Children of Unbelievers

[Solo]

PS...mutzein,
Theres too many questions being answered with questions.
My conclusion is that infants are unable to make any decisions, unable to reject Jesus, unable to break Gods laws. Therefore Gods perfect love, mercy, grace, and justice enables them to belong to Him and His kingdom.

All I am asking Destiny is this.

Why does Christendom in general say that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and yet when it comes to innocents (such as babies) they skirt around it, looking for a way to allow them into heaven without being born again.

Don't you see this is as an inconsistency? Now I am not questioning for a moment, God's love, mercy, grace, justice etc. I'm questioning a theology which is based on an unsound premise.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

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[mutzrein]

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

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Solo - are you saying that this refers to innocents, children & the like?

 

[Rob]

Why does Christendom in general say that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and yet when it comes to innocents (such as babies) they skirt around it, looking for a way to allow them into heaven without being born again.

Don't you see this is as an inconsistency? Now I am not questioning for a moment, God's love, mercy, grace, justice etc. I'm questioning a theology which is based on an unsound premise.

As an adult one must be born again because they have sinned, all have sinned, and I do not know of but one person who has never sinned. A child has yet had the opportunity to sin, so there is no need for repentance or being born again.

 

[mutzrein]

Why does Christendom in general say that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and yet when it comes to innocents (such as babies) they skirt around it, looking for a way to allow them into heaven without being born again.

Don't you see this is as an inconsistency? Now I am not questioning for a moment, God's love, mercy, grace, justice etc. I'm questioning a theology which is based on an unsound premise.

As an adult one must be born again because they have sinned, all have sinned, and I do not know of but one person who has never sinned. A child has yet had the opportunity to sin, so there is no need for repentance or being born again.

So what you are saying is that Jesus' statement, "You must be born again" does not apply to all of mankind?

 

[Solo]

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

.

Solo - are you saying that this refers to innocents, children & the like?

I am saying that God says that one must be born again, both of flesh and of Spirit, and the Spirit goes to where he goes, and as the Spirit goes and no man knoweth, so is every one that is born of the Spirit, whether infants or children or adults. Not everyone that speaks of knowing God is born again, as the Spirit may not have come to them as yet. No Roman Catholic is born again when baptized as an infant no matter how hard they argue the point; only those to whom the Spirit comes to, will be born again. When the Spirit of God came to me when I was born again, it was very noticable to others that a work of God had taken place. Even though I had been baptized as an infant twenty-eight years earlier, I was not born again.

 

[destiny]

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Thats good, solo. Amen

Also..

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
Romans 8:16

It's not always something observed naturally, this would be especially true in the case of infants who are unable to show outward fruits.
God is perfectly just

 

[JM]

Still no Scripture? No wonder atheists attack the faith. :-? The thing is, there isn't any Scripture, that was what I was asking in the op that everyone decided to upset about. No where in Scripture are unbelievers given hope, only believers have hope.

:smt119 Have of these post have taken the emotional root and left Scripture in the dust.

 

[destiny]

Still no Scripture? No wonder atheists attack the faith. :-? The thing is, there isn't any Scripture, that was what I was asking in the op that everyone decided to upset about. No where in Scripture are unbelievers given hope, only believers have hope.

:smt119 Have of these post have taken the emotional root and left Scripture in the dust.

But on the other hand, some people want to see everything in the letter yet they lack spiritual understanding.
Spirit 'and' truth ...right?
Thats why an unbeliever isn't always convinced, because they lack the spiritual understanding which must go hand in hand with the truth.
I know Gods character in my spirit as well as in His word. This tells me most times what He will or will not do.
No, it doesn't make for much on paper but it's a fact just the same. :wink:

 

[JM]

Still no Scripture? No wonder atheists attack the faith. :-? The thing is, there isn't any Scripture, that was what I was asking in the op that everyone decided to upset about. No where in Scripture are unbelievers given hope, only believers have hope.

:smt119 Have of these post have taken the emotional root and left Scripture in the dust.

But on the other hand, some people want to see everything in the letter yet they lack spiritual understanding.
Spirit 'and' truth ...right?
Thats why an unbeliever isn't always convinced, because they lack the spiritual understanding which must go hand in hand with the truth.
I know Gods character in my spirit as well as in His word. This tells me most times what He will or will not do.
No, it doesn't make for much on paper but it's a fact just the same. :wink:

Please use scripture to back up your assumptions. Thanks.

 

[Rob]

So what you are saying is that Jesus' statement, "You must be born again" does not apply to all of mankind?

Well, do you think the criminal on the cross beside Jesus was born again of the spiriit, or was it more that he acknoledged Jesus for who he was?

 

[Rob]

Still no Scripture? No wonder atheists attack the faith. :-? The thing is, there isn't any Scripture, that was what I was asking in the op that everyone decided to upset about. No where in Scripture are unbelievers given hope, only believers have hope.

:smt119 Have of these post have taken the emotional root and left Scripture in the dust.

I sure hope that post isn't directed toward what I've posted in any way.

Ezekiel 18:1-32
Tells us that God doesn't hold the sin of the father against the son. If this is true then how can an innocent child, not yet even given the chance to sin, be condemned to hell for sins they have not committed? Romans 9:11 makes the claim that a child has not done good or evil, not my emotions.

Rom 9:11 LITV for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,


Rom 5:12-21 LITV Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned. (13) For sin was in the world until Law, but sin is not charged where there is no law; (14) but death reigned from Adam until Moses, even on those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of the coming One. (15) But the free gift is not also like the deviation. For if by the deviation of the one the many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace, which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, did abound to the many. (16) And the gift is not as by one having sinned; for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many deviations to justification. (17) For if by the deviation of the one death reigned through the one, much more those who are receiving the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall rule in life by the One, Jesus Christ. (18) So then, as through one deviation it was toward all men to condemnation, so also through one righteous act toward all men to justification of life. (19) For as through the one man's disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous. (20) But Law came in besides, that the deviation might abound. But where sin abounded, grace much more abounded, (21) that as sin ruled in death, so also grace might rule through righteousness to everlasting life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ecc 7:29 LITV See, this only I have found, that God has made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[destiny]

Still no Scripture? No wonder atheists attack the faith. :-? The thing is, there isn't any Scripture, that was what I was asking in the op that everyone decided to upset about. No where in Scripture are unbelievers given hope, only believers have hope.

:smt119 Have of these post have taken the emotional root and left Scripture in the dust.

But on the other hand, some people want to see everything in the letter yet they lack spiritual understanding.
Spirit 'and' truth ...right?
Thats why an unbeliever isn't always convinced, because they lack the spiritual understanding which must go hand in hand with the truth.
I know Gods character in my spirit as well as in His word. This tells me most times what He will or will not do.
No, it doesn't make for much on paper but it's a fact just the same. :wink:

Please use scripture to back up your assumptions. Thanks.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello JM,
Do these two portions of scripture qualify for you OP?

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.†(Taken from Exodus 33, In context, I believe this qualifies as God was going to wipe away the 'children' of Isreal...)9:16 So then,it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy.

Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in former times was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and through encouragement of the scriptures we may have hope.

 

[JM]

Known of the Scripture quoted thus far speak to unbelievers offering hope.

 

[mutzrein]

So what you are saying is that Jesus' statement, "You must be born again" does not apply to all of mankind?

Well, do you think the criminal on the cross beside Jesus was born again of the spiriit, or was it more that he acknoledged Jesus for who he was?

Rob - sorry I should have qualified my statement. With reference to all of mankind I am referring to those who have lived since the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father after Jesus returned to Him.

As Jesus said, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

 

[stovebolts]

Hello JM. I want to make sure that I’ve got this right…

What happens to the children of unbelievers who die before they are able to believe [this covers handicap folks as well]? It's my understanding, the Scriptures are silent as to UNBELIEVERS BUT NOT TO BELIEVERS and their offspring who die before they accept or reject the Gospel.

Let me make sure I have this right.
Your asking what happens to the children of unbelievers (lets use a 2 month old baby just to reduce the argument, is that ok?).
Let me offer this, as a believer.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.†(Taken from Exodus 33)9:16 So then,it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy.

Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in former times was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and through encouragement of the scriptures we may have hope.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.

From a believers standpoint, the key word here is he that fears him
So, I would argue that it matters little if an infant were from a Christian household or a satanic household and the argument would eventually end with, God will have mercy on whom He chooses to have Mercy on. I’ve got many more scriptures that I could reference, but I do not believe that this is your point.

I am having a hard time understanding what your real question is because you make reference to Believers and Non-Believers. Again, it matters not as God is not a respecter of persons and thus, scripture is NOT silent.

If these scriptures do not address your OP, please have the consideration as to why they do not address your OP.

Known of the Scripture quoted thus far speak to unbelievers offering hope.

Did you mean None of the Scriptures and is this what you meant by silent? Are you asking if there is any scripture that would give an unbeliever hope for their deceased child?
First, if an unbeliever rejects the gospel (Christ crucified and resurrected on the third day, which is the hope of every Christian), then it is doubtful that he believes in heaven to begin with and he will have to lean on himself, which from what I can see, is not hope at all.

Before I proceed, what are you calling an Unbeliever? Would an unbeliever be one who actively rejects the Word of God or does one that has never heard the Gospel qualify as an Unbeliever?

Please define hope and in closing, could you recap what this OP is in total regard to?

Thanks,

 

[JM]

Did you mean None of the Scriptures and is this what you meant by silent? Are you asking if there is any scripture that would give an unbeliever hope for their deceased child?
First, if an unbeliever rejects the gospel (Christ crucified and resurrected on the third day, which is the hope of every Christian), then it is doubtful that he believes in heaven to begin with and he will have to lean on himself, which from what I can see, is not hope at all.

Before I proceed, what are you calling an Unbeliever? Would an unbeliever be one who actively rejects the Word of God or does one that has never heard the Gospel qualify as an Unbeliever?

Yes. :

 

[stovebolts]

Did you mean None of the Scriptures and is this what you meant by silent? Are you asking if there is any scripture that would give an unbeliever hope for their deceased child?
First, if an unbeliever rejects the gospel (Christ crucified and resurrected on the third day, which is the hope of every Christian), then it is doubtful that he believes in heaven to begin with and he will have to lean on himself, which from what I can see, is not hope at all.

Before I proceed, what are you calling an Unbeliever? Would an unbeliever be one who actively rejects the Word of God or does one that has never heard the Gospel qualify as an Unbeliever?

Yes. :

Ohh, your Bad JM lol

 

[stovebolts]

That's why you worded your initial post the way you did... I believe it's all coming together

...who die before they accept or reject the Gospel.

covers my question
"or does one that has never heard the Gospel qualify as an Unbeliever"

Right?

 

[JM]

If you don't believe you are an unbeliever.