Charismatic Bible Studies - 1 Peter 4:1-6

[Hidden In Him]

Bringing The Body Under Submission, Like Soldiers Preparing For War



1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in sexual licentiousness, lusts, wine drinking, revelries, benquetings, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:1-6)

Peter started off here by talking about walking in a certain mentality (v.1-2). They were to "arm themselves with the same mind" as the Old Testament saints who already died and ascended to Heaven, and thus see themselves as having passed from death to Life as well, having now been resurrected as it were in the Spirit.

But it was more than just a mentality. It's clear they were also teaching that there were practical steps believers needed to be taking to make it a reality. Paul told the Colossians to “mortify the flesh,“ and by that he didn't mean kill the body literally but "put it to death” figuratively through fasting. This is a lifestyle Paul lived out by example, for as he once told the Corinthians, "I beat my body and bring it under submission" (1 Corinthians 9:27). What did he mean by that? He was using a boxer's analogy to say that he was continually striking his stomach with his fists to grow accustomed to taking blows, so that it could endure taking punishment. In the spiritual, he meant he was engaging in frequent fasting as a way of bringing the flesh under submission to the Spirit.

Early Church writers here understood Paul to be talking about fasting, for as Ambrosiaster stated in his commentary, "To pummel (or beat) the body is to fast, and to avoid any kind of luxury. Paul shows that he disciplines his own body so that he will not miss out on the reward about which he preaches to others." (Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul's Epistles). This is supported by Paul's own words, for he once told the Corinthians he served the Lord, "in perils in the wilderness, in perils at sea, in perils among false brethren, in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, and in fastings often." (2 Corinthians 11:26-27). The apostle Paul maintained a habit of fasting.

This cut against the grain of society, which is why Peter said they thought it strange when believers no longer wanted to engage in the same fleshy indulgences. He mentioned both wine drinking and banquets in this passage, and feasts were the high point of all ancient cultures. The dinner party was the classic form of entertainment, and in pagan cultures it was usually accompanied by scantily clad women dancing and singing provocatively as part of the after dinner entertainment. This in turn led to various types of sexual indulgence, hence why Peter said, "For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in sexual licentiousness, lusts, and abominable idolatries." There was a connection here between feasting and sexual indulgence which was not to be lost on the reader. Peter was saying that the Christian life involved bringing the flesh under submission, not giving in to its wants, and it was a point he would make in his second letter as well. The Gnostics were sometimes in attendance at the Christian "agapes," or feasts held to feed poorer believers. But instead of denying the flesh, the heretical Gnostics were gratifying it in any way possible, even if it meant seducing Christian wives or husbands away from their partners to do it.

These are spots and blemishes, reveling in their agapes while feasting together with you, having their eyes filled with an adulteress, and with incessant sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained upon sexual covetousness as accursed children. (2 Peter 2:13-14)

There was nothing wrong with an occasional feast, especially if it was intended to help feed poorer believers in Christ Jesus. But the exploitation of these gatherings by those instead living for sexual gratification is likely why the Christian agapes eventually fell out of use, and disappeared from history as a tradition no longer practiced by the church. The dominant teaching held sway that believers were to bring their flesh under submission to the Spirit as true soldiers of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that meant "making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof."


How Fasting Conquers Sin

As stated, it was widely understood among the ancients that feasting increased the sex drive and led to sexual indulgence, whereas fasting brought it under subjection. Older church traditions like the Eastern Orthodox faith still maintain this teaching and proscribe longer periods of fasting to bring the flesh under. But like the cover image for this study, disciplining the body is NOT a pleasant experience. Only the die hard soldier of Christ would even attempt such a thing. And if they do, can they be certain prolonged fasting will have the desired effect of bringing the sex drive more under control?

An experiment was conducted back in the 1940s at the University of Minnesota regarding the effects of semi-starvation on the healthy American male. Where the sex drive was concerned the results were conclusive: A low calorie diet subsisted on over the course of many months effectively brought sexual impulses under control by drastically inhibiting them.

The Minnesota Starvation Experiment, also known as the Minnesota Semi-Starvation Experiment, the Minnesota Starvation-Recovery Experiment and the Starvation Study, was a clinical study performed at the University of Minnesota between November 19, 1944, and December 20, 1945. The investigation was designed to determine the physiological effects of severe and prolonged dietary restriction and the effectiveness of dietary rehabilitation strategies... The 12-month clinical study was performed at the University of Minnesota between November 19, 1944 and December 20, 1945. Throughout the duration of the study each man was assigned specific work tasks, was expected to walk 22 miles (35 km) each week and required to keep a personal diary. An extensive battery of tests was periodically administered, including the collection of metabolic and physical measurements; X-ray examinations; treadmill performance; and intelligence and psychological evaluation.... During the starvation period, the subjects received two meals per day designed to induce the same level of nutritional stress for each participant. Since each subject had distinct metabolic characteristics, the diet of each man was adjusted throughout the starvation period to produce roughly a 25% total weight loss over the 24-week period... Participants exhibited a preoccupation with food, both during the starvation period and the rehabilitation phase. Sexual interest was drastically reduced, and the volunteers showed signs of social withdrawal and isolation. (Minnesota Experiment, Wiki)

So what happened to this teaching on how to bring the flesh under submission? Though it fell out of popularity with the modern church (and one could certainly understand why it would not be a popular teaching), this is what was taught by the church in the beginning:

Fasting cleanses the soul, raises the mind, subjects one’s flesh to the spirit, renders the heart contrite and humble, scatters the clouds of concupiscence, quenches the fire of lust, and kindles the true light of chastity. (Augustine, On Prayer and Fasting.)

The belly when filled with all kinds of food gives birth to seeds of wantonness, nor can the mind, when choked with the weight of food, keep the guidance and government of the thoughts. (John Cassian, Institutes of the Coenobia, Book V, Chapter VI)

I should wonder at the Gnostics (literally, "the Psychics"), if they were enthralled to voluptuousness alone which leads them to repeated marriages, if they were not likewise bursting with gluttony which leads them to hate fasts. Lust without voracity would certainly be considered a monstrous phenomenon, since these two are so united and concrete... through love of eating, love of impurity finds passage. I therefore recognize animalistic faith by its care of the flesh, [being] as prone to manifold feeding as to manifold marrying (Tertullian, On Fasting, Chapter 1)

The fast is the protection of virtue, the beginning of self-sacrifice, a wreath of abstinence, the beauty of virginity and holiness, the shine of chastity, the basis of a Christian life, the father of prayer, the originator of chastity and wisdom, the instructor of silence, and the leader to everything good. (St. Isaac the Syrian)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Granted, like any form of bodily discipline and training, it took getting the body used to a more fasted lifestyle before one could succeed. As one writer stated, "The holy fasters did not approach strict fasting suddenly, but little by little they became capable of being satisfied by the most meagre food" (Seraphim of Sarov). And it was also understood that true success against sin involved not just fasting the flesh but fasting the unclean thought life as well:

In a word, the good faster is the one who departs from every kind of evil... the carnal (i.e. purely physical) fast is useful for us, because it serves us in killing the passions. But the sincere fast is irrevocably necessary, because the carnal fast without it is just to eat nothing. Many fast with the body but do not fast with the soul. Many fast from food and drink, but do not fast from evil thoughts, deeds and words. (St. Tikhon of Zadonsk)

So why go to such austere measures against sin? What is the huge concern? For the New Testament saints, the answer was that they were awaiting the return of the Lord Jesus Christ from Heaven, and for the end-time saints this will increasingly become the case as well.


Awaiting The Returning King

The mentality of the New Testament writers was that Christ's return was imminent, and like soldiers who did not want to be caught unprepared for that return, they had to remain armed and ready for His coming. The world did not know Christ was returning because they did not believe He was God nor were they aware of the Biblical prophecies. But for those who were, they needed to be clothed in the armor of Light as they awaited His triumphant return:

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Notice there was again here a veiled reference to drinking and partying in the night, given Paul's reference to the saints instead needing to remain "sober" and alert, watching for Christ's return. The enemy was constantly seeking to accuse the brethren of leading sinful lives and practicing wickedness, so the saints were to put on the armor of God and the breastplate of faith, love, and righteousness to expose the enemy as a liar. Meanwhile, those who were busy feasting and drinking would be caught unawares and unprepared when the Lord came with myriads of His angels to execute judgment.

The apostle Peter echoed these same sentiments in our passage. The Judge of the living and the dead was now at the door, and all would give account for how they had lived their lives. If they had sown to the flesh, they would reap corruption and decay. If they had sown to the Spirit, they would reap everlasting Life when He came to be glorified amongst His saints. But as He warned in the Book of Revelation, they needed to watching for the return of their conquering King:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:11-21)

It should be noted in closing that, as touched on in the previous study, fasting and prayer are also what pave the way for receiving the greater supernatural gifts, and until the Lord's return, these will be the means of confirming to the world that His word and His testimony are true. We are called to fight the good fight of faith, and win souls into His eternal kingdom.


Questions & Applications

1. The Eastern Orthodox tradition still honors fasting, and even advocates observing a long fast that runs through the holiday season culminating in Christmas. Is this too "religious" in your opinion, or is it a godly thing to attempt to observe? And what do you think about structured fasts, or corporate fasts?

2. Do you believe Paul's reference to "the flesh" was just to worldly desires, or was he literally referring to the human body as opposing the things of the Spirit?

3. Most of the "solutions" to sexual sin offered nowadays involve various psychological methods, yet there is rarely a focus on dealing with the flesh itself as in ancient times. Did you or anyone you know benefit from these methods, and if so in what ways?

 

[RandyK]

Questions & Applications

1. The Eastern Orthodox tradition still honors fasting, and even advocates observing a long fast that runs through the holiday season culminating in Christmas. Is this too "religious" in your opinion, or is it a godly thing to attempt to observe? And what do you think about structured fasts, or corporate fasts?

I have a natural suspicion against "religious rules," probably due to my upbringing as a Lutheran. We were taught heavily on things like how Paul complained that religious leaders were trying to "own Christians" by imposing their own rules on them.

Gal 6.12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh.

We are warned that external religious exercises have no value in restraining sensual indulgences.

Col 2.23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

On the other hand, if we are to maintain any kind of self-discipline, in order to pursue obedience to God's commandments, we have to be able to maintain our eyes on spiritual things, and to force our bodies to behave accordingly.

I do think there is a time to fast, though I do not personally feel it important for me to do so as a religious exercise or as some kind of regular habit. However, when there is a crucial need, I think fasting is a good idea, to tell God how desperate we are for Him to take charge and help us in our distress.

I think we are all different, and have different strengths and weaknesses, though they are similar. We should pursue answers to our own particular needs--for some that may include fasting.

2. Do you believe Paul's reference to "the flesh" was just to worldly desires, or was he literally referring to the human body as opposing the things of the Spirit?

The "flesh" was a term referring to the body acting independent of God's word. That would include the eyes, the mind, and the physical acts of the body.

3. Most of the "solutions" to sexual sin offered nowadays involve various psychological methods, yet there is rarely a focus on dealing with the flesh itself as in ancient times. Did you or anyone you know benefit from these methods, and if so in what ways?

People apart from Christianity are able to curb behaviors, and that is a form of righteousness, though it does not obtain Eternal Life. Simply doing good things does not merit Eternal Life, because inward sin also has to be dealt with, and that is only curbed by a committing of our heart to Christ in the Spirit.

So anything we do good is good. But it is better to do good and to deal with inward sin such that we merit Eternal Life, by the mercy of Christ.

The world denies the reality of spiritual sin. And so, the solutions the world proposes appear to be able to curb certain behaviors, and do. But they, of course, are not dealing with the problem of internal sin.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I have a natural suspicion against "religious rules," probably due to my upbringing as a Lutheran. We were taught heavily on things like how Paul complained that religious leaders were trying to "own Christians" by imposing their own rules on them.

Gal 6.12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh.

We are warned that external religious exercises have no value in restraining sensual indulgences.

Col 2.23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Some good answers, and all three will take me some time to unpack. Sorry for the late reply, btw. Been a busy day.

Ok, I'm very glad you brought up the Colossians passage, because this is one of the texts used to refute "asceticism," or in other words the practice of fasting. But the key is in how this passage is translated, especially the end of verse 23.

I render it as follows, and keep in mind this is from very careful study of the letter in its context, knowing whose influence it was written to warn against. The verse should read as follows (and some of your translation is good, so I will borrow from it):

"Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed worship, and self-abasement, and unsparing treatment of the body, yet not in [their] having a certain value against the gratification of the flesh."

What he was saying was this. The opponents he was talking about throughout this letter were the Essenes, and they were big time into strictly keeping the Jewish dietary laws. They were about as "abased" under Jewish law as anyone on the planet, because they were fanatical about it. Super-religious, like to level of being a cult almost. But what Paul was saying was, "Yes, they are keeping an extremely strict diet, and in this sense being severe to their bodies, yet they are not doing so for the sake of bringing the flesh under. They are doing so merely to prove their ultra-strict devotion to keeping Jewish law."

This is why Paul then goes on a few verses later and says, "Put to death your members which are upon the earth," and then lists activities that identify which bodily members he was talking about specifically, saying, "fornication, [sexual] uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry." (Colossians 3:5).

He was advocating for the practice of fasting according to the teachings in this study, and verse 23 of the previous Chapter needs to be interpreted in light of it. Btw, the word "covetousness" in v.5 was a reference to sexual covetousness, as in the command, "You shalt not covet your neighbors wife." When covetousness of another person sexually becomes severe enough it turns into idolatry.

Give me some time to get to the rest later, but I love your responses. You always say it like you mean it, which makes for great discussion.
- H

 

[RandyK]

Some good answers, and all three will take me some time to unpack. Sorry for the late reply, btw. Been a busy day.

Ok, I'm very glad you brought up the Colossians passage, because this is one of the texts used to refute "asceticism," or in other words the practice of fasting. But the key is in how this passage is translated, especially the end of verse 23.

I render it as follows, and keep in mind this is from very careful study of the letter in its context, knowing whose influence it was written to warn against. The verse should read as follows (and some of your translation is good, so I will borrow from it):

"Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed worship, and self-abasement, and unsparing treatment of the body, yet not in [their] having a certain value against the gratification of the flesh."

What he was saying was this. The opponents he was talking about throughout this letter were the Essenes, and they were big time into strictly keeping the Jewish dietary laws. They were about as "abased" under Jewish law as anyone on the planet, because they were fanatical about it. Super-religious, like to level of being a cult almost. But what Paul was saying was, "Yes, they are keeping an extremely strict diet, and in this sense being severe to their bodies, yet they are not doing so for the sake of bringing the flesh under. They are doing so merely to prove their ultra-strict devotion to keeping Jewish law."

This is why Paul then goes on a few verses later and says, "Put to death your members which are upon the earth," and then lists activities that identify which bodily members he was talking about specifically, saying, "fornication, [sexual] uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry." (Colossians 3:5).

Thus, he was advocating for the ascetic practice of fasting according to the teachings in this study, and verse 23 of the previous Chapter needs to be interpreted in light of it. Btw, the word "covetousness" in v.5 was a reference to sexual covetousness, as in the command, "You shalt not covet your neighbors wife," and when covetousness of another person sexually becomes severe enough it turns into idolatry.

Give me some time to get to the rest later, but I love your responses. You always say it like you mean it, which makes for great discussion.
- H

I'm happy you see both sides of the coin on this. I was afraid you'd think I was anti-fasting.

I've pursued strict self-disciplinary approaches to Christianity from the start. I'm much less "legalistic" than I used to be. But done properly, it is much to be advised to take strong steps to put the flesh into submission.

It doesn't mean, of course, cutting off limbs or various parts, but it does mean we should think about praying and fasting and curbing excessive luxuries and entertainments.

That being said, I'm not against a measured amount of luxuries and entertainments. My wife just wanted a necklace, and I play computer games.

For me, the best way to curb the flesh is to know what pleases the Lord in our lives, and get to know Him well. He has a heart for us, and has no wish to over-load us with ascetic rules. But He will not compromise His wish to see us be holy, in order to join with Him in eternal fellowship.

The best way to be holy is to control our speech, which is nearly impossible, as James wrote. It is love and putting God's truth above all that wins God's affection, in my judgment. But it requires that we back up our words with deeds.

 

[Hidden In Him]

For me, the best way to curb the flesh is to know what pleases the Lord in our lives, and get to know Him well. He has a heart for us, and has no wish to over-load us with ascetic rules. But He will not compromise His wish to see us be holy, in order to join with Him in eternal fellowship.

This is absolutely correct, and well put once again.

That being said, I'm not against a measured amount of luxuries and entertainments. My wife just wanted a necklace, and I play computer games.

So do I, LoL. I'm about to play one now if I can keep from getting distracted with more work (but I probably will).

 

[Hidden In Him]

The "flesh" was a term referring to the body acting independent of God's word. That would include the eyes, the mind, and the physical acts of the body.

Ok, let me tackle another one, and this one was meant to be a good theological discussion, so feel free to argue an opposing point, despite the fact I believe I am correct in my position.

The primary passage that I believe has led to the opinion that "the flesh" refers to soulish desires as well physical acts is in Galatians 5, where Paul listed the various "works of the flesh."

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now one of the things listed was "witchcraft," and I used to think "Witchcraft? How can witchcraft be a work of the flesh?" But it dawned on me. Paul used the word pharmakeia from which we get pharmacy, or in other words, he was referring to the substance side of sorcery. As the CBL states, "The latter meaning denotes a concoction made of various drugs and exotic ingredients that was used in the magical arts." In the LXX it was used of magical charms and potions, so again it is a reference to material magic.

The rest of the list in Galatians 5 are standard works of the flesh like the ones discussed in this study: Adultery, fornication, sexual uncleanness, lasciviousness, murders, drunkenness, revellings, etc. or in other words physical acts of sin done with the flesh, whether verbally or with the body.

Your thoughts?

Blessings, and hope you are having a great day.
- H

 

[RandyK]

Ok, let me tackle another one, and this one was meant to be a good theological discussion, so feel free to argue an opposing point, despite the fact I believe I am correct in my position.

The primary passage that I believe has led to the opinion that "the flesh" refers to soulish desires as well physical acts is in Galatians 5, where Paul listed the various "works of the flesh."

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now one of the things listed was "witchcraft," and I used to think "Witchcraft? How can witchcraft be a work of the flesh?" But it dawned on me. Paul used the word pharmakeia from which we get pharmacy, or in other words, he was referring to the substance side of sorcery. As the CBL states, "The latter meaning denotes a concoction made of various drugs and exotic ingredients that was used in the magical arts." In the LXX it was used of magical charms and potions, so again it is a reference to material magic.

The rest of the list in Galatians 5 are standard works of the flesh like the ones discussed in this study: Adultery, fornication, sexual uncleanness, lasciviousness, murders, drunkenness, revellings, etc. or in other words physical acts of sin done with the flesh, whether verbally or with the body.

Your thoughts?

Blessings, and hope you are having a great day.
- H

I often lack clarity in my statements, so I apologize. I completely agree with you with the one exception that I think "witchcraft" refers to any application of occultic powers. I don't see it as drugs unless we see drug use as a means of "expanding consciousness," in an effort to bypass Divine revelation.

That is a form of the occult, in my opinion. It would also include the pursuit of physical pleasure apart from the will of God., ie the "lust of the flesh.," and covetousness, the "lust of the eyes."

The "flesh" therefore refers to the sinful use of the body through a depraved mind that has turned away from the word and revelation of God. The "flesh," as such, includes both the deeds of the body as well as the internal darkness of the heart that produces them.

But yes, the "flesh" certainly has to do with the "soulish desires," as you indicated. My thought was that the etymology of the word indicates that the physical body is in view.

But the "flesh," as such, has turned away from being led by the Spirit to being led by the soul, apart from God's word, guidance, and law. Therefore, the "flesh" includes all that "independence" from God suggests--not just the physical body and its works but much more, the very internal desires of the heart which turn the eyes, mind, and body away from serving the Lord.

Very good!

 

[Hidden In Him]

The "flesh" therefore refers to the sinful use of the body through a depraved mind that has turned away from the word and revelation of God. The "flesh," as such, includes both the deeds of the body as well as the internal darkness of the heart that produces them.

But yes, the "flesh" certainly has to do with the "soulish desires," as you indicated. My thought was that the etymology of the word indicates that the physical body is in view.

But the "flesh," as such, has turned away from being led by the Spirit to being led by the soul, apart from God's word, guidance, and law. Therefore, the "flesh" includes all that "independence" from God suggests--not just the physical body and its works but much more, the very internal desires of the heart which turn the eyes, mind, and body away from serving the Lord.

That's a pretty good definition : )

People apart from Christianity are able to curb behaviors, and that is a form of righteousness, though it does not obtain Eternal Life. Simply doing good things does not merit Eternal Life, because inward sin also has to be dealt with, and that is only curbed by a committing of our heart to Christ in the Spirit.

So anything we do good is good. But it is better to do good and to deal with inward sin such that we merit Eternal Life, by the mercy of Christ.

The world denies the reality of spiritual sin. And so, the solutions the world proposes appear to be able to curb certain behaviors, and do. But they, of course, are not dealing with the problem of internal sin.

Ok, let me answer this one then, and honestly I don't actually know how much success they have in the world at curbing sin such as sexual addictions...

Not sure there's the same motivation as for other sins that can potentially destroy their lives quicker and easier (gambling, drinking, substance addiction, etc). And I'd be tempted to say there's no way on earth they would endure the rigors of leading a fasted life in order to break it....

So yes, I think it starts with committing oneself to pleasing the Lord, and wanting to do what HE desires. Still doesn't mean it will be easy, but the motivation is outside ourselves and greater than just what we want, and I think it has to be. If it's just what we want, it's only a matter of time before we stop and say, "Well, if it's only about what I want, then what I want is to sin," LoL.

 

[RandyK]

From "The Shepherd of Hermas" Parable 5 on Fasting
"As I was fasting while sitting on a certain mountain and giving thanks to the Lord for all that he had done for me, I saw the shepherd sitting next to me, and he said, "Why have you come here so early?" "Because, sir," I replied. "I have a station." "What," he said, "is a 'station'?" "Sir," I replied, "I am fasting," "And what," he continued, "is this fast you are keeping?" "I am fasting, sir," I responded, "just as I have been accustomed to." "You do not know," he said, "how to fast to God, and this useless fast that you are keeping for him is not a fast." "Sir," I said, "why are you saying this?" "I am telling you," he said, "that even thoughgh you think you are fasting, this is not a fast. But I will teach you what a complete and acceptable fast to the Lord is." "Yes, sir," I said, "you will make me happy if I may learn about the fast acceptable to God." "Listen," he said. "God does not desire such a worthless fast as this, for by fasting to God in this manner, you are accomplishing nothing with respect to righteousness. But keep a fast to God in this way. Commit no evil in your life, and serve the Lord with a clean heart, keep his commandments and walk in his ordinances, and do not permit any evil desire to enter your heart, and believe in God. And if you do these things and fear him and restrain yourself from every evil deed, you will live to God, and if you do these things, you will complete a fast that is great and acceptable to God."

...."Keep the Lord's commandments, and you will be pleasing to him and will be enrolled among the number of those who keep his commandments. But if you do anything good beyond God's commandment, you will gain greater glory for yourself, and will be more honored in God's sight than you otherwise would have been. So if while keeping God's commandments you also add these services, you will rejoice, if you keep them in accordance with my commandment." I said to him, "Sir whatever you command me, I will keep it, for I know that you are with me." "I will be with you," he said, "because you have such a zeal for doing good; indeed, I will be with all those," he said, "who have a zeal such as this. This fasting," he said," is very good, if you keep the Lord's commandments." This, therefore, is how you must keep this fast which you are about to keep. First of all, guard against every evil word and every evil desire, and cleanse your heart of all the vanities of this world. If you observe those things, this fast of yours will be perfect. And this is what you must do: when you have fulfilled what has been written, you must taste nothing except bread and water on that day on which you fast. Then you must estimate the amount of the cost of the food you would have eaten on that day on which you intend to fast, and give it to a widow or an orphan or someone in need. In this way you will become humble-minded, so that as a result of your humble-mindedness the one who receives may satisfy his own soul and pray to the Lord on your behalf. If, then, you complete the fast in this way, as I have commanded you, your sacrifice will be acceptable in God's sight, and this fast will be recorded, and the service performed in this way is beautiful and joyous and acceptable to the Lord. This is how you must observe these things with your children and your whole household, and in observing them, you will be blessed, indeed, all those who hear and observe them will be blessed, and whatever they ask from the Lord they will receive."

 

[RandyK]

Ok, let me answer this one then, and honestly I don't actually know how much success they have in the world at curbing sin such as sexual addictions...

People can become ascetics and monks and be successful at it, depending on whether God has given them that gift, to be self-controlled in sexual compulsions. Others, who think they are strong in this, and are not given to such strength, unwisely pursue asceticism and fail in their thoughts and actions. On the surface, some appear to succeed in, for example, celibacy. But in reality, they fail.

Those non-Christians or purely nominal Christians who succeed in controlling their sexual desires do not thereby prove to be virtuous in all matters. In not indulging in adultery or fornication they do well. But Christianity consists of surrending the whole body, and the whole mind, to God. If one part of the tree does well, while the trunk of the tree is gradually rotting and decaying, then what good is it that one branch is doing well? The whole tree is going to die!

Not sure there's the same motivation as for other sins that can potentially destroy their lives quicker and easier (gambling, drinking, substance addiction, etc). And I'd be tempted to say there's no way on earth they would endure the rigors of leading a fasted life in order to break it....

Those who fast to curb licentious behavior can have the right motives in part. But inasmuch as they are not true Christians in their whole behavior at least part of their motivation is suspect. Some of their purpose is to appear righteous and to cover up the fact they do not give all to God.

So yes, I think it starts with committing oneself to pleasing the Lord, and wanting to do what HE desires. Still doesn't mean it will be easy, but the motivation is outside ourselves and greater than just what we want, and I think it has to be. If it's just what we want, it's only a matter of time before we stop and say, "Well, if it's only about what I want, then what I want is to sin," LoL.

Yes, we are surrendering to God, and not living independent lives for some ulterior purpose. If we are not in full surrender mode we will continue to be motivated by our own interests, and not the interests of God. We will prove to be duplicitious, wanting to do some good, while keeping some of our lives for ourselves, apart from God.

I've posted a little quote from the "Shepherd of Hermas," which I think is pretty cool. Let me know what you think? I don't think it's canonical Scripture, although in some early lists it was included with the NT epistles. I personally think it is inspired by the Spirit and by angels. I say this because it helps me, and I hope it helps others here too?

 

[Hidden In Him]

From "The Shepherd of Hermas" Parable 5 on Fasting
"As I was fasting while sitting on a certain mountain and giving thanks to the Lord for all that he had done for me, I saw the shepherd sitting next to me, and he said, "Why have you come here so early?" "Because, sir," I replied. "I have a station." "What," he said, "is a 'station'?" "Sir," I replied, "I am fasting," "And what," he continued, "is this fast you are keeping?" "I am fasting, sir," I responded, "just as I have been accustomed to." "You do not know," he said, "how to fast to God, and this useless fast that you are keeping for him is not a fast." "Sir," I said, "why are you saying this?" "I am telling you," he said, "that even though you think you are fasting, this is not a fast. But I will teach you what a complete and acceptable fast to the Lord is." "Yes, sir," I said, "you will make me happy if I may learn about the fast acceptable to God." "Listen," he said. "God does not desire such a worthless fast as this, for by fasting to God in this manner, you are accomplishing nothing with respect to righteousness. But keep a fast to God in this way. Commit no evil in your life, and serve the Lord with a clean heart, keep his commandments and walk in his ordinances, and do not permit any evil desire to enter your heart, and believe in God. And if you do these things and fear him and restrain yourself from every evil deed, you will live to God, and if you do these things, you will complete a fast that is great and acceptable to God."

...."Keep the Lord's commandments, and you will be pleasing to him and will be enrolled among the number of those who keep his commandments. But if you do anything good beyond God's commandment, you will gain greater glory for yourself, and will be more honored in God's sight than you otherwise would have been. So if while keeping God's commandments you also add these services, you will rejoice, if you keep them in accordance with my commandment." I said to him, "Sir whatever you command me, I will keep it, for I know that you are with me." "I will be with you," he said, "because you have such a zeal for doing good; indeed, I will be with all those," he said, "who have a zeal such as this. This fasting," he said," is very good, if you keep the Lord's commandments." This, therefore, is how you must keep this fast which you are about to keep. First of all, guard against every evil word and every evil desire, and cleanse your heart of all the vanities of this world. If you observe those things, this fast of yours will be perfect. And this is what you must do: when you have fulfilled what has been written, you must taste nothing except bread and water on that day on which you fast. Then you must estimate the amount of the cost of the food you would have eaten on that day on which you intend to fast, and give it to a widow or an orphan or someone in need. In this way you will become humble-minded, so that as a result of your humble-mindedness the one who receives may satisfy his own soul and pray to the Lord on your behalf. If, then, you complete the fast in this way, as I have commanded you, your sacrifice will be acceptable in God's sight, and this fast will be recorded, and the service performed in this way is beautiful and joyous and acceptable to the Lord. This is how you must observe these things with your children and your whole household, and in observing them, you will be blessed, indeed, all those who hear and observe them will be blessed, and whatever they ask from the Lord they will receive."

Exactly! That was how the early fathers nearly always wrote as well. There was a distancing from the standard Jewish mindset that they were doing it merely to keep the law. Instead there was this refocus on making sure it was directed towards changing one's behavior and conduct. But it was understood that there was a value on the physical fast nonetheless.

The difference today is that many no longer understand the value in a physical fast, so they throw the baby out with the bathwater and then get confused, thinking the only fast is to change one's conduct. That's where and how we went wrong.

 

[Hidden In Him]

People can become ascetics and monks and be successful at it, depending on whether God has given them that gift, to be self-controlled in sexual compulsions. Others, who think they are strong in this, and are not given to such strength, unwisely pursue asceticism and fail in their thoughts and actions. On the surface, some appear to succeed in, for example, celibacy. But in reality, they fail.

Those non-Christians or purely nominal Christians who succeed in controlling their sexual desires do not thereby prove to be virtuous in all matters. In not indulging in adultery or fornication they do well. But Christianity consists of surrending the whole body, and the whole mind, to God. If one part of the tree does well, while the trunk of the tree is gradually rotting and decaying, then what good is it that one branch is doing well? The whole tree is going to die!

Those who fast to curb licentious behavior can have the right motives in part. But inasmuch as they are not true Christians in their whole behavior at least part of their motivation is suspect. Some of their purpose is to appear righteous and to cover up the fact they do not give all to God.

Yes, we are surrendering to God, and not living independent lives for some ulterior purpose. If we are not in full surrender mode we will continue to be motivated by our own interests, and not the interests of God. We will prove to be duplicitious, wanting to do some good, while keeping some of our lives for ourselves, apart from God.

I've posted a little quote from the "Shepherd of Hermas," which I think is pretty cool. Let me know what you think? I don't think it's canonical Scripture, although in some early lists it was included with the NT epistles. I personally think it is inspired by the Spirit and by angels. I say this because it helps me, and I hope it helps others here too?

Gonna respond to this one tomorrow, and more good points.