Christ IN The Flesh............

[Veritas]

I just posted this in the Christian advice section... but it looks like it might fit here too. I think this is a fantastic dissertation on the importance of an understanding of the trinity:
http://www.rzim.org/resources/jttran.php?seqid=119

 

[Imagican]

Due to the direction in which this thread has taken, I will no longer be responding to replies that involve 'trinity'.

I will offer this to defend my position on the TOPIC of the thread and then I'm 'done with it':

[26] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

[28] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
[38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
[40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
[41] Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


[42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

i don't remember now, but I believe that all these were taken from the Gospel of John. I don't know if it was my computer or something wrong with the forums, but I was unable to access the website for a couple of days and due to this was unable to finish what I started uninterupted.

But note that the above statements are MADE by Christ. In these statements it would take MUCH effort for ANYONE reading them to NOT understand that Christ IN the Flesh WAS 'ABLE' to learn. Not only when present here in the Flesh, but when present with His Father in Heaven. He references that WE have learned from OUR earthly fathers, and HE HAS learned from His Heavenly Father. This is quite clear and the basis for my offering this thread to START with. Not a discussion on 'trinity', but on the 'fully MAN' part of Christ which EVEN this 'doctrine of trinity' OFFERS in understanding if one READS and UNDERSTANDS 'what' trinity IS.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Alabaster]

Wasn't Jesus the epitome of subjection to God? I love Him! He is God, yet He came as Jesus in the flesh to show us how to obey.

People have to make it so complicated they rob themselves of the knowledge of the simplicity of the plan of God for us! It is shameful.

 

[6640]

Due to the direction in which this thread has taken, I will no longer be responding to replies that involve 'trinity'.

I will offer this to defend my position on the TOPIC of the thread and then I'm 'done with it':

[26] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

[28] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
[38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
[40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
[41] Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


[42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

i don't remember now, but I believe that all these were taken from the Gospel of John. I don't know if it was my computer or something wrong with the forums, but I was unable to access the website for a couple of days and due to this was unable to finish what I started uninterupted.

But note that the above statements are MADE by Christ. In these statements it would take MUCH effort for ANYONE reading them to NOT understand that Christ IN the Flesh WAS 'ABLE' to learn. Not only when present here in the Flesh, but when present with His Father in Heaven. He references that WE have learned from OUR earthly fathers, and HE HAS learned from His Heavenly Father. This is quite clear and the basis for my offering this thread to START with. Not a discussion on 'trinity', but on the 'fully MAN' part of Christ which EVEN this 'doctrine of trinity' OFFERS in understanding if one READS and UNDERSTANDS 'what' trinity IS.

Blessings,

MEC

[42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

I think if you read the full chapter 8 of the book of John you will find an interesting statement in verse 58 that made everyone very angry to the point of trying to stone Jesus.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
Why did they want to stone him? When he said, I AM, he was saying the same thing God said to Moses at the burning bush. What that name means is, I am the one who is, or The self existent one. You are having a major misconception of what it means when we say that Jesus is fully God. Jesus is completely God by nature, but he is not the same person as the father.
This site has a full scriptural look at the attacks on the deity of Jesus.
http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnessing/de ... christ.htm
I would also like to look at who many of the cults and various religions that have a basis in the denial of the deity of Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, The Way International, Christadelphians, Unitarians, And Islam. Let's look at the fruits of some of those groups who deny the deity of Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses are just plain annoying, they are always coming to your door. They also have a very large falloff rate, people just give it up a lot. Mormons are involved in polygamy and have added to the bible. Islam is obvious, there are many terrible practices there. To list a few, many in certain countries will kill even their children who convert to any other religion. I think that if they truly believe the Koran, suicide bombing would be a sensible thing to do. Not all people involved in these groups get in to such sinful practices. but the fundamental ones, who are firmly grounded in their false doctrines(a major one is the denial of the deity of Jesus) will have a great tendency to produce very bad, rotten fruit. And Matthew 7:15-17 says,

15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapesare not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
I see many bad fruits from groups who deny the deity of Jesus.

 

[wavy]

Jesus PUT ON FLESH and many of the limitations of flesh voluntarily, but NOWHERE has Jesus EVER declared He did not have all knowledge!
[/b]

this erroneous claim is refuted by a simple review of synoptic material (see mk v.30, xiii.32; mt xxiv.36; lk ii.52). only the johannine gospel (often conflicting with the synoptics) states that jesus knew 'all things' (jn xvi.30, xxi.17).


~eric

 

[wavy]

Islam...in certain countries will kill even their children who convert to any other religion.

it's very odd how yahweh prescribes the same thing in the bible...(see deut xiii.6-16)


~eric

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus PUT ON FLESH and many of the limitations of flesh voluntarily, but NOWHERE has Jesus EVER declared He did not have all knowledge!
[/b]

this erroneous claim is refuted by a simple review of synoptic material (see mk v.30, xiii.32; mt xxiv.36; lk ii.52). only the johannine gospel (often conflicting with the synoptics) states that jesus knew 'all things' (jn xvi.30, xxi.17).


~eric

It is not erroneous. Why would an imperfect man be allowed to take all our sin? No--He was perfect because He was and is part of the triune Godhead. ALL SCRIPTURE attests to that fact.

Any dispute of Jesus' deity is simply indicative that there is a lack of knowledge of and relationship with Him. Very sad.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Alibaster,

I'm not sure I would equate not knowing all, to not being perfect. Nor would I question His deity if He claimed to not know all. After all, He did say this:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (NKJV)

Just as I cannot deny His deity, neither can I deny scripture.

 

[Alabaster]

Hi Alibaster,

I'm not sure I would equate not knowing all, to not being perfect. Nor would I question His deity if He claimed to not know all. After all, He did say this:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (NKJV)

Just as I cannot deny His deity, neither can I deny scripture.

Jesus had submitted that knowledge to the Father. I don't have a problem with it. It certainly doesn't take away from His omniscience! I am sure that the glorified Jesus knows, but in the flesh, He reserved rights to the Father as any son would do who loved and respected his father..

I Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Imagican]

Jesus PUT ON FLESH and many of the limitations of flesh voluntarily, but NOWHERE has Jesus EVER declared He did not have all knowledge!
[/b]

this erroneous claim is refuted by a simple review of synoptic material (see mk v.30, xiii.32; mt xxiv.36; lk ii.52). only the johannine gospel (often conflicting with the synoptics) states that jesus knew 'all things' (jn xvi.30, xxi.17).


~eric

It is not erroneous. Why would an imperfect man be allowed to take all our sin? No--He was perfect because He was and is part of the triune Godhead. ALL SCRIPTURE attests to that fact.

Christ was NOT: ONLY MAN, Christ IS The Son of God. The ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God. You have MIS-PERCIEVED what I have offered. But we weren't TALKING about 'perfection'. WHAT Christ KNOWS is 'perfect' in His understanding. And ALL I have offered is that Christ HIMSELF stated that He did NOT KNOW 'all things'. Nor was ALL knowledge even GIVEN to Him. What Christ DID KNOW was 'perfect in His understanding' for it was GIVEN Him BY The Father.

But this doesn't even offer answer to your question. You asked, "Why would an imperfect man be allowed to take all our sin?" I don't know WHERE you came up with this. God CHOSE for His Son to DIE for the sins of this World. NOT YOU, NOR ME, or any other METHOD. And that is NOT for us to question but to accept and BELIEVE. But what we have been offered so far as PERFECTION is that Christ was UNBLEMISHED BY SIN. That DOESN'T make ANY indication whatsoever that He was PERFECT in the respect that YOU would indicate.

The most brilliant man on this planet STILL had to LEARN how acknowledge his brilliance. Still had to learn to READ and WRITE, mathematics, etc...................

My point of this WHOLE thread was to PLAINLY show that Christ INDEED WAS 'fully man'. Regardless of DEITY, (which was NEVER an issue to begin with other than 'my words' being twisted around), He was STILL, (even according to trinitarian doctrine), FULLY man. Otherwise IF HE WASN'T 'fully man', YOU TELL US: how could He DIE for ALL of the sin of MANkind?

Any dispute of Jesus' deity is simply indicative that there is a lack of knowledge of and relationship with Him. Very sad.

I have been on these forums for a pretty good while. There are some that have been here longer than I and can ATTEST to the FACT that I have NEVER offered DENIAL of the 'deity' of Christ. That I understand it to be 'different' than many have been taught or 'come to believe' does NOT negate or SHOW that I have denied ANYTHING that is 'scriptural' or 'inspired'. But what ONE may INTERPRET does NOT dictate that another will DO THE SAME. If that were the case, we'd ALL be Catholic, (NOT A REFERENCE TO ANYTHING BUT THE OLDEST SURVIVING 'church' claiming Christianity ON THE PLANET). There would BE NO 'denominations' if there were NO DIFFERENCES in 'understanding' or 'interpretation'.

You continually offer JUDGEMENT of those that DON'T 'agree' with YOU. Not ONLY judgement pertaining to IGNORANCE, but an INDICATED 'judgement' of a LACK of communion with God or His Son. Now THAT is about as FAR from what we have been taught as ANYTHING concerning UNDERSTANDING of doctrine that has been offered.

What's SAD is that 'some' would INSIST that 'their way' is the ONLY 'way'. In complete igorance of the FACT that God offers as HE deems FIT. Not the OTHER WAY AROUND.

Let me ask you Alabaster, WHAT denomination do YOU subscribe to that would TEACH you that one MUST 'believe' as YOU or they are LACKING in a TRUE relationship with God through His Son?

And WHAT Bible are YOU reading that offers that Christ is ALL KNOWING?

I see that you IGNORED my post with scriptural evidence of Christ LEARNING FROM the Father in favor of a 'personal' Revelation that these words mean NOTHING compared to YOUR understanding.

MEC

 

[Alabaster]

My point of this WHOLE thread was to PLAINLY show that Christ INDEED WAS 'fully man'.

Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God. You don't have to actually undertsand it, but you do have to believe it.

 

[Scott1]

What's SAD is that 'some' would INSIST that 'their way' is the ONLY 'way'. In complete igorance of the FACT that God offers as HE deems FIT. Not the OTHER WAY AROUND.

Sad to see the entire Gospel confined to the space between the ears of an individual.

Welcome to my world!

 

[Alabaster]

What's SAD is that 'some' would INSIST that 'their way' is the ONLY 'way'. In complete igorance of the FACT that God offers as HE deems FIT. Not the OTHER WAY AROUND.

JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY!

John 14:6
Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.


Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

 

[6640]

Imagican I wanted you to know, I'm not sure of everyone else, but I am praying for you. This is a vitally essential doctrine that you need to come to grips with. It is clear that you created this thread to prove he was fully man. But I would ask why? I want you to see the truth of who the lord Jesus Christ is. Sometimes we use too many words in our worship to God. Can't you ever just fall on your face and simply marvel at his Beauty? His majesty? His grace, mercy, love, omnipotence, greatness, goodness,transcendence, holiness, and terrible, frightening, awesomeness? You need to lay down your intellectual problems with his full deity and humanity. Accept that God can have both if he so chooses. Jesus cast aside his crowns of glory to come down to earth. He willingly submitted all of his glory. I would be nervous If I suddenly thought I could explain exactly what my Lord did on that cross. This is from an old hymn called, "and can it be".
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
I don't think Wesley was necessarily asking God how it could be; but rather, he was in total, indescribable awe. It is simply incomprehensible, but you can get a grasp of it if you accept what the bible says.

 

[Imagican]

Imagican I wanted you to know, I'm not sure of everyone else, but I am praying for you. This is a vitally essential doctrine that you need to come to grips with. It is clear that you created this thread to prove he was fully man. But I would ask why? I want you to see the truth of who the lord Jesus Christ is. Sometimes we use too many words in our worship to God. Can't you ever just fall on your face and simply marvel at his Beauty? His majesty? His grace, mercy, love, omnipotence, greatness, goodness,transcendence, holiness, and terrible, frightening, awesomeness? You need to lay down your intellectual problems with his full deity and humanity. Accept that God can have both if he so chooses. Jesus cast aside his crowns of glory to come down to earth. He willingly submitted all of his glory. I would be nervous If I suddenly thought I could explain exactly what my Lord did on that cross. This is from an old hymn called, "and can it be".
Amazing love! How can it be,
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
I don't think Wesley was necessarily asking God how it could be; but rather, he was in total, indescribable awe. It is simply incomprehensible, but you can get a grasp of it if you accept what the bible says.

NO, I created this thread to discuss the ISSUE of Christ 'being MAN as well'. There IS a 'difference'. The thread CERTAINLY got 'side tracked' into a discussion that was LED by some into the direction that NONE of what I offered was VALID due to the BELIEF that Jesus IS God. In TOTAL disregard for ALL that we have been offered concerning Him BEING 'in the Flesh'. Subject to ALL the SAME emotions, pain, suffering, lonliness, LOVE, etc............. as ANY MAN. Otherwise, there would have been LITTLE NEED for Him to 'take on' the Flesh.

It was NOT my intention for it to be 'led' into a discussion of His DEITY, but His HUMANITY. That MANY are UNABLE to CLEARLY SEE this does NOT make it DIFFERENT than it actually IS.

Your prayers are appreciated but I don't believe that you NEED concern yourself for MY inability to UNDERSTAND. I have a fulfilling and fruitful relationship with GOD through His Son. I am NOT the 'UNBELIEVER' that MANY would attempt to label as such. FAR FROM IT MY FRIEND. Please don't confuse my 'understanding' as being 'short' or 'LACKING' in that I have FULLY accepted Christ AS MY SAVIOR and DO love God with as MUCH of my heart, mind and soul as I am ABLE.

And I find it TOTALLY amusing that my offerings that ARE totally scriptural have been ignored for the sake of the DIRECTION that SOME would INSIST that this topic MUST go instead of simply OFFERING REPLY to that which I have offered that DOES pertain to this TOPIC.

So, anyone that is willing to continue discussing the topic, by all means, let's DO SO. But I don't WISH to nor will I continue in this debate of 'the DEITY' of Christ. That is NOT the subject.

But feel free to offer a REPLY to the scripture that I offered if you wish. If not, I will assume that it's 'something' that there is little or NO understanding of nor a WISH of those present to HAVE an understanding of.

MEC

 

[Alabaster]

We are well aware of Jesus the man. That is the easy part the world can grasp. The difficult part is accepting Him as God. That is done by a spiritual revelation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[wavy]

It is not erroneous. Why would an imperfect man be allowed to take all our sin? No--He was perfect because He was and is part of the triune Godhead. ALL SCRIPTURE attests to that fact.

i was not aware that christian theology taught that 'perfection' requires omniscience...and your assertion was certainly erroneous for the simple fact that three of the four gospels which narrate events in jesus' life state or imply that jesus was not omniscient.

and there is no 'triune Godhead' mentioned anywhere in the bible.

Any dispute of Jesus' deity is simply indicative that there is a lack of knowledge of and relationship with Him. Very sad.

i am not disputing that the authors of the gospels or the rest of the new testament viewed jesus as some kind of deity. all four gospels depict jesus in some way as divine (whether because he exercised miraculous powers through god's authority or because he had inherent divinity as the 'son of god')...john's depicture is the most evolved. what i was exposing as your error was the fact that according to three gospels jesus explicitly stated that he lacked knowledged or is implicitly narrated as lacking knowledge. one who lacks knowledge is not omniscient. this stands in direct opposition to your claim that jesus is never depicted as being ignorant of something or stating that he was ignorant of something.


~eric

 

[Alabaster]

Jesus is God. He chose to submit to the Father knowing the date and time where He, the Messiah would return. He had more important purposes at that time. He didn't choose to avail Himself of that information--THEN.

In Glory, He is well aware of His time.

The statement He made does not attest to His Godly omniscience--but He possesses it all the same! He is One with the Father.

 

[Imagican]

We are well aware of Jesus the man. That is the easy part the world can grasp. The difficult part is accepting Him as God. That is done by a spiritual revelation of the Holy Spirit.

No, Alabaster, it MUST NOT BE DIFFICULT. For the MAJORITY of the Christian community has accepted Christ AS God for close to TWO THOUSAND YEARS NOW. It must not be TOO difficult.

And IF we are ALL aware of the 'humanity' of Christ, that is WHAT this topic was SUPPOSE to be about. Why do you insist upon a discussion that IGNORES the topic and focuses on 'something ELSE'.

Here, let me make this EASIER for you:

For the SAKE of this conversation, let us ALL 'assume' that Jesus IS God Himself. No more NEED to debate this issue. Now, EVEN WITH Jesus IS God, let us discuss Christ IN The Flesh.

My point of this was to get PAST the IGNORANCE of those that would place Him SO HIGH as to IGNORE or DENY His humanity.

Have ANY of you EVER traveled abroad? If so, then you have most CERTAINLY noticed that no matter WHERE it is that you traveled, things were DIFFERENT than what you were accustomed to.

Now, what must this EARTH have been like to a 'heavenly HOST' when 'taking on the Flesh'. It MUST have been DIFFERENT to experience LIFE in the Flesh. Being subject to PAIN, HUNGER, THIRST, just these rudimentary sensations that the Flesh IS subject to.

Does God THIRST, Hunger, Hurt? Were NOT talking about emotional sensations, but PHYSICAL.

Now THAT was the POINT of the THREAD. That some would insist that it MUST take on the tone of whether or not Christ was deity has NOT bearing on the FACT that Christ CAME in the Flesh. That is the MOST remarkable and significant ATTRIBUTE of the MAN Jesus Christ.

God is ABLE to DO 'anything'. He is able to BUILD or DESTROY anything. THAT is a 'given'. But Christ SUBMITTING to the Father and taking on the flesh WAS a monumental TASK. For even having NEVER previous experienced the 'life of mortal man', Both Father and Son were CERTAINLY aware of the frailties of men. The insecurities, lonliness, spiritual poverty, ect.......... And these were to be FACED by Christ 'in the Flesh'. And IF Christ were NOT subject to ALL that men are subject TO, then His visit here would have been for LITTLE gain. For as sin came INTO the world through ONE MAN, so too it needed to be OVERCOME by ONE MAN. And WITHOUT experiencing the SAME emotional and spiritual and PHYSICAL temptations and trials AS A MAN, Christ's overcoming of sin would have meant NOTHING. For God, IN HEAVEN, could just as easily defeated SIN before it ever rose it's ugly head.

Now, WHY would God NEED to come in the FLESH to defeat sin? IF He is ALL POWERFUL, then COULDN'T HE have 'done it a different WAY'? So OBVIOUSLY there is significance to Christ COMING in the FLESH. There was OBVIOUSLY a NEED for His PRESENCE here. For IF God COULD have 'freed us from sin' in OTHER WAYS, there was OBVIOUSLY a PURPOSE for Christ IN THE FLESH.

I BELIEVE that this PURPOSE was for Him to KNOW what WE HAVE to face. For Him to EXPERIENCE ACTUAL PHYSICAL LIFE. Yes, to overcome sin. But also to SIMPLY LIVE a 'MORTAL LIFE'. To PHYSICALLY SHARE this experience WITH US. For HOW else could He actually PRESENT an 'example' if He were simply an 'entity in heaven'. For GOD IS able to PERFORM ANY DEED that He so chooses. But the SON came IN THE FLESH, to BE 'like US'. To SHOW US that WE TOO are ABLE to overcome sin THROUGH Him.

This is the TOPIC of the thread and I find it difficult to BELIEVE that NO ONE is 'stepping in here' to cease this direction that it is continually being TAKEN, (NOT BY ME).

MEC

 

[Alabaster]

We are well aware of Jesus the man. That is the easy part the world can grasp. The difficult part is accepting Him as God. That is done by a spiritual revelation of the Holy Spirit.

No, Alabaster, it MUST NOT BE DIFFICULT. For the MAJORITY of the Christian community has accepted Christ AS God for close to TWO THOUSAND YEARS NOW. It must not be TOO difficult.

Please note--I said "the world"--not Christians.

We do not deny His humanity. It is because of it, that we are able to know God. Methinks you are complicating the whole issue of Jesus being God incarnate. Totally man yet totally God.