Causing your brother to stumble

[stovebolts]

Sometime I have an issue with this.. it's not always easy to be the stronger brother because sometimes it feels like being the stronger brother actually can restrict how you express your thanks to God. Now then, I'm not saying I'm not the weaker brother in some cases, but I find myself not able to do some of the things I want to do in fear of causing my brother some sort of strife, thus causing him to stumble, because he may feel different about how he views a particular subject than I do.

So I need to ask, where do you draw the line? When do you say to your weaker brother, "Wake up and mature!"

Can anyone relate?

 

[Vic C.]

Telling someone to wake up isn't a cause to stumble; quite the opposite, IMO. If for some reason they go in the opposite direction, at least you attempted to nudge them in the proper direction. Jesus pushed the religious leaders of His time very hard and they still stumbled. Was it His fault or was it their stubborn, stiff-necked ways?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Jeff:

Being strong and mature in the Lord is in no way going to make one of your brothers stumble. It becomes an example by which they can follow.

I have given some thought to which you refer, and I am reminded of Jesus when he walked with his disciples. Did he not tell Peter that he would deny him ? When he went out to pray, he told his disciple to stay awake and watch while he prayed, and he came back from prayer and found them asleep.

Causing a brother to stumble is when you put something in your brothers way in which he can stumble. Being strong in the Lord is a much greater example, than a downfall for your brother. People are going to stumble on their own for the most part.

So continue to be strong in the Lord, so that others may grow by.

 

[stovebolts]

While I understand what both of you are saying, where I struggle is the concept of Romans 14, where some will view a particular doctrine in such a way that isn't bad, but may not be for everyone. In other words, if somebody does not eat meat in honor of our Lord, then if I eat meat in view of them, it would cause them to stumble not because eating meat is wrong, but neither is not eating meat for each does it unto the Lord, and each is convinced in their own mind.

We had an instance a few years ago at VBS where we wanted to do some christian karaoke in our fellowship hall with the kids, and some had an issue with it because of the "musical instruments". And it wasn't that it was "worship", but more of a perceived tradition. Think on the lines of a Christian going into a tavern, even for all the right reasons. It could be 'percieved' the wrong way. Know I don't like this line of thought, but it does exist.

Now then, I am very outspoken (imagine that :D ) and I challenged it because I wanted to understand the issue, and had I pushed the issue further than I did, I'm sure we would have had our Karaoke. However, for those less versed in our congregation, it would have caused them to stumble. So, with my point made and my view on musical instruments clear, I backed down.

Net Bible Romans 14:22 The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves.

I know this sounds silly to some, and don't want to make this an issue of karaoke because that's not the issue and over all, I think this issue was very fruitful in dialog, but sometimes it gets tiresome and I'm reminded of how a wife is to submit to her husband, and I've heard handy and lovely talk about how they submit to their husbands even when they are in disagreement, and it made me think of how we sometimes need to submit to our brothers and sisters in Christ sometimes... and it's not always easy.

 

[Mike]

Maybe this ties in with what you're talking about. My wife and I have been involved in a number of different small in-home Bible study groups. They've varied in their make up of people. Sometimes the group has been a real drag on me, personally. While it's great to be the one who helps, sometimes I need to be fed too. In these cases, I've felt clearly that I was the more "mature" Christian. This sounds very pompous of me to say, but I was always the one answering, never asking, questions. When I did ask a question, it was more of a rhetorical question that I ended up answering myself. We hung with them as long as we could before we finally decided that we weren't being fed. I'm somewhat ashamed to say we abandoned ship and found a new group with more of a mix where I wasn't "the one".

I can take criticism. Was I causing my brothers and sisters to stumble by moving on because I felt the need to be personally fed?

Likely in most groups there is a person people look to as the unofficial leader, even if they aren't the official one. If everyone in that position felt like I felt and did what I did, there would be many people feeling abandoned.

 

[Mysteryman]

While I understand what both of you are saying, where I struggle is the concept of Romans 14, where some will view a particular doctrine in such a way that isn't bad, but may not be for everyone. In other words, if somebody does not eat meat in honor of our Lord, then if I eat meat in view of them, it would cause them to stumble not because eating meat is wrong, but neither is not eating meat for each does it unto the Lord, and each is convinced in their own mind.

We had an instance a few years ago at VBS where we wanted to do some christian karaoke in our fellowship hall with the kids, and some had an issue with it because of the "musical instruments". And it wasn't that it was "worship", but more of a perceived tradition. Think on the lines of a Christian going into a tavern, even for all the right reasons. It could be 'percieved' the wrong way. Know I don't like this line of thought, but it does exist.

Now then, I am very outspoken (imagine that :D ) and I challenged it because I wanted to understand the issue, and had I pushed the issue further than I did, I'm sure we would have had our Karaoke. However, for those less versed in our congregation, it would have caused them to stumble. So, with my point made and my view on musical instruments clear, I backed down.

Net Bible Romans 14:22 The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves.

I know this sounds silly to some, and don't want to make this an issue of karaoke because that's not the issue and over all, I think this issue was very fruitful in dialog, but sometimes it gets tiresome and I'm reminded of how a wife is to submit to her husband, and I've heard handy and lovely talk about how they submit to their husbands even when they are in disagreement, and it made me think of how we sometimes need to submit to our brothers and sisters in Christ sometimes... and it's not always easy.

Hi Jeff

You would not be causing them to stumble, because your request was not of a sinful nature. At some point , someone needs to be the mature person and then just go with it. If anything, you will be encouraging them to broaden their horizon.

Those less versed would be considered the babes who drink the milk and do not as of yet eat the meat of the Word. Just like with your kids, you encourage them to go from the milk to the meat by putting it in front of them. You set the example of how good it taste by showing signs of enjoyment and gladness. It catches on after a while , and they become curious and encouraged.

Its not like you were asking anyone to go to the bar and drink with you.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Mike,
I can understand where you're coming from and yes, I've felt like jumping ship cause I wanted to express a much broader view of my thanks. But I do understand where you're coming from in the sense that one thing that keeps my wife and I where we are at is partly in due to the wonderful Christ like friends we have at our congregation, not to mention we've lost a lot of members in the past few years (not entirely a bad thing...) and it's our children who really suffer the loss. But anyway, I remember when I realized that it was time for me to give back to the congregation as God has blessed me with the ability to teach, and although I'm very hungry for God's word, my place in the congregation wasn't to always be fed, but to feed others. It was a painful transition, as I wanted to be fed, and didn't have the courage to feed others if that makes sense.

Hervey,
Without getting into a legalistic view of musical instruments, it would cause some to stumble in our congregation because they have been taught that musical instruments are not to be used in worship much in the same way that some believe that meat offered to idols is unclean, and sinful and should not be eaten. For those who worship a capella only, do so to the Lord and as one who can worship with musical instruments unto the Lord, when push comes to shove, I need to be mindful, and not cause them to stumble. And it is to this point of endurance that I speak about becoming weary at times, and at times simply endure when I want to do something that would cause one of my brethern to seriously stumble.. and yes, I understand about stretching their faith because it's not always about winning the argument, it's about building relationships.

 

[Mike]

Hi Mike,
I can understand where you're coming from and yes, I've felt like jumping ship cause I wanted to express a much broader view of my thanks. But I do understand where you're coming from in the sense that one thing that keeps my wife and I where we are at is partly in due to the wonderful Christ like friends we have at our congregation, not to mention we've lost a lot of members in the past few years (not entirely a bad thing...) and it's our children who really suffer the loss. But anyway, I remember when I realized that it was time for me to give back to the congregation as God has blessed me with the ability to teach, and although I'm very hungry for God's word, my place in the congregation wasn't to always be fed, but to feed others. It was a painful transition, as I wanted to be fed, and didn't have the courage to feed others if that makes sense.

Jeff, I wasn't talking about coming and going to churches. We've been at the same church for quite a while. I was talking about small in-home Bible study groups. Our church has many such groups of 5-15 people. When they get bigger than that, they are advised to splinter off with the intent to keep splintering and grow in numbers. But, we're all part of the same church. I'm not a church-hopper!

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Mike,
Too many thoughts in my head running amuck, sorry :gah

I can take criticism. Was I causing my brothers and sisters to stumble by moving on because I felt the need to be personally fed?

I was more or less referring to this, and likening it to how others may feel the need to 'move on' from one church to another. We've had a couple people 'move on' because they were not being fed, when they should have been feeding others. I'm not saying this to convict you Mike, I'm just carelessly bouncing things around a bit if that makes since.

Anyway, I don't see that as causing one to stumble as long as it was known that you're looking for more advanced growth. It may actually be an encouragement for others.

As this relates to church hoping, I can see this as a stumbling block in many ways, as often when somebody jumps from one church to another, they bring others with them and there always seems to be this "us - them' thingy.... because they never seem to get it that there isn't an 'us-them' thingy cause it's us, that makes up the them if you follow. To clarify, it's "We" that make up the body of Christ, thus, "We", are "Them", but we often forget that as the body of Christ, "We" each have our own gifts. Not all of us have ears, nor do all of us have arms. But together, we have a voice, and we can do the work of God.