Bible Study Chapters and Verses

[jaybo]

I started this discussion in another thread but was told by the staff that it wasn't the appropriate place. In fact, I was told that the topic is unimportant. I disagree, hence this thread.

I'm sure that almost everyone knows that chapters and verses are not part of Scripture. Here is a link to a good article on the subject: https://www.gotquestions.org/divided-Bible-chapters-verses.html

However, here are some relevant points... The Bible was divided into chapters in the early 13th Century, roughly 1,000 years(!) after the last Bible "books" were written. They are references only; they are not a part of Scripture. The division of the text into separate verses occurred roughly 300 years after that. They also are references only; they are not a part of Scripture.

It is my opinion that, although these additions are need for reference, they distort the Bible text. That is important! Primarily, it leads people to select sections of Scripture out of context, thereby distorting the information that is transmitted, most often to justify their own doctrine. For example, let's look at Paul's epistles. These are letters, written to specific groups of people to address theological problems, to explain doctrine, etc. But -- and this is very important -- they are often a series of interconnected thoughts that explain doctrine. The flow of Paul's thinking is critical to the message that he is conveying. It is ludicrous to chop up his writings into disconnected verses!

For example, here is Galatians 1:1-10 from the King James Bible...

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

The verse numbers are clearly additions that divide the message artificially, breaking up Paul's train of thought.

Here are those same verses from the NIV (with the verse numbers removed and my comments added)...

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers and sisters with me, [Paul identifies the sender]

To the churches in Galatia: [Paul identifies the recipients]

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. [A statement about the Godhead and its purpose]

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! [A stern warning -- the beginning of his instructions to them]

Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. [Paul declaring his purpose and authority]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been a voracious reader for my entire life. I have been devouring authors' thoughts since I was a very young child. I am cognizant that the authors divide their writings into sentences, paragraphs, and chapters for a definite purpose: to clearly convey what they want to communicate to the reader. Even though the Bible chapters and verses are necessary and convenient to reference particular thoughts, artificially dividing the text, as the King James does above, destroys the intent and message of the original author. I am fully aware that, for example, Paul did not write the epistles in sentences and paragraphs, but modern translators have made a sincere effort to convey the intent and message as clearly as possible to us, without interrupting the flow of his thoughts.

In most of the Bibles that I read, the verse numbers are in very small font so that they can be used (appropriately) for reference, but minimize the distraction from the message being conveyed. (The same principle is applied to paragraphs and chapters). We have all been taught in school to read and interpret what an author is trying to convey correctly, and it does definite harm to have points of reference and artificial divisions included as an integral part of the text, as though they are a part of the author's writing. They are not.

I welcome any and all discussion on this subject.

 

[hawkman]

The flow of Paul's thinking is critical to the message that he is conveying.

I will read the whole letter , that is what makes sense to me .When someone posts one verse, a lot of times I will go read the whole chapter and maybe more . Context is so important .

I have read the Bible a lot and my mind just ignores the verse numbers unless I need them .

How cool would it be to read the scroll of Isaiah .

 

[Cooper]

I started this discussion in another thread but was told by the staff that it wasn't the appropriate place. In fact, I was told that the topic is unimportant. I disagree, hence this thread.

I'm sure that almost everyone knows that chapters and verses are not part of Scripture. Here is a link to a good article on the subject: https://www.gotquestions.org/divided-Bible-chapters-verses.html

However, here are some relevant points... The Bible was divided into chapters in the early 13th Century, roughly 1,000 years(!) after the last Bible "books" were written. They are references only; they are not a part of Scripture. The division of the text into separate verses occurred roughly 300 years after that. They also are references only; they are not a part of Scripture.

It is my opinion that, although these additions are need for reference, they distort the Bible text. That is important! Primarily, it leads people to select sections of Scripture out of context, thereby distorting the information that is transmitted, most often to justify their own doctrine. For example, let's look at Paul's epistles. These are letters, written to specific groups of people to address theological problems, to explain doctrine, etc. But -- and this is very important -- they are often a series of interconnected thoughts that explain doctrine. The flow of Paul's thinking is critical to the message that he is conveying. It is ludicrous to chop up his writings into disconnected verses!

For example, here is Galatians 1:1-10 from the King James Bible...

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

The verse numbers are clearly additions that divide the message artificially, breaking up Paul's train of thought.

Here are those same verses from the NIV (with the verse numbers removed and my comments added)...

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers and sisters with me, [Paul identifies the sender]

To the churches in Galatia: [Paul identifies the recipients]

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. [A statement about the Godhead and its purpose]

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! [A stern warning -- the beginning of his instructions to them]

Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. [Paul declaring his purpose and authority]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been a voracious reader for my entire life. I have been devouring authors' thoughts since I was a very young child. I am cognizant that the authors divide their writings into sentences, paragraphs, and chapters for a definite purpose: to clearly convey what they want to communicate to the reader. Even though the Bible chapters and verses are necessary and convenient to reference particular thoughts, artificially dividing the text, as the King James does above, destroys the intent and message of the original author. I am fully aware that, for example, Paul did not write the epistles in sentences and paragraphs, but modern translators have made a sincere effort to convey the intent and message as clearly as possible to us, without interrupting the flow of his thoughts.

In most of the Bibles that I read, the verse numbers are in very small font so that they can be used (appropriately) for reference, but minimize the distraction from the message being conveyed. (The same principle is applied to paragraphs and chapters). We have all been taught in school to read and interpret what an author is trying to convey correctly, and it does definite harm to have points of reference and artificial divisions included as an integral part of the text, as though they are a part of the author's writing. They are not.

I welcome any and all discussion on this subject.

I absolutely agree. I hate it when people take a single verse and then spin it to their own liking. At the very least they should post the whole paragraph like these two here.

Abraham Justified by Faith
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
Rom 4:18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”
Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
(ESV)

Also, the language in the KJV belongs to an earlier era.
.

 

[Cooper]

Abraham Justified by Faith
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb.

No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (ESV)

Even better.
Is there Bible like this does anyone know?

 

[for_his_glory]

My question is why are you so fixated on this. It's all about full context whether you use book, chapter or verse numbers. I'm sure when you first began to read the Bible you appreciated your Pastor using book, chapter and verse numbers for you to read along with him during the service.

Here is an example of what I am saying:

The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses

Now I have to go to my search engine and type these words so I can find this verse in the Bible. Not only that I also need to find the full context in order to understand what that sentence means. Why is it all of a sudden so hard for you to give book, chapter and verse to make it easier for others to look them up? If you want to leave out book, chapter and verse during your study time then have at it as even I do that sometimes, but in forums or just talking to others or teaching the Bible it is a courtesy to show others where they can read those verses you share.

I feel you are making a mountain out of a mole hill

 

[jaybo]

My question is why are you so fixated on this. It's all about full context whether you use book, chapter or verse numbers. I'm sure when you first began to read the Bible you appreciated your Pastor using book, chapter and verse numbers for you to read along with him during the service.

Here is an example of what I am saying:

The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses

Now I have to go to my search engine and type these words so I can find this verse in the Bible. Not only that I also need to find the full context in order to understand what that sentence means. Why is it all of a sudden so hard for you to give book, chapter and verse to make it easier for others to look them up? If you want to leave out book, chapter and verse during your study time then have at it as even I do that sometimes, but in forums or just talking to others or teaching the Bible it is a courtesy to show others where they can read those verses you share.

I feel you are making a mountain out of a mole hill

The point is that chapter and verse numbers are there for reference; they are not part of Scripture. They distort the flow of the writing and cause readers to quote the Bible out of context.

The worst example is the King James Bible, which chops up Scripture as though it was kindling. Modern translations are far better, as they include the verse numbers in a very small but still readable font and divide the text into paragraphs, as is done in the English that you and I everyone else uses.

You wrote above "Not only that I also need to find the full context in order to understand what that sentence means". Exactly!! That is my point!! You should not have to do this!!

I always include the chapter and verse location, but I quote Scripture in context, which is extremely important. It is not making a mountain out of a mole hill. It is referencing Scripture as accurately as is possible, without distorting the message. The Bible text deserves no less.

 

[Free]

The point is that chapter and verse numbers are there for reference; they are not part of Scripture.

Of course.

They distort the flow of the writing and cause readers to quote the Bible out of context.

How do they "cause readers to quote the Bible out of context"? The context is the context whether there are numbers or not.

You wrote above "Not only that I also need to find the full context in order to understand what that sentence means". Exactly!! That is my point!! You should not have to do this!!

I always include the chapter and verse location, but I quote Scripture in context, which is extremely important. It is not making a mountain out of a mole hill. It is referencing Scripture as accurately as is possible, without distorting the message. The Bible text deserves no less.

Again, the context is the context whether there are numbers or not. I don't see how it can be argued that it is any less accurate or that it distorts the message or that it causes people to take things out of context. I don't find that to be the case at all.

I think it is easier and simpler for people to be able to look at and discuss a specific verse within a referenced section if the verse number is there, without having to go back to their Bible to figure out what verse it is they want to talk about. Or, looking at it another way, it is easier and simpler to point to a verse number rather than trying to explain exactly where within the body of the text the section is they want to discuss.

Reading with the verse and chapter numbers there is just as easy as without and generally makes things much easier, so I'm perplexed at this discussion.

 

[Cooper]

Of course.


How do they "cause readers to quote the Bible out of context"? The context is the context whether there are numbers or not.


Again, the context is the context whether there are numbers or not. I don't see how it can be argued that it is any less accurate or that it distorts the message or that it causes people to take things out of context. I don't find that to be the case at all.

I think it is easier and simpler for people to be able to look at and discuss a specific verse within a referenced section if the verse number is there, without having to go back to their Bible to figure out what verse it is they want to talk about. Or, looking at it another way, it is easier and simpler to point to a verse number rather than trying to explain exactly where within the body of the text the section is they want to discuss.

Reading with the verse and chapter numbers there is just as easy as without and generally makes things much easier, so I'm perplexed at this discussion.

All the time we see people quoting one verse out of context instead of the whole passage. Satan must love the custom. Scripture can be made to say anything we like when the spin doctors get to work. The Jehovah Witnesses are a prime example. When did the cults take off? My only plea is that the passage is quoted in full without being broken up. One verse is like a single sentence and that is no use at all.
.

 

[jaybo]

Of course.


How do they "cause readers to quote the Bible out of context"? The context is the context whether there are numbers or not.


Again, the context is the context whether there are numbers or not. I don't see how it can be argued that it is any less accurate or that it distorts the message or that it causes people to take things out of context. I don't find that to be the case at all.

I think it is easier and simpler for people to be able to look at and discuss a specific verse within a referenced section if the verse number is there, without having to go back to their Bible to figure out what verse it is they want to talk about. Or, looking at it another way, it is easier and simpler to point to a verse number rather than trying to explain exactly where within the body of the text the section is they want to discuss.

Reading with the verse and chapter numbers there is just as easy as without and generally makes things much easier, so I'm perplexed at this discussion.

It's obvious that you don't understand that the format of any document is important. The structure of the work is a vital part of it. Look at the psalms versus one of Paul's epistles if you need proof.

Even though modern versions have included chapter and versus numbers for reference they have constructed the works in a manner that is appropriate for understanding the message.

1) There is no
2) advantage in breaking
3) up what someone has written
4) to make it more difficult
5) to understand.

Frankly, I'm surprised that you don't understand that the way an author's work is presented is important. You break up what you write into sentences and paragraphs. Why do you do that?

 

[Free]

All the time we see people quoting one verse out of context instead of the whole passage. Satan must love the custom. Scripture can be made to say anything we like when the spin doctors get to work. The Jehovah Witnesses are a prime example. When did the cults take off? My only plea is that the passage is quoted in full without being broken up. One verse is like a single sentence and that is no use at all.
.

Right, but not having chapter and verse numbers isn’t going to change that. If people are going to take something out of context, they are going to take it out of context regardless of how the content is written. This happens all the time when people quote books, news stories, etc.

 

[jaybo]

Right, but not having chapter and verse numbers isn’t going to change that. If people are going to take something out of context, they are going to take it out of context regardless of how the content is written. This happens all the time when people quote books, news stories, etc.

Chapter and verse numbers are needed for reference, but they are not part of Scripture. Butchering God's word by artificially dividing it is a serious distortion of His message.

 

[Cooper]

Right, but not having chapter and verse numbers isn’t going to change that. If people are going to take something out of context, they are going to take it out of context regardless of how the content is written. This happens all the time when people quote books, news stories, etc.

It would lead to a more learned discussion if the owner of the site requested people included the context.
.

 

[for_his_glory]

The point is that chapter and verse numbers are there for reference; they are not part of Scripture.

Who ever said they were part of scripture. You are arguing against something that makes no difference to anyone. This is nothing more then pettiness on your part and to make a thread about this.

What it's all about is the full context as you do not need numbering, but to only read that which has already been written. Sometimes one sentence is enough and other times it takes the full context and also cross referencing. Read the Bible how you want and let others read it the way they want for after all it's only the Holy Spirit that can teach us.

 

[Free]

It's obvious that you don't understand that the format of any document is important.

The structure of the work is a vital part of it. Look at the psalms versus one of Paul's epistles if you need proof.

Even though modern versions have included chapter and versus numbers for reference they have constructed the works in a manner that is appropriate for understanding the message.

So, if "they have constructed the works in a manner that is appropriate for understanding the message," what then is your issue?

1) There is no
2) advantage in breaking
3) up what someone has written
4) to make it more difficult
5) to understand.

But you just said that "they have constructed the works in a manner that is appropriate for understanding the message." Is it "appropriate for understanding the message" or does it "make it more difficult to understand"?

Frankly, I'm surprised that you don't understand that the way an author's work is presented is important. You break up what you write into sentences and paragraphs. Why do you do that?

I do it because it makes it much more easy to understand.

Chapter and verse numbers are needed for reference, but they are not part of Scripture. Butchering God's word by artificially dividing it is a serious distortion of His message.

On the one hand, you argue that "the way an author's work is presented is important," that chapter and verse numbers are "not a part of Scripture," and that "butchering God's word word by artificially dividing it is a serious distortion of His message." But, on the other hand, you ignore that punctuation wasn't in the autographs, that it is a later addition to the texts.

So, since punctuation isn't a part of Scripture either, are you going to remove all the punctuation in the passages you quote, just to be consistent in your position?

Also, for as long as you've been reading the Bible, how many have Bibles you owned and read on a regular basis that didn't have chapter and verse numbers? If you haven't owned any or read any on a regular basis, if every Bible you have read has these numbers, why is it such an issue now? How is it that you haven't gotten so used to the numbers that your brain just glosses over them without even noticing they're there? More importantly, what are you going to do with all your Bibles that have seriously distorted His message by adding the artificial divisions, the numbers and the punctuation?

 

[jaybo]

Who ever said they were part of scripture. You are arguing against something that makes no difference to anyone. This is nothing more then pettiness on your part and to make a thread about this.

What it's all about is the full context as you do not need numbering, but to only read that which has already been written. Sometimes one sentence is enough and other times it takes the full context and also cross referencing. Read the Bible how you want and let others read it the way they want for after all it's only the Holy Spirit that can teach us.

I don't appreciate your superior tone. If you think that "is nothing more then pettiness", that is your problem.

The breaking up of the Bible text into verses disrupts the flow of God's message. If that isn't important to you that is very sad. All it says to me is that you don't have a full understanding of written communication.

 

[jaybo]

Ephesians 2:1-10 (NRSVue), "1 You were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. 3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, 4 but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we may walk in them."

Ephesians 2:1-10 (KJV), "2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

=> Which is clearer? <=

Again, chapters and verses are not part of Scripture. They are additions to God's Word and are for reference only. If the distortion of the Bible text isn't important to you, so be it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't appreciate your superior tone. If you think that "is nothing more then pettiness", that is your problem.

The breaking up of the Bible text into verses disrupts the flow of God's message. If that isn't important to you that is very sad. All it says to me is that you don't have a full understanding of written communication.

I don't have a superior tone as I have no reason to be superior over anyone as that would be a spirit of pride, which I do not have. After all these years I am just wondering why all of a sudden you have an issue insisting that we remove Book, Chapter and verse numbers. If we did that then there would be no way to cross reference scripture with the OT and NT for the full context. By reading many of my post and you liking them I feel you see that I do have a pretty good understanding of the scriptures.

Sorry, but I see this as leading the blind, being those who are yet young in the word and detrimental to their learning. You don't have to agree with giving Book, Chapter and verse, and even the punctuation, but that is a personal choice you have made for yourself.

 

[jaybo]

I don't have a superior tone as I have no reason to be superior over anyone as that would be a spirit of pride, which I do not have. After all these years I am just wondering why all of a sudden you have an issue insisting that we remove Book, Chapter and verse numbers. If we did that then there would be no way to cross reference scripture with the OT and NT for the full context. By reading many of my post and you liking them I feel you see that I do have a pretty good understanding of the scriptures.

Sorry, but I see this as leading the blind, being those who are yet young in the word and detrimental to their learning. You don't have to agree with giving Book, Chapter and verse, and even the punctuation, but that is a personal choice you have made for yourself.

It's really too bad that you think that all of a sudden I have an issue insisting that we remove Book, Chapter and verse numbers. That is not what I said, nor would I ever say it. You are distorting what I have said (I assume unintentionally).

What I am saying is that the format of any written text is important. By adding verse numbers as part of the Bible text, or worse, breaking it up into individual verses as the KJV does, distorts the writing. Look at you own post above. You have broken it up into two paragraphs and used punctuation Why? Why not write it in individual phrases and sentences? Like this...
1) I don't have a superior tone as I have no reason
2) to be superior over anyone as that would be a spirit
3 of pride, which I do not have.
4) After all these years I am just wondering
5) why all of a sudden you have an issue insisting
6) that we remove Book, Chapter and verse numbers.

The clear reason is that it makes it harder to read and breaks up the train of thought that you are expressing. It's the same thing with breaking up the Bible into separate verses! Why, oh why, can't you understand that?

Once again, and please pay attention to this: I am not saying anything about removing book, chapter and verse numbers! That is a distortion that exist only in your own mind and is twisting what I have written. What I am saying -- and please pay attention this time -- is that a) the formatting of the writings is an extremely important aspect of the communication and b) the chapter and verse numbers are for reference only. They are not part of Scripture! Breaking up the text into this artificial division is a distortion of the writing!

This is not "leading the blind". Distorting the Scriptures is introducing blindness to those who are yet young in the word and detrimental to their learning.

And for the last time (I hope!) I have said nothing about giving book, chapter and verse, and even the punctuation. What I have said is that a) formatting anyone's writing is important, and randomly breaking up God's word distorts the author's message. Why do you think that we have sentences and paragraphs??? That is not a personal choice I have made for myself. It is an important part of the way written language is communicated.

Why can't you understand that? Do you really not understand written communication principles?

How does this look to you?

1The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2He makes me lie down in green pastures; he leads me beside still waters; 3he restores my soul. He leads me in right paths for his name’s sake. 4Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. 5You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. 6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord my whole life long.

Formatting is important!!!

 

[for_his_glory]

It's really too bad that you think that all of a sudden I have an issue insisting that we remove Book, Chapter and verse numbers. That is not what I said, nor would I ever say it. You are distorting what I have said (I assume unintentionally).

What I am saying is that the format of any written text is important. By adding verse numbers as part of the Bible text, or worse, breaking it up into individual verses as the KJV does, distorts the writing. Look at you own post above. You have broken it up into two paragraphs and used punctuation Why? Why not write it in individual phrases and sentences? Like this...
1) I don't have a superior tone as I have no reason
2) to be superior over anyone as that would be a spirit
3 of pride, which I do not have.
4) After all these years I am just wondering
5) why all of a sudden you have an issue insisting
6) that we remove Book, Chapter and verse numbers.

The clear reason is that it makes it harder to read and breaks up the train of thought that you are expressing. It's the same thing with breaking up the Bible into separate verses! Why, oh why, can't you understand that?

Once again, and please pay attention to this: I am not saying anything about removing book, chapter and verse numbers! That is a distortion that exist only in your own mind and is twisting what I have written. What I am saying -- and please pay attention this time -- is that a) the formatting of the writings is an extremely important aspect of the communication and b) the chapter and verse numbers are for reference only. They are not part of Scripture! Breaking up the text into this artificial division is a distortion of the writing!

This is not "leading the blind". Distorting the Scriptures is introducing blindness to those who are yet young in the word and detrimental to their learning.

And for the last time (I hope!) I have said nothing about giving book, chapter and verse, and even the punctuation. What I have said is that a) formatting anyone's writing is important, and randomly breaking up God's word distorts the author's message. Why do you think that we have sentences and paragraphs??? That is not a personal choice I have made for myself. It is an important part of the way written language is communicated.

Why can't you understand that? Do you really not understand written communication principles?

How does this look to you?

1The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2He makes me lie down in green pastures; he leads me beside still waters; 3he restores my soul. He leads me in right paths for his name’s sake. 4Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. 5You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. 6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord my whole life long.

Formatting is important!!!

I only see you having a problem with all of this and I do not care to be a part of this any longer.

God bless and have a good evening

 

[jaybo]

I only see you having a problem with all of this and I do not care to be a part of this any longer.

God bless and have a good evening

a) I'm not the one having a problem with this. You are.
b) For others who might be interested, for example Free and Cooper...

A few years ago, Zondervan published the NIV in a format entitled "The Books of the Bible". Their intent was to make Scripture readable.

Explaining the format, they wrote...

Specifically, this edition of the Bible differs from the most common current format in several significant ways:

: Chapters and verse numbers have been removed from the text. [my emphasis]
: The books are presented instead according to the internal divisions that we believe the authors have indicated.
: a single-column setting is used to present the text more clearly and naturally, and to avoid disrupting the intended line breaks in poetry
: footnotes, section headings, and any other additional materials have been removed from the pages of the sacred text
: individual books that later tradition divided into two or more parts are put back together again
: the books have been placed in an order that we hope will help readers understand them better.

Why have we made these changes? First of all, the chapters and verses in the Bible weren't put there by the original authors. The present system of chapter divisions was devised in the thirteenth century and our present verse divisions weren't added until the sixteenth. Chapters and verses have imposed a foreign structure on the Bible and made it more difficult to read with understanding. Chapter divisions typically don't correspond with the actual divisions of thought. They require readers to make sense of only part of a longer discussion as if it were complete in itself, or else try to combine two separate discussions into one coherent whole. Moreover, because the Bible's chapters are all roughly the same length, they can at best only indicate sections of a certain size. This hides the existence of both larger and smaller units of thought within biblical books.

When verses are treated as intentional units (as their numbering suggests they should be) they encourage the Bible to be read as a giant reference book, perhaps as a collection of rules or a series of propositions. Also, when "Bible verses" are treated as independent and free-standing statements, they can be taken selectively out of context and arranged in such a way as to suggest that the Bible supports beliefs and positions that it really doesn't.

[my emphases throughout]

There is more to the preface, but the message is clear. You can dismiss me as being fixated on something that is unimportant, but clearly the publishers of "The Books of the Bible" disagree with you. A closed mind is a dangerous thing!