy Ghost to intervene and we pray directly to Him because He is available to every man. We don't practice prayers to the deceased.

I glanced at the rest of this post, and frankly, I don't see the point in continuing. This is just an attack against Catholicism using childish arguments and historically false comments.

Well then it's up to you to prove those comments false. You have now called the man a liar so it's up to you to justify that before God. If I were you I would either repent or start digging. If the man is lying then I want to know it myself.

Been there, done that. It is not worth the effort to argue over this, and it has nothing to do with "End TImes". I am well aware of the effort it takes to build up while you destroy using other people's work.

Actually it does. I showed you with the scriptures how this is leading to a one world religion that in essence denies Jesus Christ and elevates the doctrine of Lucifer. The same lie that he told in the beginning is flying today. I don't care how "pc" we treat one another. We can not exist in harmony with both good and evil. It's not going to happen.

When you FINALLY get to interpreting Scriptures, it is done poorly. Interpretation built upon sand.

Being a Catholic you don't put much emphasis on the scriptures anyway. Do you?

For example, "the whole world" to the WRITER, means the Mediterranean basin, not the entire planet Earth. This way of speaking is quite common. When Luke speaks of the Jews complaining about Paul "stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world", do we think for a second that Luke is speaking about the Jews in England or Russia? Or when Peter speaks of the "sufferings that the brotherhood undergo throughout the world", are we to take it that some of the Apostles traveled to America and were suffering here in the US??? :crazy

Crazy. Okay, if you say so.

Nor is John speaking of the PLANET earth, but rather, the Roman Empire, which was largely united and powerful during the time of John. They, for all intents and purposes, WERE the "world". As usual, people falsely try to apply spiritual writings to a literal history today, when the writer was writing to Catholics of 100 AD... Any literalness applies only to 100 AD. Anything for today is in the spiritual realm.

Do you know what prophecy in similitude is?

I don't see a need to debate Catholicism here, especially when the ToS disallows me from doing so. I'm sure the Moderators will remember this... And I don't have the desire to argue incessantly with someone who already has their mind made up. Perhaps if you were legitimately asking questions, etc., I would consider the endeavor, but for you, it would be a waste of time... the Moderators know me...

Okay.

Ah, more name-calling... didn't learn anything from the first warning, did you...Another reason for the Moderators to put an end to this off topic discussion... Catholicism and Islam, the ties the bind. What lunacy.

Lunacy. Okay, I am not a lunatic.

 

[Caroline H]

Make a good case to sell your beliefs and we may just have a good discussion. But so far, I'm not seeing anything constructive.

There still seems to be nothing constructive concerning this thread. You have been asked to use your Bibles to support your beliefs, not use this thread as an excuse to make personal attacks or turn this into a Catholic-bashing thread. If this cannot be discussed Constructively then the thread will be closed.

 

[francisdesales]

Why do you need extra prayers from the saints? Where in the Bible is this taught?

You must be kidding. YOU posted an example of the verses from 1 Timothy... I even refered to it. Are you open to reading what I wrote, or do you already know everything about Catholicism..?

I don't ask those who have departed from us for prayers. That's pointless.

Only to those who believe death separates us from Christ. If a departed Christian died in Christ, please explain why he CANNOT intercede to Christ for us? God is a God of the Living, in the Words of Jesus Christ...

What About Bowing?

What about bowing. It is a sign of respect, it doesn't ALWAYS signify an acknowledgment and worship of God. I can bow before the Queen of England, but I don't consider her God...

We pray for the Holy Ghost to mediate in a persons life if we see them living in sin or sick, or in need some way. We pray for the Holy Ghost to intervene and we pray directly to Him because He is available to every man. We don't practice prayers to the deceased.

"WE" refers to a person such as yourself who does not believe that God has the power to animate those who have physically died. We Catholics trust that God really is the God of the Living, as Jesus said, while refering to LONG DEAD MEN... Thus, Moses and Elijah, present at the Transfiguration, long dead, were REALLY alive, made present. And they CONTINUE to be alive. We do not believe that Christ called them from the tomb for a few minutes and sent them back during the Transfiguration...

Nor does the Greek. The Greek says that the prophets were MADE VISIBLE, already present.

Well then it's up to you to prove those comments false.

I have no desire. I know they are false, I see no need to "prove" anything, as if I was trying to CONVINCE you. I know you'll believe whatever no matter what I say or disprove. I am well aware of this game. Send me off on a wild-goose chase, which always takes longer to disprove. No thanks.

Actually it does. I showed you with the scriptures how this is leading to a one world religion that in essence denies Jesus Christ and elevates the doctrine of Lucifer.

You have NOT proven ANYTHING from Scriptures regarding the end times. I already refuted your understanding of "one world religion". The rest is just your word, not the Bible's. This makes the whole rest of what you believe regarding End Times as null and void.

For example, "the whole world" to the WRITER, means the Mediterranean basin, not the entire planet Earth. This way of speaking is quite common. When Luke speaks of the Jews complaining about Paul "stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world", do we think for a second that Luke is speaking about the Jews in England or Russia? Or when Peter speaks of the "sufferings that the brotherhood undergo throughout the world", are we to take it that some of the Apostles traveled to America and were suffering here in the US??? :crazy

Crazy. Okay, if you say so.

I do. If you think John was writing to people of 2010 regarding the "End Times" on literal matters, that is your problem. I'm not falling for the Kool-Aid being offered.

Do you know what prophecy in similitude is?

Prophesy is proclaiming the word. "Future prophesy" is always general by nature, purposely made ambiguous. Those who try to figure out some "literal hidden" message can run around chasing their tales all day, but the Lord said that NO ONE will know when the End comes until it is here. Because the "prophesies" are so vague and ambiguous, any cult group can interpret whatever they want. They are not MEANT to be prophesies in the manner you think. It is just apocalyptic talk. Read the Jewish and Christian apocalyptic genre and you'll find the same stock formula words and story...

It is a STORY of God conquering evil, not a prediction of the end of the world... They use the same stock phrases and the plot and end are the same. God will prevail over evil...

This literary genre was quite popular from 100 BC to 150 or so AD. Their intent is not to "predict the future", but to show that despite the great evil present in the world (which people were privy to by experience), God would prevail, even if evil becomes greater and more powerful, God's grace will overcome at the end.

Lunacy. Okay, I am not a lunatic.

Didn't say YOU were, the topic is. More so because there is no connection provided that is worthwhile.
Both have large families? How lame... People of ALL religions in the US had large families 100 years ago... A perfect example of someone unfamiliar with the concept of cause and effect...

Thus, the entire post has nothing to do with "End of Times". But hey, a good opportunity to show anti-catholic propaganda as unworthy of consideration...

 

[ronniechoate34]

You must be kidding. YOU posted an example of the verses from 1 Timothy... I even refered to it. Are you open to reading what I wrote, or do you already know everything about Catholicism..?

No I am not kidding. You said it yourself. You believe in the power of the prayers of the dead saints. You ask them to intercede for you. That's what you said.

Only to those who believe death separates us from Christ. If a departed Christian died in Christ, please explain why he CANNOT intercede to Christ for us? God is a God of the Living, in the Words of Jesus Christ...

Yes, God is the God of the living. And since we are quickened by His Spirit and are no longer dead in sin then we are alive and able to approach Jesus Christ on our own. I am not saying that we should not pray for our brothers in Christ. I am not even saying that we shouldn't admit our faults to our righteous brothers for prayer. And that's all sound Biblical doctrine. But I can't find a thing in the Bible concerning the prayers of the departed, except for one mention and that's the spirits of the saints that were slain for their witness concerning the Word of God. They are praying for vengeance, and they will get it.

What about bowing. It is a sign of respect, it doesn't ALWAYS signify an acknowledgment and worship of God. I can bow before the Queen of England, but I don't consider her God...

Why do you respect an image made out of perishable goods that don't even belong to you? There is no life in a statue or a painting. Why in the world would you respect that garbage. The queen of heaven my hind end.

"WE" refers to a person such as yourself who does not believe that God has the power to animate those who have physically died.

I don't?

We Catholics trust that God really is the God of the Living, as Jesus said, while refering to LONG DEAD MEN...

Then why don't you just pray to Him and quit asking the dead for all of this stuff. You can just eliminate your prayers or requests or whatever it is you ask of the saints. Always petitioning them and praying to them to pray for you is a waste of time.

Thus, Moses and Elijah, present at the Transfiguration, long dead, were REALLY alive, made present. And they CONTINUE to be alive. We do not believe that Christ called them from the tomb for a few minutes and sent them back during the Transfiguration...
Nor does the Greek. The Greek says that the prophets were MADE VISIBLE, already present.

This is not the point. I do believe that the dead exist somewhere and are not totally annihilated from all knowing.

I have no desire. I know they are false, I see no need to "prove" anything, as if I was trying to CONVINCE you. I know you'll believe whatever no matter what I say or disprove. I am well aware of this game. Send me off on a wild-goose chase, which always takes longer to disprove. No thanks.

So there it is. Apathy, and not only you. I pray that Jesus Christ lights a fire in you and sends you looking for the truth.

You have NOT proven ANYTHING from Scriptures regarding the end times. I already refuted your understanding of "one world religion". The rest is just your word, not the Bible's. This makes the whole rest of what you believe regarding End Times as null and void.

Do you understand prophesy in similitude?

For example, "the whole world" to the WRITER, means the Mediterranean basin, not the entire planet Earth. This way of speaking is quite common. When Luke speaks of the Jews complaining about Paul "stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world", do we think for a second that Luke is speaking about the Jews in England or Russia? Or when Peter speaks of the "sufferings that the brotherhood undergo throughout the world", are we to take it that some of the Apostles traveled to America and were suffering here in the US??? :crazy

I do. If you think John was writing to people of 2010 regarding the "End Times" on literal matters, that is your problem. I'm not falling for the Kool-Aid being offered.

Are you saying that all things aren't possible with God? Also, aren't you attacking me personally by calling me crazy?

Prophesy is proclaiming the word. "Future prophesy" is always general by nature, purposely made ambiguous. Those who try to figure out some "literal hidden" message can run around chasing their tales all day, but the Lord said that NO ONE will know when the End comes until it is here. Because the "prophesies" are so vague and ambiguous, any cult group can interpret whatever they want. They are not MEANT to be prophesies in the manner you think. It is just apocalyptic talk. Read the Jewish and Christian apocalyptic genre and you'll find the same stock formula words and story...

So God is trying to confuse us and send us to hell by not revealing the truth to us? He has purposely confused the people and caused horrendous acts to be committed? This is what you believe? It sounds like you is calling light darkness to me.

It is a STORY of God conquering evil, not a prediction of the end of the world... They use the same stock phrases and the plot and end are the same. God will prevail over evil...

Oh, so now it's not even real prophecy according to you.

This literary genre was quite popular from 100 BC to 150 or so AD. Their intent is not to "predict the future", but to show that despite the great evil present in the world (which people were privy to by experience), God would prevail, even if evil becomes greater and more powerful, God's grace will overcome at the end.

Kind of like that old rascally Harry Potter and stuff huh? Sounds like you've abandoned the truth to me.

Didn't say YOU were, the topic is. More so because there is no connection provided that is worthwhile.
Both have large families? How lame... People of ALL religions in the US had large families 100 years ago... A perfect example of someone unfamiliar with the concept of cause and effect...

How about how they both revere Mary?

Thus, the entire post has nothing to do with "End of Times". But hey, a good opportunity to show anti-catholic propaganda as unworthy of consideration...

Of course you would say this, you don't believe there will be signs and prophets and wonders at all outside of the Catholic church.


What on earth are you looking for? What do you expect it to be like before Jesus destroys this place? Do you expect all men to be good at that time? In case you missed it He is coming to destroy the wicked. Now, Are we ripe or no?

 

[francisdesales]

You must be kidding. YOU posted an example of the verses from 1 Timothy... I even refered to it. Are you open to reading what I wrote, or do you already know everything about Catholicism..?

No I am not kidding. You said it yourself. You believe in the power of the prayers of the dead saints. You ask them to intercede for you. That's what you said.

I told you that you posted the pertinent verses from 1 Tim 3 on Jesus as the One Mediator. If Paul said WE shouldn't ask for the prayers of others (due to YOUR understanding of the One Mediator), then why did Paul ask for others to pray for leaders of the government as well as himself just a few verses before? Of course we can ask others to pray for us. Paul saw no problem with others going to Christ for his sake...

And we Catholics take Paul seriously that nothing can separate us from Christ, even death...

So now it is up to you to explain why I CANNOT ask the Virgin Mary for intercessionary prayers.

Yes, God is the God of the living. And since we are quickened by His Spirit and are no longer dead in sin then we are alive and able to approach Jesus Christ on our own. I am not saying that we should not pray for our brothers in Christ. I am not even saying that we shouldn't admit our faults to our righteous brothers for prayer. And that's all sound Biblical doctrine. But I can't find a thing in the Bible concerning the prayers of the departed, except for one mention and that's the spirits of the saints that were slain for their witness concerning the Word of God. They are praying for vengeance, and they will get it.

Those in Love, abiding in Christ in heaven, cannot HELP but desire what God desires - that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Please explain to me why the "cloud of witness" who are aware of what is happening here on earth would NOT desire to intercede for our sake? They did so for each other on earth, this is what Love is. This continues even to a higher degree in heaven. Thus, it follows that if the Christians in heaven are alert and aware of what is happening here, are in Christ and are righteous, declared so by God, then they DO pray for us...

Asking for the prayers of others is a good act in humility. And the prayers of a righteous person is efficacious indeed. Those entirely in Christ in heaven are indeed righteous.

There is no Scripture that prevents me from asking for the intecessions of saints in heaven and was a common Christian practice from the beginning. The doctrine is strongly implied in Scriptures and is not prevented by Scriptures. Thus, I will practice what I believe God allows. It strengthens my position within the family of Jesus.

Why do you respect an image made out of perishable goods that don't even belong to you? There is no life in a statue or a painting. Why in the world would you respect that garbage. The queen of heaven my hind end.

I don't respect the image itself, but the person it represents. The figure or painting gives me a visual aid to calling to mind the saint. This is an aid to prayer. Isn't it easier to "see" the person you are asking to intercede for you?

As to you hide end, if you desire continued respectful conversation, I ask you to control your temptations to make such comments. I was under the impression that you desire to learn, whether you agree or not, about my faith. If this is not the case, I am wasting my time here... Let me know...

"WE" refers to a person such as yourself who does not believe that God has the power to animate those who have physically died.

I don't?

Apparently not. You said there is no point in asking for the prayers of the dead righteous. Thus, you must think that Christians in heaven are indeed "dead" in Christ, since they cannot even love others anymore...

That is what being IN CHRIST is about. Loving others... don't they teach that where you "congregate"?

Then why don't you just pray to Him and quit asking the dead for all of this stuff. You can just eliminate your prayers or requests or whatever it is you ask of the saints. Always petitioning them and praying to them to pray for you is a waste of time.

Take it up with Paul, who in most of his writings, appeals TO the saints to pray for him. I am imitating Paul.

Thus, Moses and Elijah, present at the Transfiguration, long dead, were REALLY alive, made present. And they CONTINUE to be alive. We do not believe that Christ called them from the tomb for a few minutes and sent them back during the Transfiguration... Nor does the Greek. The Greek says that the prophets were MADE VISIBLE, already present.

This is not the point. I do believe that the dead exist somewhere and are not totally annihilated from all knowing.

It is the point, since I am making it.

If the dead are aware and alert of what is happening, they WILL INDEED pray for us, just as the rich man WANTED to in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke's Gospel... Jesus Himself has revealed to us that the dead WOULD pray for us.

You believe the dead are alert. Good. That is a start. Now, take this to its logical conclusion. WHAT would prevent the HOLY saints to continue living a life of love by wishing well for other Christians??

Are you saying that all things aren't possible with God? Also, aren't you attacking me personally by calling me crazy?

All things are possible with God, but the intent of the writer was not to give specific encoded messages to people of 2000 years later. That is the epitomy of misapplication and not understanding literary genre.

And AGAIN, you are confusing my calling the IDEA of literally applying Revelation to today as being crazy to you personally. YOU are NOT the "IDEA". You are merely mistaken and misled, taken in by false teaching. As a child of God (I presume), you are to be prayed for, not called names. The idea itself is crazy.

So God is trying to confuse us and send us to hell by not revealing the truth to us? He has purposely confused the people and caused horrendous acts to be committed? This is what you believe? It sounds like you is calling light darkness to me.

I am not confused, nor is God trying to confuse anyone. Only those who desperately desire to ignore Jesus' words and figure out the end of the world date end up confused...

The Book of Revelation has literal application to the people of THOSE times. The number of the beast, for example... The comments made in the first few chapters. The rest is apocalyptic genre, very common during those days (we see it in the Gospels, even). The point is that despite the very difficult times we live in, God will prevail. Even if they get worse! God will still prevail, and bring judgment upon the evil ones.

I don't waste my time tripping over myself trying to connect the meanings of the white horse to a real event in 2010...

As long as I remain in the Lord and confidently have trust and faith in Him, let the end come...

That is the attitude of those writing Scriptures. What does practically the last words of the Bible speak of??? COME LORD!

So if you want to run around trying to connect Islam and Catholicism to paganism, you have missed the entire point of the Book of Revelation.

It is a STORY of God conquering evil, not a prediction of the end of the world... They use the same stock phrases and the plot and end are the same. God will prevail over evil...

Oh, so now it's not even real prophecy according to you.

I meant it is not intended to be a detailed description of the end. The general idea, that things will get worse and that God will prevail, yes, that is real prophesy.

God can work through ANY sort of literay genre, fictional, myth, or apocalyptic genre, to give us His inerrant Word. Prophesy means to PROCLAIM THE WORD. God's Word is being proclaimed by ALL of these genres. Your issue is thinking that prophesy EXCLUSIVELY means to "predict the future". The only future being predicted is that God will prevail in the end... Nowhere does the Bible suggest that Revelation is a literal play by play of the end of Time in 2012 or whatever year your kin have selected...

Sounds like you've abandoned the truth to me.

Not at all. Have you ever had it??? Not on the End Times, at least...

... there is no connection provided that is worthwhile. Both have large families? How lame... People of ALL religions in the US had large families 100 years ago... A perfect example of someone unfamiliar with the concept of cause and effect...

How about how they both revere Mary?

I bolded the obvious inability of you to respond to my questioning the logic... This is your way to admit I am correct, I suppose.

All of the idle talk about me being afraid to confront the truth and read the entire post made by the author... I read enough of the faulty logic to determine that I would have become "dumber" by reading the rest of it. The logic of what I did read was ridiculous. I have pointed SOME of it out, and the best you can do is ignore it. Wonderful. Change the subject when you don't have an answer...

As to revering Mary, at least Islam is doing something OUR New Testament says WILL be done - "all generations shall call me blessed". FORTUNATELY for Catholics, faithful Muslims, and Protestants of good faith, Mary continues to be revered and WILL be revered, despite any Satanic desires to quash the WORD and DESIRE of God...

What is sad is that YOU do not honor Mary, when the Scriptures say we SHOULD honor her. You do the OPPOSITE with your comments about your "hind end"... I wonder what Jesus would say about such dishonor made by a "Christian" regarding His Most Holy Mother...

What on earth are you looking for? What do you expect it to be like before Jesus destroys this place? Do you expect all men to be good at that time? In case you missed it He is coming to destroy the wicked. Now, Are we ripe or no?

I am not concerned with the means that God will use to bring this world to an end. My goal is to REMAIN PREPARED, since the end will come like a thief in the night (isn't that pretty strong language that should lead you to believe that you will NOT figure out the End Times???)

ALL of creation yearns for the End, according to Paul. I have faith that a NEW CREATION will come forth, and so let it come.

You can be afraid, but I will say, with Scriptures,

"...Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

 

[ronniechoate34]

I told you that you posted the pertinent verses from 1 Tim 3 on Jesus as the One Mediator. If Paul said WE shouldn't ask for the prayers of others (due to YOUR understanding of the One Mediator), then why did Paul ask for others to pray for leaders of the government as well as himself just a few verses before? Of course we can ask others to pray for us. Paul saw no problem with others going to Christ for his sake...

Prayers from the living are fine. Nowhere but in paganism do I find men and women making requests to long dead spirits. Nowhere but in paganism is this a practice. It's not sound Biblical doctrine, I can't find any support for it.

And we Catholics take Paul seriously that nothing can separate us from Christ, even death...

Actually I agree. But we don't need the prayers of the dead

So now it is up to you to explain why I CANNOT ask the Virgin Mary for intercessionary prayers.

I don't say that you can't pray to Mary, who, is no virgin, and in fact those days are long gone. I say that you shouldn't pray to Mary because it's spiritually dangerous and idolatrous. It's pure deception.

Those in Love, abiding in Christ in heaven, cannot HELP but desire what God desires - that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Please explain to me why the "cloud of witness" who are aware of what is happening here on earth would NOT desire to intercede for our sake?

They do desire to intercede I am sure. They also are awaiting orders from the Almighty Lord Jesus Christ who knows all things. Including the prayers of His people no matter where they are. I am sure that the saints in heaven would love to see God's people come boldly before the throne in faith and make petition to God for salvation and healing rather than listening to their prayers to saints that may OR MAY NOT have ever existed.

They did so for each other on earth, this is what Love is.

Love is many things.

This continues even to a higher degree in heaven.

Says who?

Thus, it follows that if the Christians in heaven are alert and aware of what is happening here, are in Christ and are righteous, declared so by God, then they DO pray for us...

The only praying I read that goes on in heaven is for recompense. Am I missing some scriptures?

Asking for the prayers of others is a good act in humility. And the prayers of a righteous person is efficacious indeed. Those entirely in Christ in heaven are indeed righteous.

Don't you know any righteous people who will pray for you. If not then maybe you should think about changing the people you surround yourself with.

There is no Scripture that prevents me from asking for the intecessions of saints in heaven and was a common Christian practice from the beginning.

I doubt it. It has ties to paganism and this can be proven. Can you prove to me that it's fine by the scriptures? I've never seen it.

The doctrine is strongly implied in Scriptures and is not prevented by Scriptures. Thus, I will practice what I believe God allows. It strengthens my position within the family of Jesus.

OHHH the implications! So tell me where it's given the full seal of approval by Jesus Christ.

I don't respect the image itself, but the person it represents. The figure or painting gives me a visual aid to calling to mind the saint.

This is a dangerous practice. It's called idolatry and God strictly forbids it. That's apparent by the ten commandments. God tells us these things to save us from falling victim to spiritual deceptions. It's a seriously dangerous thing that you are practicing, you can easily get carried away by a seductive spirit.

This is an aid to prayer. Isn't it easier to "see" the person you are asking to intercede for you?

I thought that you didn't pray to the saints.

As to you hide end, if you desire continued respectful conversation, I ask you to control your temptations to make such comments. I was under the impression that you desire to learn, whether you agree or not, about my faith. If this is not the case, I am wasting my time here... Let me know...

Please forgive me for that. I didn't mean to offend you.

Apparently not. You said there is no point in asking for the prayers of the dead righteous. Thus, you must think that Christians in heaven are indeed "dead" in Christ, since they cannot even love others anymore...

I did never say that.

That is what being IN CHRIST is about. Loving others... don't they teach that where you "congregate"?

I know what it means to love others as I love myself.

Take it up with Paul, who in most of his writings, appeals TO the saints to pray for him. I am imitating Paul.

These were living people. You want to nit pick about what the "world" means to the Apostles but think about this. Paul was asking for his living brothers prayers. we are to have brothers in Jesus Christ today to ask for intercession, not be praying to the departed.

If the dead are aware and alert of what is happening, they WILL INDEED pray for us, just as the rich man WANTED to in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke's Gospel... Jesus Himself has revealed to us that the dead WOULD pray for us.

Show me the scriptures please.

You believe the dead are alert. Good. That is a start. Now, take this to its logical conclusion. WHAT would prevent the HOLY saints to continue living a life of love by wishing well for other Christians??

First of all these saints are not all necessarily saints, or even people that truly existed. Secondly this is not sound Biblical doctrine.

All things are possible with God, but the intent of the writer was not to give specific encoded messages to people of 2000 years later. That is the epitomy of misapplication and not understanding literary genre.

Prophecy in similitude. Look into it. Also the Book of Revelation is not simply a piece of literature.

And AGAIN, you are confusing my calling the IDEA of literally applying Revelation to today as being crazy to you personally. YOU are NOT the "IDEA". You are merely mistaken and misled, taken in by false teaching. As a child of God (I presume), you are to be prayed for, not called names. The idea itself is crazy.

Prophecy in similitude is a false teaching?

I am not confused, nor is God trying to confuse anyone. Only those who desperately desire to ignore Jesus' words and figure out the end of the world date end up confused...

I have no idea what the date will be. I ain't trying to figger' it out either. That would be a foolish thing to do.

The Book of Revelation has literal application to the people of THOSE times. The number of the beast, for example... The comments made in the first few chapters. The rest is apocalyptic genre, very common during those days (we see it in the Gospels, even). The point is that despite the very difficult times we live in, God will prevail. Even if they get worse! God will still prevail, and bring judgment upon the evil ones.

Still believing those fables huh? How about similitude, do you believe in that?

I don't waste my time tripping over myself trying to connect the meanings of the white horse to a real event in 2010...

That's the problem. People do not apply the word of God to their lives today. The Bible is more current than tomorrow's newspaper.

As long as I remain in the Lord and confidently have trust and faith in Him, let the end come...

That is the attitude of those writing Scriptures. What does practically the last words of the Bible speak of??? COME LORD!

So if you want to run around trying to connect Islam and Catholicism to paganism, you have missed the entire point of the Book of Revelation.

The evidence suggests otherwise. Like I said, the Bible is applicable to us today. Similitude, that's what you are looking for in history and in prophecy.

I meant it is not intended to be a detailed description of the end.

No, it's prophecy that's been signified, revealed by signs, the Book of Revelation says so itself.

The general idea, that things will get worse and that God will prevail, yes, that is real prophesy.

God can work through ANY sort of literay genre, fictional, myth, or apocalyptic genre, to give us His inerrant Word.

God does not work in fiction. Remember, God cannot tell a lie.

Prophesy means to PROCLAIM THE WORD. God's Word is being proclaimed by ALL of these genres.

No it's not. That's just satan appearing to you as an angel of light.

Your issue is thinking that prophesy EXCLUSIVELY means to "predict the future". The only future being predicted is that God will prevail in the end... Nowhere does the Bible suggest that Revelation is a literal play by play of the end of Time in 2012 or whatever year your kin have selected...

My kin? 2012? Are you trying to insult me?

Not at all. Have you ever had it??? Not on the End Times, at least...

Sure I have had it. I've still got it.

I bolded the obvious inability of you to respond to my questioning the logic... This is your way to admit I am correct, I suppose.

I guess.

All of the idle talk about me being afraid to confront the truth and read the entire post made by the author... I read enough of the faulty logic to determine that I would have become "dumber" by reading the rest of it. The logic of what I did read was ridiculous. I have pointed SOME of it out, and the best you can do is ignore it. Wonderful. Change the subject when you don't have an answer...

Are you a comedian?

As to revering Mary, at least Islam is doing something OUR New Testament says WILL be done - "all generations shall call me blessed".

Mary was indeed blessed. What an honor for her.

FORTUNATELY for Catholics, faithful Muslims, and Protestants of good faith, Mary continues to be revered and WILL be revered, despite any Satanic desires to quash the WORD and DESIRE of God...

What these faiths have done with Mary is nothing short of heresy. The Bible does not support any of this pagan activity. In fact the Bible is quite contrary to the elevation of any spirit other than the Holy Spirit. The commandments are clear also concerning the forging of idols and images. And clearly praying to the deceased had its beginning in paganism.

What is sad is that YOU do not honor Mary, when the Scriptures say we SHOULD honor her. You do the OPPOSITE with your comments about your "hind end"... I wonder what Jesus would say about such dishonor made by a "Christian" regarding His Most Holy Mother...

I am going to do this. I am going to show you once and for all who Jesus' mother is, and it's not the queen of heaven, or the mother of God, or even Mary herself.


Lu:8:21: And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

I am not concerned with the means that God will use to bring this world to an end.

You should know without consideration that it will be burned.

My goal is to REMAIN PREPARED, since the end will come like a thief in the night (isn't that pretty strong language that should lead you to believe that you will NOT figure out the End Times???)

Not the day to be sure. Don't you understand the parable of the fig tree? If you don't then I would worry if I were you. Consider the reason Jesus Christ spoke in parables and you'll know why.

ALL of creation yearns for the End, according to Paul. I have faith that a NEW CREATION will come forth, and so let it come.

You can be afraid, but I will say, with Scriptures,

"...Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

Who say's I am afraid?

 

[francisdesales]

After reading your most recent post and thinking about how to address it ,I have decided to respond in two posts...

The first will completely demolish the thread's OP, as well as the post from the article that according to you, is "a solid argument. You can't even touch it." We will soon see how solid it is and how much I will touch it and knock it over... There will be no need to reply, because when I am done, there will be nothing left to respond to...

The second post will be on intercessionary prayers made to appeal to the dead saints. It appears you have the belief from Scriptures to take the final step, we just need to put the total argument together and remove what is holding you back...


---------
OK, first, the "pagan" connection between Catholicism and Islam and your article.

First, I think it is beyond doubt that the article has little merit on its own arguments. We undoubtedly agree that having large families points to some insipid connection between Catholics and Muslims and paganism is FALSE. Fifty years ago, numerous American families were large, over 5 children, due to a number of totally unrelated (to religion) reasons. Thus, the entire argument is null and void. When we read such a terrible argument to begin with, and we are seekers of truth, we don't waste anymore time infecting our minds with MORE poorly conceived connections that do not exist. Yes, I said "INFECT". Reading such stuff slowly turns our mind from the truth.

Now, the connection with paganism itself. Citing similarities between Catholicism and paganism does not prove ANY connection whatsoever. Making note that Catholics do "x" and pagans do "x" does not present an actual connection BY ITSELF. One must show that Catholics did "x" BECAUSE pagans did "x". I have yet to see one single instance of an example of this in all my years of doing apologetic work.

Let's look at some simple examples, then move to something more interesting...

I breathe air, I eat food.
Pagans breathe air, pagans eat food.

I have sexual relations with my wife, which have on one occasion resulted in a child.
Pagans have sexual relations with their wives, and sometimes, children are the result.
I will die.
Pagans will die.

Do I do ANY of these BECAUSE pagans do them? Of course not.

As you can see by this primer, there is absolutely no corrolation based upon the mere fact that we, pagans and I, do the same thing... THIS is what we are being led to believe by ronnie. It is incredibly faulty logic.

Now to make things interesting and completely knock over the thread's OP.

If I was to USE this logic without serious research or thought, I could conclude that the BIBLE ITSELF is to be rejected as pagan!!! I am not condoning that the Word of God is pagan, but for illustration (taking the thesis to its logical conclusion), let's see what happens when I apply this to the Bible - as if I were an atheist, for example...

Raising hands in worship. In the bible, and a pagan practice, as are the rest:
Taking off shoes on holy ground...
A holy mountain...
A holy place in a temple...
offering sacrifices without blemish...
a sacred ark...
a city of refuge...
laws written on stone...
fire appearing above a person's head...
horses on fire...
the offering of tithes...
the offering of first fruits...
bringing water from a rock

Remain unconvinced? I could do the same thing with Jesus Christ Himself...

The Woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand... So did the Lord.
Pagan Kings sat on thrones and wore crowns... So did the Lord.
Pagans worship the Sun...The Lord is the "sun of righteousness".
Pagan gods are likened to the stars... The Lord is called "the bright morning star".
Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them... The Lord has a temple
Pagn gods are pictured with wings...The Lord is pictured with wings

{Excepts taken from Ralph Woodrow article (yes, the same guy who wrote "Babylon Mystery Religion" in the mold of Mr. Hislop and later rejected his own work) "Did the Catholic Church have its origin in paganism", This Rock, May/June 2005.}

No true Christian would follow this line of argument and connect paganism to the Bible or to our Lord. But those who follow in the footsteps of Mr. Hislop, such as ronnie, attempt to use this logic to conclude that Catholicism is pagan, based on the exact same information. Pagans do "x", Catholics do "x", hence, Catholics must be pagan. This logic is terrible.

What is ironic, again, is that Mr Woodrow saw the fallacy of the argument he made in his own book, and Mr. Hislop's "infamous" book, "The Two Bablyons". He HIMSELF refutes the arguments made in Hislop's and his own "popular" books.

Simply put, you cannot make connections between two groups based on both groups are doing them. Practices often develop independently of each other, and there may be absolutely no correlation whatsoever.

Just because I breathe air and pagans breathe air doesn't make me pagan, NOR does the article's attempt to correlate Catholicim with paganism prove a single thing. It is based upon poor logic that is quite easily refuted - despite the suggestion that I "cannot touch it"...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Ok, this will be part two and a continuation on the discussion of asking physically dead saints to pray for us.

You already have the foundation in place, ronnie. You believe that a righteous man's prayers are effective. You believe that it is Christian, indeed, to pray for others, whether they are Christian or not. You believe that those who have died remain alive in Christ. You believe that those who have died are somehow cognizant of what is happening here on earth. And finally, you believe that those dead are ABLE to pray for us.

ALL of this is found in the Bible, Ronnie, which is why you believe all of these things.

Now, let's put them all together and reach our conclusion...

Those who have died and are with Christ CAN and DO pray for us. Thus, asking for their intercessions is NOT pointless. There is no Scriptural reason to deny what common sense and logic leads us to conclude.

Ronnie, this is the logical conclusion taken from Sacred Scriptures themselves. Unless you can find a Biblical warrant that PREVENTS such action, the conclusion is sound. The arguments that develop and lead to the conclusion are all found in the Scriptures. Thus, it is totally Scriptural to conclude the obvious: Those of the cloud of witnesses desire what God does, that we be saved. They continue to love by praying for us.

Now, for the arguments against the practice that you provide - which really are not very good arguments, the bible itself refutes most of them...

But we don't need the prayers of the dead

Then why does Paul need to ask for the prayers of other Christians? Why can't he just go to Jesus, as you state??? Is that what he does? No, he doesn't JUST go to Jesus. The Church, by nature, is a community of believers, the Body of Christ, PUT TOGETHER FOR THE POINT of bringing men and women to Jesus Christ. This was ordained before the beginning of the world...

I say that you shouldn't pray to Mary because it's spiritually dangerous and idolatrous. It's pure deception.

The technical term is "asking for Mary to pray for us". We only pray to God, as the source of all graces. When we ask for the prayers of another human, whether Mary or a saint on earth, there is no idolatry or deception. Worshiping God alone is not idolatry, and asking for others to pray to God for our sake is not idolatry - as the Bible points out.

I am sure that the saints in heaven would love to see God's people come boldly before the throne in faith and make petition to God for salvation and healing rather than listening to their prayers to saints that may OR MAY NOT have ever existed.

This seems again to state that it was pointless for Paul to ask for other Christians to pray for HIM...

Paul did not pointlessly or needlessly ask for others to pray for him. He truly believed that such prayer was of use to him, just as his OWN sufferings completed what was missing in the Body of Christ (Col 1:23). Nothing we do in Christ is "pointless".

The only praying I read that goes on in heaven is for recompense. Am I missing some scriptures?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The Bible never makes the attempt to tell us exhaustively WHAT the saints are doing... IF the Bible said something to the effect of "here is what the saints in heaven do, nothing more..."1. Worship God. 2. Worship God some more. 3. Visit with other dead saints."... THEN you could make your point. This is an "exhaustive" list that is all-inclusive. However, the Bible doesn't make the effort to tell us COMPLETELY what is done in heaven.

Thus, we cannot ascertain what the saints DO NOT do from the Sacred Scriptures. But IF the Bible TELLS us that the saints are alive, aware, and willing to pray for us while in heaven, it seems ridiculous to deny that they DO ask God for graces for others, JUST as they did on earth. This is a continuation of love, a Love with which they are now FULLY UNITED with. As such, they will even display MORE love than while on earth. Their prayers are even MORE powerful while they are in heaven...

Can you prove to me that it's fine by the scriptures? I've never seen it.

I have given you all the arguments that would lead one to conclude that it is a worthy practice. Not only me, but the first Christians thought the same thing. We have archeological evidence, as well as literary evidence that the first Christians did EXACTLY that. They were not bound by a false doctrine called "sola scriptura", which is your final and largest hurdle to coming to the truth of God on the subject.

So tell me where it's given the full seal of approval by Jesus Christ.

Matthew 16:19.

If the dead are aware and alert of what is happening, they WILL INDEED pray for us, just as the rich man WANTED to in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke's Gospel... Jesus Himself has revealed to us that the dead WOULD pray for us.

Show me the scriptures please.

There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:19-31

It is quite evident that the dead man interceded for the sake of the living in this passage...

To conclude, you have all the Biblical arguments that support intercessionary prayers from the dead before you. What is holding you back is your own paradigm and sola scriptura, a doctrine that is self-defeating (IT is not even found in the Scriptures, so the logic behind it is non-existent). Once you free yourself from the non-Biblical restriction (one that the early Christians did not have), you will come to see the benefit and worthiness of prayers from the dead saints offered to God for my sake...

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

After reading your most recent post and thinking about how to address it ,I have decided to respond in two posts...

The first will completely demolish the thread's OP, as well as the post from the article that according to you, is "a solid argument. You can't even touch it." We will soon see how solid it is and how much I will touch it and knock it over... There will be no need to reply, because when I am done, there will be nothing left to respond to...

The second post will be on intercessionary prayers made to appeal to the dead saints. It appears you have the belief from Scriptures to take the final step, we just need to put the total argument together and remove what is holding you back...


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OK, first, the "pagan" connection between Catholicism and Islam and your article.

First, I think it is beyond doubt that the article has little merit on its own
arguments.

There are many many articles concerning this. Would you like to investigate some more?

We undoubtedly agree that having large families points to some insipid connection between Catholics and Muslims and paganism is FALSE.

Actually it's simply a shared belief between the Islamists and the Catholics. Nothing false about it. Both religions view life as sacred and have large families.

Fifty years ago, numerous American families were large, over 5 children, due to a number of totally unrelated (to religion) reasons.

My Mother and my Father in law both came from large families. Neither are Catholic or Islamists.

Thus, the entire argument is null and void.

Who is arguing besides you?

When we read such a terrible argument to begin with, and we are seekers of truth, we don't waste anymore time infecting our minds with MORE poorly conceived connections that do not exist. Yes, I said "INFECT". Reading such stuff slowly turns our mind from the truth.

How do you know it's not the truth? Have you studied Islam and its beliefs?

Now, the connection with paganism itself. Citing similarities between Catholicism and paganism does not prove ANY connection whatsoever.

But since paganism existed first then there would have to be some connection. Even if it's just stealing the practices of worship that the pagan practices and intermingling them with Christianity. There must be a connection otherwise the whole thing would make no sense.

Making note that Catholics do "x" and pagans do "x" does not present an actual connection BY ITSELF.

How does it not?

One must show that Catholics did "x" BECAUSE pagans did "x".

Well were back to which came first then are we not?

I have yet to see one single instance of an example of this in all my years of doing apologetic work.

Maybe you've overlooked something.

Let's look at some simple examples, then move to something more interesting...

I breathe air, I eat food.
Pagans breathe air, pagans eat food.

I have sexual relations with my wife, which have on one occasion resulted in a child.
Pagans have sexual relations with their wives, and sometimes, children are the result.
I will die.
Pagans will die.

Do I do ANY of these BECAUSE pagans do them? Of course not.

Paganism is not life, it is a way of worship. Those are all pretty moot points in that light aren't they?

As you can see by this primer, there is absolutely no corrolation based upon the mere fact that we, pagans and I, do the same thing... THIS is what we are being led to believe by ronnie. It is incredibly faulty logic.

It's in the way that you worship. That's what you are neglecting to see.

Now to make things interesting and completely knock over the thread's OP.

If I was to USE this logic without serious research or thought, I could conclude that the BIBLE ITSELF is to be rejected as pagan!!!

Not really. Espescially since the Bible condemns pagan practices.

I am not condoning that the Word of God is pagan, but for illustration (taking the thesis to its logical conclusion), let's see what happens when I apply this to the Bible - as if I were an atheist, for example...

Raising hands in worship. In the bible, and a pagan practice, as are the rest:
Taking off shoes on holy ground...
A holy mountain...
A holy place in a temple...
offering sacrifices without blemish...
a sacred ark...
a city of refuge...
laws written on stone...
fire appearing above a person's head...
horses on fire...
the offering of tithes...
the offering of first fruits...
bringing water from a rock

Remain unconvinced? I could do the same thing with Jesus Christ Himself...

The Woman called Mystery Babylon had a cup in her hand... So did the Lord.
Pagan Kings sat on thrones and wore crowns... So did the Lord.
Pagans worship the Sun...The Lord is the "sun of righteousness".
Pagan gods are likened to the stars... The Lord is called "the bright morning star".
Pagan gods had temples dedicated to them... The Lord has a temple
Pagn gods are pictured with wings...The Lord is pictured with wings

Keep stretching it. I am not convinced yet.

{Excepts taken from Ralph Woodrow article (yes, the same guy who wrote "Babylon Mystery Religion" in the mold of Mr. Hislop and later rejected his own work) "Did the Catholic Church have its origin in paganism", This Rock, May/June 2005.}

No true Christian would follow this line of argument and connect paganism to the Bible or to our Lord.


No, they don't connect it to the Bible or the Lord Jesus Christ. Paganism is connected to the devil, he has simply associated the two himself. It's plain to see.


But those who follow in the footsteps of Mr. Hislop, such as ronnie, attempt to use this logic to conclude that Catholicism is pagan, based on the exact same information. Pagans do "x", Catholics do "x", hence, Catholics must be pagan. This logic is terrible.

Catholic worship includes practices that are forbidden and pagan no matter what the Douay bible claims the ten commandments to be.

What is ironic, again, is that Mr Woodrow saw the fallacy of the argument he made in his own book, and Mr. Hislop's "infamous" book, "The Two Bablyons". He HIMSELF refutes the arguments made in Hislop's and his own "popular" books.

Simply put, you cannot make connections between two groups based on both groups are doing them. Practices often develop independently of each other, and there may be absolutely no correlation whatsoever.

There HAS TO BE.

Just because I breathe air and pagans breathe air doesn't make me pagan, NOR does the article's attempt to correlate Catholicim with paganism prove a single thing. It is based upon poor logic that is quite easily refuted - despite the suggestion that I "cannot touch it"...

[/quote]


You proved nothing to me. Those were some mighty weak arguments that you presented.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Ok, this will be part two and a continuation on the discussion of asking physically dead saints to pray for us.

You already have the foundation in place, ronnie. You believe that a righteous man's prayers are effective. You believe that it is Christian, indeed, to pray for others, whether they are Christian or not. You believe that those who have died remain alive in Christ. You believe that those who have died are somehow cognizant of what is happening here on earth. And finally, you believe that those dead are ABLE to pray for us.

ALL of this is found in the Bible, Ronnie, which is why you believe all of these things.

Now, let's put them all together and reach our conclusion...

Those who have died and are with Christ CAN and DO pray for us.



Thus, asking for their intercessions is NOT pointless. There is no Scriptural reason to deny what common sense and logic leads us to conclude.

Common sense and logic? I follow the Spirit, sometimes things aren't so cut and dried.

Ronnie, this is the logical conclusion taken from Sacred Scriptures themselves. Unless you can find a Biblical warrant that PREVENTS such action, the conclusion is sound.

God forbids mingling worship practices. Can you find scriptures that state otherwise?

The arguments that develop and lead to the conclusion are all found in the Scriptures. Thus, it is totally Scriptural to conclude the obvious: Those of the cloud of witnesses desire what God does, that we be saved. They continue to love by praying for us.

From what I understand these witmesses give glory to God who knows all things. I read that there are some in heaven who are praying for vengeance, but that's it. Perhaps you can show me scripture to the contrary.

Now, for the arguments against the practice that you provide - which really are not very good arguments, the bible itself refutes most of them...

Then why does Paul need to ask for the prayers of other Christians? Why can't he just go to Jesus, as you state???

Again, these are living people that he goes to. I find no scriptures that say any apostle made a request from a spirit other than the Holy Spirit.

Is that what he does? No, he doesn't JUST go to Jesus. The Church, by nature, is a community of believers, the Body of Christ, PUT TOGETHER FOR THE POINT of bringing men and women to Jesus Christ. This was ordained before the beginning of the world...

No, but he does not ask the departed for anything either. There are no scriptures to back that up.

The technical term is "asking for Mary to pray for us".

Ever heard that a request is a prayer. Boy I sure have, and I can prove it too.

We only pray to God, as the source of all graces. When we ask for the prayers of another human, whether Mary or a saint on earth, there is no idolatry or deception.

There is when you ask the departed spirits for things. It's always been pagan.

Worshiping God alone is not idolatry, and asking for others to pray to God for our sake is not idolatry - as the Bible points out.

It is though, as history points out.


You venerate statues. That's what a catholic web site said. Remember? Remember how we proved that venerate is another way of sayng worship? That's idolatry.

This seems again to state that it was pointless for Paul to ask for other Christians to pray for HIM...

I am not ashamed.

Paul did not pointlessly or needlessly ask for others to pray for him. He truly believed that such prayer was of use to him, just as his OWN sufferings completed what was missing in the Body of Christ (Col 1:23). Nothing we do in Christ is "pointless".

Again. Paul did not pray to the dead and he in no way advocating that in his writings.

The only praying I read that goes on in heaven is for recompense. Am I missing some scriptures?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The Bible never makes the attempt to tell us exhaustively WHAT the saints are doing... IF the Bible said something to the effect of "here is what the saints in heaven do, nothing more..."1. Worship God. 2. Worship God some more. 3. Visit with other dead saints."... THEN you could make your point. This is an "exhaustive" list that is all-inclusive. However, the Bible doesn't make the effort to tell us COMPLETELY what is done in heaven.

Then why are you making assumptions. That makes an ass out of you and me. But only if I assume the same thing, and I don't.

Thus, we cannot ascertain what the saints DO NOT do from the Sacred Scriptures.

Nor can we ascertain what they do except from the Holy Scripture.

But IF the Bible TELLS us that the saints are alive, aware, and willing to pray for us while in heaven,

But it does not tell us that. It tells us there are souls in heaven that demand justice, not intercession for the wrong doers that destroyed them.

it seems ridiculous to deny that they DO ask God for graces for others,

It seems ridiculous to practice pagan worship and call it Christian. It also seems ridiculous to pray to the departed when Jesus Christ is available to every man.

JUST as they did on earth. This is a continuation of love, a Love with which they are now FULLY UNITED with. As such, they will even display MORE love than while on earth. Their prayers are even MORE powerful while they are in heaven...


I have given you all the arguments that would lead one to conclude that it is a worthy practice.

No you haven't. You just believe you have.

Not only me, but the first Christians thought the same thing.

If you say so, I doubt it though. I can show you how pagans believe in this stuff, but not Christians.

We have archeological evidence, as well as literary evidence that the first Christians did EXACTLY that.

Ancient means ancient, it does not mean truth or light or better or any of that. It just means old. Paganism is old too but that does not make it the truth.

They were not bound by a false doctrine called "sola scriptura", which is your final and largest hurdle to coming to the truth of God on the subject.

What's that?

Matthew 16:19.

There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:19-31

It is quite evident that the dead man interceded for the sake of the living in this passage...

The man did nothing. His requests were turned away.

To conclude, you have all the Biblical arguments that support intercessionary prayers from the dead before you.

No I don't. I truly don't

What is holding you back is your own paradigm and sola scriptura,

What's sola scriptura?

a doctrine that is self-defeating (IT is not even found in the Scriptures, so the logic behind it is non-existent).

Well see about that.

Once you free yourself from the non-Biblical restriction (one that the early Christians did not have), you will come to see the benefit and worthiness of prayers from the dead saints offered to God for my sake...

I don't think so. You still have alot of issues to deal with before breaking me down to that level.

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry folks, I've got to put this thread to rest. It relies too heavily on subject matter no related to end times. It's turning into nothing but a RC apologetic topic.