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Christ IN The Flesh............

I

Imagican

Guest
I KNOW what the 'trinitarian view' of this MUST BE. But what about the 'reality' of Christ IN The Flesh?

Having NEVER been 'in the flesh', wouldn't He have LEARNED about 'the flesh' as He SPENT TIME 'in it'? I mean, EVEN IF Christ 'were God', IF He had NEVER been 'in the flesh', it CERTAINLY took some 'getting USE to'?

I just WONDER what 'others' THINK of this. Ever WONDER what a 'different' experience it MUST have BEEN for HIM?

MEC
 
Imagican said:
I KNOW what the 'trinitarian view' of this MUST BE. But what about the 'reality' of Christ IN The Flesh?

Having NEVER been 'in the flesh', wouldn't He have LEARNED about 'the flesh' as He SPENT TIME 'in it'? I mean, EVEN IF Christ 'were God', IF He had NEVER been 'in the flesh', it CERTAINLY took some 'getting USE to'?

I just WONDER what 'others' THINK of this. Ever WONDER what a 'different' experience it MUST have BEEN for HIM?

MEC

Hi MEC,

The issue is that of true humanity - sin robs those born in its domain of the experience of being truly human. Therefore - the human nature of Jesus is the reference point for our humanity. You also had never been in the flesh before you were born - but in the case of Jesus all flesh was made in His likeness and image.
 
What do you mean, "even if Christ WERE God?"

Jesus IS God and He appeared to men many times in the Old Testament---to Abraham most notably, in the flesh. I think Jesus was quite at home in His fleshly body, aware of it's appetites and weaknesses and vulnerabilities, but He overcame every one!
 
Alabaster said:
What do you mean, "even if Christ WERE God?"

Jesus IS God and He appeared to men many times in the Old Testament---to Abraham most notably, in the flesh. I think Jesus was quite at home in His fleshly body, aware of it's appetites and weaknesses and vulnerabilities, but He overcame every one!

While I am CERTAINLY aware of the 'limited' teaching that is contained within the 'churches', there is CERTAINLY a 'deeper understanding' that MANY would choose to ignore for their NOT 'being TAUGHT it in Sunday school'.

HOW MANY TIMES do you reacon Jesus was BORN in the flesh. How many TIMES do you reacon He EXPERIENCED this? How MANY TIMES do you reacon that Jesus DIED? How often do you reacon the SPIRITUAL Jesus ATE bread or DRANK wine?

Regardless of your BELIEF that Jesus IS or WAS God, He was STILL a MAN in the FLESH. Even those that believe in 'trinity' KNOW that He 'gave up' much of HIs power to BECOME HUMAN. FULLY HUMAN. BORN of a HUMAN. LIVED AS A HUMAN. DIED AS A HUMAN.

What I have offered in contemplation is WHAT it MUST have been LIKE for Him to BE 'in the Flesh'. Do you NOT recognize that it would have BEEN a learning experience for Him REGARDLESS of deity. That even though He may have well VISITED this earth BEFORE, the LIFETIME that HE LIVED would have been SPECIAL and UNIQUE. Something DIFFERENT than His PREVIOUS incarnations due to the PURPOSE of EITHER.

In other words, we do NOT KNOW that He 'gave up' ANYTHING in His PREVIOUS visits, (if there were indeed 'other visits'). But we DO KNOW that upon His life on Earth AS Jesus, this was DIFFERENT than ANYTHING ELSE that we have KNOWLEDGE of Him DOING.

My POINT? Do you BELIEVE that PREVIOUS to His incarnation that He had EXPERIENCED EVERYTHING possible that ANY man has EVER experienced? Or are you ABLE to recognize that His experience here would HAVE BEEN unique and one in which He MUST have LEARNED MUCH.

You say we were 'created in HIS image'. Now, I would ask: EXACTLY 'what do YOU think' that image IS? Physical? Spiritual? BOTH? And do you BELIEVE that God has EXPERIENCED everything that MANKIND has experienced? CAREFUL with your answer...........

MEC
 
You say we were 'created in HIS image'. Now, I would ask: EXACTLY 'what do YOU think' that image IS? Physical? Spiritual? BOTH? And do you BELIEVE that God has EXPERIENCED everything that MANKIND has experienced? CAREFUL with your answer...........
God is Spirit; we were created in His "spiritual" image. God didn't become man for His sake, He became man for our sake.

Eccl 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

One would have to experience it all to know that. ;-)
 
Just what do you think the Lord Jesus, God incarnate could possibly LEARN?

He knows all things!
 
Hi MEC,

You say we were 'created in HIS image'. Now, I would ask: EXACTLY 'what do YOU think' that image IS? Physical? Spiritual? BOTH? And do you BELIEVE that God has EXPERIENCED everything that MANKIND has experienced? CAREFUL with your answer...........

I would think that that which is reflected in us, as an image and likeness, is the the Son of God.

I believe that God's experience of mankind is perfect while mankinds' experience of itself is imperfect.
 
Alabaster said:
Just what do you think the Lord Jesus, God incarnate could possibly LEARN?

He knows all things!

See, you 'speak' without COMPLETE understanding.

In answer to your inquiry: Christ IN The Flesh MOST definitely was ABLE to learn. For He OPENLY admitted that He did NOT 'know' ALL THINGS.

MEC
 
Firstly:

We have EXAMPLE and witness that Christ PRAYED continuously THROUGHOUT His ministry.

Now, WHAT do you suppose HIS prayers 'consisted of'? Do you NOT 'think' that He prayed for the SAME type 'things' that we TOO have been instructed to PRAY FOR? Strength, guidance, wisdom, patience, LOVE, humility, etc..............?

We even HAVE a specific INSTANCE of His prayer in which we can SEE that He was NOT 'all knowing' or 'ALL powerful' as some would interject. "Let this cup pass from me'', is a PRIME example of one that is NOT as ''COMPLETE in POWER'' as SOME would assume and state. And, ''not MY WILL but Thine be done''. Isn't this OBVIOUS in it's nature of 'confusion'?

Now, HOW do you propose that even Christ could BE Flesh WITHOUT suffering the SAME frailties of the flesh? Subjected to TEMPTATION, pain, suffering, hunder, thirst, LOVE? To believe ANYTHING ELSE is to 'take away' what He DID. For, as SIN was 'brought into this world through ONE MAN, so too was it defeated by ONE MAN. So, if NOT COMPLETELY A MAN, then these statements would MEAN NOTHING.

Was Christ NOT 'physically BORN'? Did He NOT 'physically DIE'? Did He NOT 'physically live and LOVE'? Did He NOT 'physically SUFFER pain and humiliation'?

Offer understanding and praise where it is DUE. What we are to PRAISE Christ FOR is NOT 'being God' but 'LOVING and SUFFERING FOR US'. Only when one ATTEMPTS to 'make Christ God Himself' do we see the limited understanding of HIS LIFE.

Just as Abraham was commanded BY God to offer his SON as sacrifice to SHOW his love, God Himself DID offer HIS Son as sacrifice for US, the 'seed' of Abraham. For HOW ELSE would the example be ABLE to TEACH us? Where Abraham's son was spared, God's Son actually SUFFERED death in the Flesh for OUR sins. Do you NOT recognize the LOVE offered in such a sacrifice?

MEC
 
Imagican said:
Alabaster said:
Just what do you think the Lord Jesus, God incarnate could possibly LEARN?

He knows all things!

See, you 'speak' without COMPLETE understanding.

In answer to your inquiry: Christ IN The Flesh MOST definitely was ABLE to learn. For He OPENLY admitted that He did NOT 'know' ALL THINGS.

MEC

You have spoken error. Jesus knows all things. It is He who imparts all knowledge to us by His Spirit through the Word of God! Jesus, as God incarnate is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent!

Jesus PUT ON FLESH and many of the limitations of flesh voluntarily, but NOWHERE has Jesus EVER declared He did not have all knowledge!
 
Ok Alabaster,

But ANYTHING that "I" offer can be backed by scripture. What YOU have offered is NOTHING short of PERSONAL OPINION. I don't have a PROBLEM with OPINION, but when you offer it you should AT LEAST state it AS SUCH.

Now, in answer to you last TWO posts. SCRIPTURALLY, Christ did NOT KNOW 'all things'. If you have READ The Word then you KNOW that He OPENLY admitted this HIMSELF. So WHY are you SO adament in a 'denial of this FACT'?

MEC
 
Imagican said:
Ok Alabaster,

But ANYTHING that "I" offer can be backed by scripture. What YOU have offered is NOTHING short of PERSONAL OPINION. I don't have a PROBLEM with OPINION, but when you offer it you should AT LEAST state it AS SUCH.

Now, in answer to you last TWO posts. SCRIPTURALLY, Christ did NOT KNOW 'all things'. If you have READ The Word then you KNOW that He OPENLY admitted this HIMSELF. So WHY are you SO adament in a 'denial of this FACT'?

MEC


As your position is not Scriptural, my point is made. Jesus NEVER admitted such a thing!
 
Alabaster,

Is you 'position' that Chirst is the Father as well as The Son?

MEC
 
Imagican said:
Alabaster,

Is you 'position' that Chirst is the Father as well as The Son?

MEC


The Father is the Father, and the Son is the Son, and the Spirit is the Spirit---all are one GOD.
 
Jesus never lost His power as God when was incarnate as a man. It seems that some have a mixed up idea of Jesus. Let me ask you something, How close can you be to infinite? The answer is, Not anything at all anywhere near infinite. Any finite thing is infinitely smaller than that which is infinite. therefor Jesus could not be "almost God" or very close. You either are God or you are not. I'm a trinitarian and a unitarian. God is one but also three. Now back to my first point, Jesus never lost any of his power in becoming a man. Never forget that he took that nature upon himself. God already knew what it was like to be a man, he is omniscient. Jesus simply restrained certain attributes in order to take on the nature of a man. None of God's attributes are greater than any other, they are simply manifest more clearly to us at certain times. If Jesus was not fully God and fully man then it would not be possible for him to atone for our sins. If you can't believe Jesus could come down to earth as God on his own will, lay down his life, and take it back up again; how can you believe he has the power to bare your sins?
 
6640 said:
Jesus never lost His power as God when was incarnate as a man. It seems that some have a mixed up idea of Jesus. Let me ask you something, How close can you be to infinite? The answer is, Not anything at all anywhere near infinite. Any finite thing is infinitely smaller than that which is infinite. therefor Jesus could not be "almost God" or very close. You either are God or you are not. I'm a trinitarian and a unitarian. God is one but also three. Now back to my first point, Jesus never lost any of his power in becoming a man. Never forget that he took that nature upon himself. God already knew what it was like to be a man, he is omniscient. Jesus simply restrained certain attributes in order to take on the nature of a man. None of God's attributes are greater than any other, they are simply manifest more clearly to us at certain times. If Jesus was not fully God and fully man then it would not be possible for him to atone for our sins. If you can't believe Jesus could come down to earth as God on his own will, lay down his life, and take it back up again; how can you believe he has the power to bare your sins?

Interesting 'opinion'.......

Now, can God DIE? Is it POSSIBLE for God to PHYSICALLY DIE. Or is it EVEN possible for God to 'take on' the FLESH. For we have been TOLD that the FLESH is 'something' that God WON'T even LOOK UPON.

You STATE that God HAD to 'come in the Flesh' in order to 'atone' for sin. Funny, but MY Bible states that SIN 'came into this world through one MAN'. And that sin was NEED BE 'defeated by one MAN as well'.

You state, "Jesus simply restrained certain attributes in order to take on the nature of a man." And then you state: "Jesus never lost His power as God when was incarnate as a man". Now, I ask 'which is it'?

The 'Bible' PLAINLY states that NO MAN has EVER 'seen' God. Yet YOU would have me BELIEVE that Jesus WAS God. Hmmmmmmmmm.........

Alabaster,

when ASKED outright of the RETURN of Christ, His answer was that HE DID NOT KNOW the TIME of His return. That ONLY the Father KNEW this answer. Yet YOU would have me BELIEVE that Jesus KNOWS EVERYTHING, for He IS God.

God called Jesus HIS SON. Jesus called God HIS FATHER. The apostles state that God is OUR God and THE GOD of Christ ALSO. Yet you would STATE that Christ IS God PERIOD. Not a 'part' of the Godhead, but THE Godhead. Yet the Bible PLAINLY teaches that GOD is the Head of Christ, as Christ is the Head of man, as Man is the Head of Woman. But I guess this just doesn't really MEAN what it states, RIGHT?

And WHAT is "Unitarian''?

MEC
 
Oh, and NOTE that when the Word offers that Father, Son and Spirit are ONE, this does NOT mean 'the same'. And ALSO NOTE that the Word offers that God IS the God of Christ AND Our God. This would INDICATE that Christ, while BEING a 'part of God' is NOT God Himself. Just as ANY Father's Son is a 'part of the Father' but NOT 'THE' Father.

But back to the topic:

I guess since there ARE those that BELIEVE that Christ IS God and KNOWS EVERYTHING, (even BELIEVING this AGAINST scripture), this topic is OBVIOUSLY, 'NOT FOR YOU'. I didn't START it to be TOLD how it is IMPOSSIBLE for Christ to have LEARNED. You may THINK this, but there is NO WAY that you are ABLE to OFFER any substantiation for this belief other than YOUR DESIRE to 'believe in such a manner'.

So, I guess for those that have NEVER even 'thought about it', YOU BELIEVE that Christ was BORN with the 'ability to TALK'. That He DIDN'T have to LEARN this behavior like ANY OTHER MAN. That He DIDN'T have to READ scripture or STUDY His religion. That upon His BIRTH, He KNEW ALL THINGS. My reply; That is LUDICROUS. We have NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER that He was SPEAKING OUT OF THE WOMB or WALKING out of the womb, and we even have indication of Him suckling His mother's breasts.

But, IF the IDEA of a Christ that NEEDED to LEARN, then I guess this topic is MOOT so far as YOU are concerned. Yet we even have the words of an ADULT Christ stating that He LEARNED from WATCHING The Father. That the words that He offered were NOT His OWN but GIVEN Him BY The Father. It would take a BUNCH of 'word wrangling' to TALK one's WAY around the WORDS of Christ Himself. In other words, one would have to attempt to THINK That THEY knew BETTER than Christ Himself of HIS nature.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
You state, "Jesus simply restrained certain attributes in order to take on the nature of a man." And then you state: "Jesus never lost His power as God when was incarnate as a man". Now, I ask 'which is it'?
There is a difference between restraining something and losing it.

Main Entry:
re·strain Listen to the pronunciation of restrain
Pronunciation:
\ri-ˈstrÄÂn\
Function:
transitive verb
Etymology:
Middle English restraynen, from Anglo-French restreindre, from Latin restringere to restrain, restrict, from re- + stringere to bind tight  more at strain
Date:
14th century

1 a: to prevent from doing, exhibiting, or expressing something <restrained the child from jumping> b: to limit, restrict, or keep under control <try to restrain your anger>2: to moderate or limit the force, effect, development, or full exercise of <restrain


Main Entry:
lose Listen to the pronunciation of lose
Pronunciation:
\ˈlüz\
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
lost Listen to the pronunciation of lost \ˈlȯst\; los·ing Listen to the pronunciation of losing \ˈlü-ziŋ\
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English losian to perish, lose, from los destruction; akin to Old English lēosan to lose; akin to Old Norse losa to loosen, Latin luere to atone for, Greek lyein to loosen, dissolve, destroy
Date:
before 12th century

transitive verb1 a: to bring to destruction â€â€used chiefly in passive construction <the ship was lost on the reef> b: damn <if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul  Matthew 16:26(Authorized Version)>2: to miss from one's possession or from a customary or supposed place

By restrain I mean that he held back certain attributes on his own accord, such as omnipotence. But even then omnipotence was demonstrated in many of his miracles. Jesus is omnipotent, but in becoming a man he held that back. In the garden of Gethsemane he knew what was coming and he could have escaped. He let them take him to be crucified.

Imagican said:
And WHAT is "Unitarian''?
Main Entry:
uni·tar·i·an Listen to the pronunciation of unitarian
Pronunciation:
\ˌyü-nə-ˈter-ē-ən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
New Latin unitarius, from Latin unitas unity
Date:
1687

1a often capitalized : one who believes that the deity exists only in one person

Imagican said:
Now, can God DIE? Is it POSSIBLE for God to PHYSICALLY DIE. Or is it EVEN possible for God to 'take on' the FLESH. For we have been TOLD that the FLESH is 'something' that God WON'T even LOOK UPON.
Philippians 2:5-8(NASB)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


Imagican said:
The 'Bible' PLAINLY states that NO MAN has EVER 'seen' God. Yet YOU would have me BELIEVE that Jesus WAS God. Hmmmmmmmmm.........

John 14:8-10(NASB)
Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 1:1-4(NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Would you be willing to tell everyone here that you flat out deny the deity of Jesus Christ?
 
6640 said:
Jesus never lost His power as God when was incarnate as a man. It seems that some have a mixed up idea of Jesus. Let me ask you something, How close can you be to infinite? The answer is, Not anything at all anywhere near infinite. Any finite thing is infinitely smaller than that which is infinite. therefor Jesus could not be "almost God" or very close. You either are God or you are not. I'm a trinitarian and a unitarian. God is one but also three. Now back to my first point, Jesus never lost any of his power in becoming a man. Never forget that he took that nature upon himself. God already knew what it was like to be a man, he is omniscient. Jesus simply restrained certain attributes in order to take on the nature of a man. None of God's attributes are greater than any other, they are simply manifest more clearly to us at certain times. If Jesus was not fully God and fully man then it would not be possible for him to atone for our sins. If you can't believe Jesus could come down to earth as God on his own will, lay down his life, and take it back up again; how can you believe he has the power to bare your sins?

hallelujahicon98.gif
 
Alabaster,

I OPENLY confess that Jesus IS The Christ. That He IS the Son of God. That God IS His Father. That is what I have been TOLD and that is WHAT i BELIEVE.

That there IS deity in the personage of Christ is without QUESTION. But EVEN Christ HIMSELF stated that the 'FATHER is GREATER than HE'. And we KNOW from scripture that the Father IS God Himself. That 'some' choose to incorporate Christ INTO God Himself does NOT negate what has been offered in scripture. If I am YOUR emissary, then those that have SEEN ME have SEEN YOUR representative. But even YOU have OPENLY admitted that Christ is NOT the Father. Yet you use a 'statment' that when MISUNDERSTOOD can ONLY be offering that Christ IS The Father. You CAN'T have it BOTH WAYS. Either Christ is The Son, or He is NOT. Either Christ is the Son and NOT the Father or SOMEHOW He is BOTH. This would utterly negate the offerings of SEPARATE IDENTITY COMPLETELY, or there is ANOTHER UNDERSTANDING. And I believe that the understanding that I have offered is MUCH SIMPLER to accept and understand than one in which God is a mere FIGURATIVE entity that is ABLE to BE confined by the limited understanding of MEN.

God IS The Father. God IS the ONE whose GLORY cannot be beheld by the likes of human flesh. There were MANY that have bore witness of Christ. That He was INDEED a 'man' in the Flesh. That He walked and talked and ate and slept JUST AS ANY OTHER MAN. And this was a SEPARATE entity from The Father who IS GOD HIMSELF. And WHILE Christ WALKED this earth, His Father; God was STILL in heaven looking down upon His Son. For otherwise, the witness that we have been offered is INCOMPLETE and INACCURATE. For Christ CONTINUALLY offered PRAYER to His Father and HIS GOD; OUR GOD.

MEC
 
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