Christ is the Rock...not Peter - Here we go again!

[ChristineES]

Goodness gracious,Mutzrein! Peter did not become a Christian for saying "the right words" as you seem to think I said. He became a Christian when he accepted that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God. We all know that he meant those words, as we know his history in the Gospels and in Acts, and his epistles!
I was just saying is that Simon Peter was the first person to acknowledge it that is the first Christian.

 

[thessalonian]

You are being a bit deceitful here. Jesus did not use the same word that is translated "rock" in this passage. He used two different words!

No, I am not being decietful here. You are speaking of the greek, where it is written "thou are petros and on this petra I will build my Church". Here is the problem, it is quite certain that Jesus did not speak greek. It is quite certain especially in this passage that he spoke aaramaic. In Aaramic there is only one word which translates rock.. That is petra. In Aaramic there is no gendering of the words. However in Greek there is. Thus instead of calling peter petra, feminine, like calling him virginia, linda, victoria, etc. he was called petros in the translation. Petros generally means rock in Greek. Only in some poetry can it be shown that it means pebble.

The church is built upon the rock solid foundation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I know you have already said you agree with this, but why must you make this passage say something it doesn't? Peter was but a small peeble, but Jesus is that huge rock that our faith is built on.By the way, have you had an opportunity to study that passage in the other thread I posted (the $10,000 challenge thread)?

I agree that Jesus is the rock. As I said above your pebble arguement does not hold water. Jesus spoke aaramaic. There is no such distinction as you make in aaramaic. The aaramic would be "thou art Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my church". One word was spoken. There was no other word. We know that Kepha was used because in John 1:42 and a few other places Peter is called Cephas which is a form of Kepha. Sorry but you are incorrect.

Blessings though

 

[thessalonian]

Peter was the first human to say that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God. Rock just meant he was the first Christian and the was the first member (after Jesus) of the Church that is what all true Christians make today.
Jesus is the solid Rock that is our foundation

Christine, I do agree with you that Jesus is the rock and the foundation of the Church. Is Jesus the only foundation or should I say is it contradictory to call anyone or anything else the foundation? Tell me, what or who is the pillar and support of the truth? Thanks in advance for your answers.

Christine, Pleas answer my question in the post quoted here directly. Thanks.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian,

You are teaching Catholic Doctrine here. :-?

Peter is not the Rock that the church is based on, Jesus is! Catholics love to take saints and gloify them instead of the "Word" of God. :-?

.

Relic,

I find it very sad that Protestants have to create such falacious dichotomies. The Catholic Church doesn't glorify the word of God? You have to be kidding. The Mass is primarily straight out of the Bible. 60% or more of it is taken straight from scripture. Read our catechism and Dei Verbum on the scriptures. I can show you many other writings that show what high regard we hold scripture. Why is it that in glorifying one thing we are not glorifying another. This is very poor logic if you pick up any logic book.

As for glorifying saints, no we don't do that, God does.

Rom.8

1. [17] and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
2. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

How can we glorify men. He has the power to do this. Not us. But we can recognize it and give glory to him for it. We can see the great things that he has done in and through his saints and this is a good thing. Mary's says her sould magnifies the lord. Peter was given truth from above. Paul did great deeds. All of this by the grace of God. I know you have this bias against thinking about these people and considering their lives. But it is what we are commanded to do.


Hebrews 13 [Context] [Commentary]
7. Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

To examine the lives of those who lived for Christ, followed him, practicint heroic virtue and doing great things in his name, caring for the sich and the poor, etc. is glorifying God and glorifying the word of God working within the hearts and minds of those who love him. There is no dichotomy here at all as you ahve laid out. It is a beautiful symphony.

 

[ChristineES]

Peter was the first human to say that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God. Rock just meant he was the first Christian and the was the first member (after Jesus) of the Church that is what all true Christians make today.
Jesus is the solid Rock that is our foundation

Christine, I do agree with you that Jesus is the rock and the foundation of the Church. Is Jesus the only foundation or should I say is it contradictory to call anyone or anything else the foundation? Tell me, what or who is the pillar and support of the truth? Thanks in advance for your answers.

Christine, Pleas answer my question in the post quoted here directly. Thanks.

I don't think Peter was the foundation, Jesus, God are the Foundation. He was just the first member of the Church. Calling him Peter was an analogy to state that he is and was the first Christian. Jesus was the foundation and Peter the first "rock" for the "church building" which is made up of all true Christians starting with him until the present and future.
If that is not what you are asking me, please elaborate.

 

[mutzrein]

Goodness gracious,Mutzrein! Peter did not become a Christian for saying "the right words" as you seem to think I said. He became a Christian when he accepted that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God. We all know that he meant those words, as we know his history in the Gospels and in Acts, and his epistles!
I was just saying is that Simon Peter was the first person to acknowledge it that is the first Christian.

Let's put it this way. Peter was chosen. You and I are chosen. We don't say 'Jesus is the only begotten son of God', in order to be chosen. The choosing is God's prerogative. The words we speak confirm the work of God within our hearts. We don't speak them in order that the work take place.

And that is why many are putting the cart before the horse. They take the example of Peter and intellectualise it, saying, "if you acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God, you are saved." The 'saving' allows one to acknowledge who Jesus is, not the other way around.

Perhaps I should ask you, how you believe one becomes a Christian. Do you have to acknowledge that you are a sinner? Do you have to believe that Christ died for your sins? Do you have to ask God for forgiveness and accept Jesus into your heart?

Or maybe we need to determine what a Christian is before we can say how to become one? What do you think?

Another point to consider - scripture tells us who the first 'Christians' were. And this was at Antioch - after pentecost.

 

[AVBunyan]

And that is why many are putting the cart before the horse.

Or maybe we need to determine what a Christian is before we can say how to become one? What do you think?

Another point to consider - scripture tells us who the first 'Christians' were. And this was at Antioch - after pentecost.

Nice post Mutzrein - people have funny ideas of what makes a Christian.

I'll say it again - folks today do not know how to be saved and that most "christians" today are still unregenerate. :o

God bless 8-)

 

[ChristineES]

And all this time I thought Christians were followers of Christ. Silly Me.
: :

 

[gingercat]

I'll say it again - folks today do not know how to be saved and that most "christians" today are still unregenerate.


end of quote:


I thought we are not supposed to say "most christians". :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[ChristineES]

I apologize for my last post and being sarcastic. :roll:

Just because Peter was not called a Christian does not mean he was not one. He did follow Christ, which in my view makes him a Jewish Christian or just a Christian. He was still a Jew, certainly, but.... Naw, I said what I wanted.

Except one more thing, by Jewish law, I am a Jew myself as my maternal grandmother was a Jew (not a practicing one) and I am a Christian, as I follow Christ.

God Bless You. Christ be with you.

 

[thessalonian]

Peter was the first human to say that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God. Rock just meant he was the first Christian and the was the first member (after Jesus) of the Church that is what all true Christians make today.
Jesus is the solid Rock that is our foundation

Christine, I do agree with you that Jesus is the rock and the foundation of the Church. Is Jesus the only foundation or should I say is it contradictory to call anyone or anything else the foundation? Tell me, what or who is the pillar and support of the truth? Thanks in advance for your answers.

Christine, Pleas answer my question in the post quoted here directly. Thanks.

I don't think Peter was the foundation, Jesus, God are the Foundation. He was just the first member of the Church. Calling him Peter was an analogy to state that he is and was the first Christian. Jesus was the foundation and Peter the first "rock" for the "church building" which is made up of all true Christians starting with him until the present and future.
If that is not what you are asking me, please elaborate.

That is what I am asking. So it would be wrong to say that prophets and apostles are the foundation????

Blessings

 

[ChristineES]

Peter was the first human to say that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God. Rock just meant he was the first Christian and the was the first member (after Jesus) of the Church that is what all true Christians make today.
Jesus is the solid Rock that is our foundation

Christine, I do agree with you that Jesus is the rock and the foundation of the Church. Is Jesus the only foundation or should I say is it contradictory to call anyone or anything else the foundation? Tell me, what or who is the pillar and support of the truth? Thanks in advance for your answers.

Christine, Pleas answer my question in the post quoted here directly. Thanks.

I don't think Peter was the foundation, Jesus, God are the Foundation. He was just the first member of the Church. Calling him Peter was an analogy to state that he is and was the first Christian. Jesus was the foundation and Peter the first "rock" for the "church building" which is made up of all true Christians starting with him until the present and future.
If that is not what you are asking me, please elaborate.

That is what I am asking. So it would be wrong to say that prophets and apostles are the foundation????

Blessings

Incorrect, yes (from what I was taught); wrong? I could not say. Some things are for God to decide.

 

[SpiritualSon]

Volumes have been written on this subject (Matt. 16:18).

My interpretation of Matt 16:18

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, (he is pointing to Peter)
and upon this rock (Christ is pointing or referencing himself) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now where do I get his? Well, forget history and tradition – what saith the scriptures?

Peter is a stone - John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Christ is “this rock.â€Â…

1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Deu 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Life can be so simple when you have a bible you can believe without questioning what it says.

God bless

You are right.

Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any Isaiah 44:8.

1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

These two verse means that Jesus Christ was the Father in the flesh, and still is. The Divine Trinity is in Him. We all have a trinity in us, which is the soul, body and spirit. The Soul, Body and Spirit in Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His Trinity is Divine, the God-Head, as in Paul; our trinity is human. The Father of the Son is not a Person, but the Soul of the Son, as in John 14:9, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Plain and simple, Jesus Christ is the Father, and that we should look to Him only.

Harry :fadein:

 

[ChristineES]

Volumes have been written on t


These two verse means that Jesus Christ was the Father in the flesh, and still is. The Divine Trinity is in Him. We all have a trinity in us, which is the soul, body and spirit. The Soul, Body and Spirit in Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His Trinity is Divine, the God-Head, as in Paul; our trinity is human. The Father of the Son is not a Person, but the Soul of the Son, as in John 14:9, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Plain and simple, Jesus Christ is the Father, and that we should look to Him only.

Harry :fadein:

Amen to that. Well said, Spiritual Son.

 

[SpiritualSon]

Volumes have been written on t


These two verse means that Jesus Christ was the Father in the flesh, and still is. The Divine Trinity is in Him. We all have a trinity in us, which is the soul, body and spirit. The Soul, Body and Spirit in Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His Trinity is Divine, the God-Head, as in Paul; our trinity is human. The Father of the Son is not a Person, but the Soul of the Son, as in John 14:9, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Plain and simple, Jesus Christ is the Father, and that we should look to Him only.
Harry :fadein:

Amen to that. Well said, Spiritual Son.

Thank you ChristineES. I am happy you see the truth. The word seeing means understanding. The eyes corresponds to understanding. Thank you again.

Harry :smt045

 

[ChristineES]

Volumes have been written on t


These two verse means that Jesus Christ was the Father in the flesh, and still is. The Divine Trinity is in Him. We all have a trinity in us, which is the soul, body and spirit. The Soul, Body and Spirit in Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His Trinity is Divine, the God-Head, as in Paul; our trinity is human. The Father of the Son is not a Person, but the Soul of the Son, as in John 14:9, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Plain and simple, Jesus Christ is the Father, and that we should look to Him only.
Harry :fadein:

Amen to that. Well said, Spiritual Son.

Thank you ChristineES. I am happy you see the truth. The word seeing means understanding. The eyes corresponds to understanding. Thank you again.

Harry :smt045

One day while I was thinking about the Trinity, it came to me that as humans we have a mind( or Soul, as you put it), a body and a spiritl. I also remembered that we were made in God's image. If we have those things, then God would too. So I thought perhaps that God, The Father was The Mind of God, that Jesus, The Son, was The Body (or Word) of God, and Holy Spirit was the Spirit of God.
Your post is the first time I ever read or heard anything that ever said that. God is one. Each person is one. People cannot separate their bodies from their minds, but God can, after all, He is God. In that way, Jesus is God, The Father is the Mind (what you called Soul, it means the same thing) and is God and the Holy Spirit is God. I wrote this also on another thread. (about what the name of Holy Spirit.)

 

[mutzrein]

Volumes have been written on t


These two verse means that Jesus Christ was the Father in the flesh, and still is. The Divine Trinity is in Him. We all have a trinity in us, which is the soul, body and spirit. The Soul, Body and Spirit in Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His Trinity is Divine, the God-Head, as in Paul; our trinity is human. The Father of the Son is not a Person, but the Soul of the Son, as in John 14:9, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Plain and simple, Jesus Christ is the Father, and that we should look to Him only.
Harry :fadein:

Amen to that. Well said, Spiritual Son.

Thank you ChristineES. I am happy you see the truth. The word seeing means understanding. The eyes corresponds to understanding. Thank you again.

Harry :smt045

One day while I was thinking about the Trinity, it came to me that as humans we have a mind( or Soul, as you put it), a body and a spiritl. I also remembered that we were made in God's image. If we have those things, then God would too. So I thought perhaps that God, The Father was The Mind of God, that Jesus, The Son, was The Body (or Word) of God, and Holy Spirit was the Spirit of God.
Your post is the first time I ever read or heard anything that ever said that. God is one. Each person is one. People cannot separate their bodies from their minds, but God can, after all, He is God. In that way, Jesus is God, The Father is the Mind (what you called Soul, it means the same thing) and is God and the Holy Spirit is God. I wrote this also on another thread. (about what the name of Holy Spirit.)

The Father is not the mind of God, neither is my mind me.
Jesus is the son of God, but my son is not me.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God since God is Spirit. But my spirit is not me.

 

[ChristineES]

[quote="AVBunyan":bd9ef]Volumes have been written on t


These two verse means that Jesus Christ was the Father in the flesh, and still is. The Divine Trinity is in Him. We all have a trinity in us, which is the soul, body and spirit. The Soul, Body and Spirit in Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His Trinity is Divine, the God-Head, as in Paul; our trinity is human. The Father of the Son is not a Person, but the Soul of the Son, as in John 14:9, "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father." Plain and simple, Jesus Christ is the Father, and that we should look to Him only.
Harry :fadein:

Amen to that. Well said, Spiritual Son.

Thank you ChristineES. I am happy you see the truth. The word seeing means understanding. The eyes corresponds to understanding. Thank you again.

Harry :smt045

One day while I was thinking about the Trinity, it came to me that as humans we have a mind( or Soul, as you put it), a body and a spiritual. I also remembered that we were made in God's image. If we have those things, then God would too. So I thought perhaps that God, The Father was The Mind of God, that Jesus, The Son, was The Body (or Word) of God, and Holy Spirit was the Spirit of God.
Your post is the first time I ever read or heard anything that ever said that. God is one. Each person is one. People cannot separate their bodies from their minds, but God can, after all, He is God. In that way, Jesus is God, The Father is the Mind (what you called Soul, it means the same thing) and is God and the Holy Spirit is God. I wrote this also on another thread. (about what the name of Holy Spirit.)

The Father is not the mind of God, neither is my mind me.
Jesus is the son of God, but my son is not me.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God since God is Spirit. But my spirit is not me.

[/quote:bd9ef]

Is your mind,your body and your spirit someone else?? :D Just kidding.

You don't have to agree with what I said, I just thought I would write about what I came up with while thinking about the Trinity. I know there are actually some Christians out there who don't believe in The Trinity, I have seen all the threads on all the boards I belong to on it. I believe in the Trinity, however,and I thought that most Christians did believe in it, until I came to these boards and I found out I was wrong. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the Trinity, I don't think the SDA do either (if I am wrong about that, I apologize).
But I am confused, you know what I believe, but I don't know what you believe. Jesus was God, we agree on that, when He was born, do you believe that it was all of God that was born? There are few demoninations that believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel, these denominations are the ones that I avoid. Maybe you can let me know what you believe, either on this board or you can PM me. I am very interested

 

[thessalonian]

[quote="ChristineES":67da6]Peter was the first human to say that Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God. Rock just meant he was the first Christian and the was the first member (after Jesus) of the Church that is what all true Christians make today.
Jesus is the solid Rock that is our foundation

Christine, I do agree with you that Jesus is the rock and the foundation of the Church. Is Jesus the only foundation or should I say is it contradictory to call anyone or anything else the foundation? Tell me, what or who is the pillar and support of the truth? Thanks in advance for your answers.

Christine, Pleas answer my question in the post quoted here directly. Thanks.

I don't think Peter was the foundation, Jesus, God are the Foundation. He was just the first member of the Church. Calling him Peter was an analogy to state that he is and was the first Christian. Jesus was the foundation and Peter the first "rock" for the "church building" which is made up of all true Christians starting with him until the present and future.
If that is not what you are asking me, please elaborate.

That is what I am asking. So it would be wrong to say that prophets and apostles are the foundation????

Blessings

Incorrect, yes (from what I was taught); wrong? I could not say. Some things are for God to decide.[/quote:67da6]

There's a problem then with your understanding. Because Paul tells us it is not incorrect or wrong and it has already been decided.


Eph 2:20.
[19] So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
[20] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

So in 1 Cor 3:11 we are told that Jesus is the one foundation. Here we are told that prophets and apostles are. Contradition? No. I don't think so. You see, we are told that God works in and through us.

[20]

Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

Paul tells us that it is "not I who lives but Christ lives in me.". Christ is said to be the light of the world and Christians are to be the light of the world. We are the body of Christ. Is it coming together for you. You see, Christ's works through man. So apostles and prophets being the foundation is the same as Christ being the foundation just as Christ being the light of the world is the same as Christians being the light of the world. It is all by his grace working in them that they are the light of the world. It is all by his grace that they are the foundation. Likewise there is no reasonable reason why Peter could not be the rock, simply because Christ is the rock. There is a great depth and richness you are missing in your protestant teaching.

Tell me, what or who is the pillar and support of the truth. :-D

 

[thessalonian]

Christine

I don't think Peter was the foundation, Jesus, God are the Foundation. He was just the first member of the Church. Calling him Peter was an analogy to state that he is and was the first Christian. Jesus was the foundation and Peter the first "rock" for the "church building" which is made up of all true Christians starting with him until the present and future.
If that is not what you are asking me, please eorate.

I see some more problems here. Peter was just another member of the Church? Did you know that of the twelve apostles Peter is mentioned far more than any other? 190 to about 30 for John the beloved. Peter is mentioned first in all but one as I recall listings of Apostles. Peter walks on water as Christ walked on water. Jesus preaches from Peter's boat. Peter is said to be first even though, contrary to what you say Andrew was the first Apostle called by Christ. When the twelve are asked a question Peter is always the one to respond. Peter converts the first gentile. Peter raises the dead as Jesus did. Jesus prayed for Peter singularly before he was crucified, saying that Peter would stengthen the others and bring them back. Jesus tells Peter alone to feed the sheep. Peter is the only one mentioned as recieving the keys. There is alot more you miss in that passage for you protestant pastors will miss the obvious ties to Is 22:22-24. Much more I could say about Peter. He obviously was a leader of the early Church.