Christ is the Rock...not Peter - Here we go again!

[Relic]

Oh oh,

now, what are you going to do if Gary is telling the truth thess? Are you going to keep denying them?

And that 4 Part Article written by Dan Curry. :-?


I was raised Catholic, and well over 30 years ago (while in my early 20's, actually, starting when I was 18 or 19, somewhere around that time) , I became free of the deceptions and rituals they practice. And Not only does Gary know that I truly respect all that he brings forth to expose the perverseness and falsehoods about the popes, and the Catholic catechism and doctrines, but also, I have no doubt Gary knows of these Early Church Fathers of which Dan Curry presents as examples of proof that they did not imply Peter as being "the rock", but that indeed, the Rock IS Christ.

However, for those of you who skipped over that article... Notice part 3 of that article in the previous post above, and....

Read what many of the Early Church Fathers (ECF's) had to say on the matter of Peter NOT being "this rock".




Early Church Fathers (ECF's) such as:

Augustine

Tertullian

Theodoret

Origen

St. John Chrysostom

Pope Leo the Great


They all speak quite clearly for themselves on the matter, as well as the scriptures which are presented throughout the whole article!

undeniably!

.

 

[gingercat]

I hope thess will open his heart to the whole truth instead of blindly trusting catholics.

 

[Disciple88]

There is a contrast here in Matt. 16:18. Peter or Cephas (Aram.) means small stone. Christ uses the word Petra which means foundation. So Matt. 16:18 in that part would be read like this, "you are (peter) a small stone and upon this foundation i will build my church." What foundation? Go to verse 16 where peter or small stone, says "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"

 

[Relic]

There is a contrast here in Matt. 16:18. Peter or Cephas (Aram.) means small stone. Christ uses the word Petra which means foundation. So Matt. 16:18 in that part would be read like this, "you are (peter) a small stone and upon this foundation i will build my church." What foundation? Go to verse 16 where peter or small stone, says "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"

There is no contrast. Did you not read Part 2 of the Article? :-?

It should clear up your confusion as to what is meant as being the foundation.... Christ .

.

Matthew 16:18: Peter is not "this rock"
By Dan Curry

PART 2

The Catholic church insists that the "rock" that Jesus refers to is Simon Peter, who they say was the first pope. They claim that when Christ gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom", He was giving him authority and leadership over the Church. My position is that the Catholic interpretation of this verse is a wrong interpretation.

Though not considered by many to be a valid arguement, due to the fact that Christ spoke in Aramaic, the examination of the Greek reveals this:
The "rock" which Christ refers to is what Peter said, namely, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." This truth is the basis of all Christianity. Furthermore, Christ calls Peter by name because the name Peter, in Greek (petros), means "a small rock cleaved from a larger rock". The word for "rock" in Greek is "petra". Peter is a smaller rock that comes from the larger rock, which is Christ. Critics argue that the Greek has two words for rock (Petra and Petros), but that the Aramaic has only one word for rock, and hence, this interpretation is not valid. So, the Greek reveals this word play but the word play is not based on the Greek. But having only one word only strengthens the effect of the word play. But regardless of the language used, there are other reasons for believing that this interpretation (that Christ is the Rock, and that Peter, and likewise all Christians holding the faith of Peter, are "smaller" rocks cleaved from the lager Rock, which is Christ).

First, notice the fact that Christ say, "YOU are Peter, and on THIS rock I will build my church." This denotes a "shift" of some sort. As I have shown by citing John, Christ has indeed used a play on words using the word "this", so to automatically rule out the notion that Christ is using a play on words in the Matthew passage would be to ingore the fact that it is used elsewhere by Christ Himself!

source: http://www.geocities.com/apologeticsrepo/R.../4Catholic.html



PART 3: continued in next post.

.

 

[Disciple88]

There is a contrast here in Matt. 16:18. Peter or Cephas (Aram.) means small stone. Christ uses the word Petra which means foundation. So Matt. 16:18 in that part would be read like this, "you are (peter) a small stone and upon this foundation i will build my church." What foundation? Go to verse 16 where peter or small stone, says "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"

There is no contrast. Did you not read Part 2 of the Article? :-?

It should clear up your confusion as to what is meant as being the foundation.... Christ .

.

Matthew 16:18: Peter is not "this rock"
By Dan Curry

PART 2

The Catholic church insists that the "rock" that Jesus refers to is Simon Peter, who they say was the first pope. They claim that when Christ gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom", He was giving him authority and leadership over the Church. My position is that the Catholic interpretation of this verse is a wrong interpretation.

Though not considered by many to be a valid arguement, due to the fact that Christ spoke in Aramaic, the examination of the Greek reveals this:
The "rock" which Christ refers to is what Peter said, namely, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." This truth is the basis of all Christianity. Furthermore, Christ calls Peter by name because the name Peter, in Greek (petros), means "a small rock cleaved from a larger rock". The word for "rock" in Greek is "petra". Peter is a smaller rock that comes from the larger rock, which is Christ. Critics argue that the Greek has two words for rock (Petra and Petros), but that the Aramaic has only one word for rock, and hence, this interpretation is not valid. So, the Greek reveals this word play but the word play is not based on the Greek. But having only one word only strengthens the effect of the word play. But regardless of the language used, there are other reasons for believing that this interpretation (that Christ is the Rock, and that Peter, and likewise all Christians holding the faith of Peter, are "smaller" rocks cleaved from the lager Rock, which is Christ).

First, notice the fact that Christ say, "YOU are Peter, and on THIS rock I will build my church." This denotes a "shift" of some sort. As I have shown by citing John, Christ has indeed used a play on words using the word "this", so to automatically rule out the notion that Christ is using a play on words in the Matthew passage would be to ingore the fact that it is used elsewhere by Christ Himself!

source: http://www.geocities.com/apologeticsrepo/R.../4Catholic.html



PART 3: continued in next post.

.

That does not makes sense, you cannot believe this based off of the english language. The bible was origanlly written in two languages, Greek and Hebrew. Petros is the use of Peter's name in greek, Petra is the use of the word "rock" which Christ said. Petros and Petra are two different words, so therefore there is a contrast. Christ does not say "you are 'Petros' and upon this 'Petros' i will build my Church." Petra was used for rock. Petra means-Foundation or Rockbed which is a foundation. Peter is not the foundation of the church. Christ was talking about the universal church, therefore peter is not the Foundation of the universal church. The Foundation of the universal church is faith in Christ that He is the Messiah. You must also remember that Christ is the Chief Cornerstone (Eph. 5:23 ) which a cornerstone is a foundation of a building. Act 4:11 refers Christ as the foundation just as 1 Cor 3:11 does as well.

 

[Relic]

:o That article does NOT agree with the Catholic's in their claims about Peter as being the rock (foundation) from wich the church is built. :roll:
I'm sorry if you misunderstood. Maybe you need to read the article from start to finish.

 

[AVBunyan]

That does not makes sense, you cannot believe this based off of the english language. The bible was origanlly written in two languages, Greek and Hebrew. Petros is the use of Peter's name in greek, Petra is the use of the word "rock" which Christ said.

So, you are saying the King James translators didn't see that? :o
Are you saying modern scholars are smarter than the King James translators? :o

God wanted what the King James translators to put there what He wzanted - if Rome doesn't like it then they can change their pagan religion to line up with the book.

If you want to destroy Rome then make them line up with a King James Bible for this book is their greatest enemy.

God bless

 

[SpiritualSon]

The stone of Israel (Gen. 49:24).
Jehovah my Rock, and my Redeemer (Ps. 19:14).
Jehovah God, my Rock, my fortress, the horn of my salvation, my Savior (2 Sam. 22:2, 3).

It shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God we have waited for Him, and He will save us; this is Jehovah, we have waited for Him; we will rejoice and be glad in His salvation Isaiah 25:9. Jesus was Jehovah God the Father in the flesh

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of Jehovah, make plain in the solitude a pathway for our God. For the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it. Behold the Lord Jehovah shall come in strength, and His arm shall rule for Him Isaiah 40:3, 5,10. This was preached by John the Baptize

I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another Isaiah 42:6,8. This means that no glory was given to Peter

Also the cornerstone which the builders rejected Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10-11; Luke 20:17-18).
That the cornerstone is the foundation stone, appears from Jeremiah 51:26. The Lord also in the Word in many places is called a "Rock," wherefore by the "Rock" He meant Himself, when He said:
Upon this rock I will build My church Matthew 16:18, 19;
And also when He said:
Whosoever heareth My words and doeth them, is compared to a prudent man who buildeth a house and layeth the foundation upon a rock (Luke 6:47-48; Matthew 7:24-25).

By "a rock" is signified the Lord as to the Divine Truth of the Word. All things of the church and of its doctrine relate to these two: that the Lord is to be approached immediately and that man must live a life according to the commandments of the Decalogue by shunning evils as sins; and that all things of doctrine relate to love to God, and to love towards the neighbor.

When the Lord, turning away from Peter, said to him, Get thee behind Me, Satan, thou art a stumbling-block unto Me; for thou savorest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men (Matthew 16:21-23).

Also when the Lord said to him, Simon, Simon, Behold Satan demanded you that he might sift you as wheat Luke 22:31. This has happen to the Catholic Church, when it believed that the keys and power was given to Peter and those after him. The Lord's church was made false, and He saw it before it happen. This was not done by the Apostles, but centuries after the apostles were gone, that the church was made false by the church fathers, believing they were given the keys, and that God is in three persons.

All these things have been cited to make known that "Peter" in the representative sense signifies in the Gospels truth from good, which is from the Lord; also faith from charity; and also in the contrary sense truth separated from good, which in itself is falsity; also faith separated from charity, which in itself is not faith.


Harry :fadein:

 

[Disciple88]

:o That article does NOT agree with the Catholic's in their claims about Peter as being the rock (foundation) from wich the church is built. :roll:
I'm sorry if you misunderstood. Maybe you need to read the article from start to finish.

I guess i did misunderstand.... because it looked like he was trying to say that Christ was still "pointing the Finger" at peter...

 

[Disciple88]

That does not makes sense, you cannot believe this based off of the english language. The bible was origanlly written in two languages, Greek and Hebrew. Petros is the use of Peter's name in greek, Petra is the use of the word "rock" which Christ said.

So, you are saying the King James translators didn't see that? :o
Are you saying modern scholars are smarter than the King James translators? :o

God wanted what the King James translators to put there what He wzanted - if Rome doesn't like it then they can change their pagan religion to line up with the book.

If you want to destroy Rome then make them line up with a King James Bible for this book is their greatest enemy.

God bless

What? What does that have to do with anything? The english language had to translate it in a way we could understand. People bend what the bible says with the english language cause the word Rock means Rock right? Well, they use the meaning of peter's name and then the actual word rock that was said by Jesus and bend the meaning. Their is nothing wrong with the KJ version....

 

[thessalonian]

Well, your own Roman Catholic "church" has accused and judged several popes of nepotism. :smt056 This is what they (the RCC) say about Pope Sixtus IV

Gary, apparently you don't read everything I post and like to twist a phrase from what I did post. I didn't once say there wasn't any nepotism going on. I never said there were no wrongs done by Popes. Some of them I will acknowledge. Some of what you post are lies and slander by which you broadbrush every pope as doing evil. I've given biblical reasons why it doesn't change my opinion of the truth of Catholic doctrine that some popes did evil. Did you read what I posted about luke 12. Evidently you are incapable of understanding it. You are incapable of having an honest, intellectual conversation about anything.

Looks like it is you Thessalonian who is the liar....

Back at you oh distorter of what I say.

 

[thessalonian]

I hope thess will open his heart to the whole truth instead of blindly trusting catholics.

Hun, you don't have a clue.

 

[gingercat]

I hope thess will open his heart to the whole truth instead of blindly trusting catholics.

Hun, you don't have a clue.

Then why are you dismissing the bad fruit of catholics that many people are showing it to you?

 

[thessalonian]

Relic,

You post such tripe because you and your author do not understand Catholicism. You make it out to be contradictory that Peter is the rock and Christ is the rock. I have been showing all along with Christian that this is a false dichotomy. As an example just as Christ is the only foundation and there is no other (1 Cor 3:11) and yet the scriptures tell us that prophets and apostles are the foundation (eph 2:11). This is no contradiction or dichotomy. For prophets and Apostles spoke and lived the word which was Christ and so Christ being the foundation and prophets and apostles being the foundation is one in the same.

Christians are said to be the light of the world. Yet Christ is the light of the world. No dichotomy here but I doudt you will be able to grasp it.

I saw a study on the ECF one time listing all the quotes where they said Peter was the Rock. All the quotes they said Jesus was the rock and all the quotes in which they said Peter's faith was the rock. Something very interesting could be seen. Either we have early church fathers contradicting themselves because several (including Augustine and I believe tertullian) had explicit quotes where they would say Christ was the rock and in another Peter was the Rock, or they were Catholic. Because the reality is that Catholicism does not limit Matt 16:18 to being only Peter as the rock. If you know anything about Catholic theology, which it is apparent what little you do know is not from a point of understanding, you know that we see multiple senses in scripture. The literal sense is first and foremost. From that sense it cannot, using good grammar, sentennce structure, and considering the language of the time, idoms, etc., other scriptures, come to the conclusion that Christ is speaking literlaly about any other rock other than Peter. It's nonsense. However there is also a spiritual or allegorical sense in which it can be seen that the faith that Peter has comes from Christ. That it is in fact Christ in him that brings about his conclusion that Jesus was the messiah, the son of God. That he speaks the word when he says this and that the word is Christ as John tells us. And so in fact it is not a contradiction at all that a Church father would allegorically see Christ as the rock in Matt 16:18. There is also the angogacle sense and moral sense but I won't get in to those here. So you are creatging dichotomies that really don't exist and what the fathers say fits precisely how Catholicism views scripture. Your posts are simply wasted space on this board. But thanks for posting them. It gave me an opportuinity to explain this for people who listen. I hope you will.

Blessings

 

[2NCBrother]

The Rock Mass - Jesus

Peter, whose name was originally Simon was introduced to Jesus by Andrew, his brother, who was a disciple of John the Baptist initially. Andrew said to Simon: We have found the Messiah. Jesus when he first saw Simon said to him:

42 You are Simon the son of John, you will be called Cephas - which is translated Peter (John 1).

There was a wonderful conversation that Jesus had with him later:

He said to them: You, though, who do you say I am?

In answer Simon Peter said: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

In response Jesus said to him: Happy you are, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.

Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

The Greek for this is:

su ei PetroV kai epi tauth th petra oikodomhsw mou thn ekklhsian (Matthew 16:18 - Greek).

(PetroV) Petros in Greek is masculine and means 'Stone' (i.e. moveable rock), whereas petra petra is feminine and means 'rock mass' (i.e. unmoveable rock), or foundation upon which a stone is to be put. The symbolism is of course that the male puts things on or in the female. Jesus is saying that he is the rock mass, and the Peter is a stone to be placed upon that rock mass. This is not an easy scripture to understand.

So Jesus renamed Simon as ‘Peter’, which means 'Stone' and not ‘Rock mass’ in Greek, because Jesus was to be the foundation of the Christian Church not Peter. So the Catholics who claim a lineage from Peter are mislead. The last Temple under the Law of Moses, which was Zerubbabel’s temple (although rebuilt by Herod) was built on a rock mass, on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem. This site was originally a stone threshing floor, which had been purchased by King David from Ornan the Jebusite (2 Samuel 24, 1 Chronicles 21).

It is easier to understand in context. Take for example the word symbolic meaning of:

The house built on sand

24 Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man [sanctified Christian - son of the 2nd Jacobian Covenant], who built the house of him [Hope of God’s Kingdom] upon the rock-mass [Jesus Christ].

25 And the rain poured down [a new water baptism commenced] and the rivers came [persecution from secular and religious groups] and the winds blew [holy spirit testing of him] and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass.

26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man [son of the 2nd Jacobian Covenant], who built the house of him [Hope of God’s Kingdom] upon the sand [idolizing members of the congregation].

27 And the rain poured down and the rivers came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great [to the individual as he is now in Gehenna] (Matthew 7).

47 Everyone that comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
48 He is like a human [son of the 1st Abrahamic Covenant (1AC)] building a house [Hope of God’s Kingdom], who dug and went down deep [by thorough personal bible research] and laid a foundation [his faith] upon the rock-mass [Jesus Christ]. Consequently, when a flood arose [persecution began], the river [secular people] dashed against that house, but was not strong enough to shake it, because of its being well built.

49 But the [one] who hears and does not do, is like a human [son of the 1AC] who built a house [Hope of God’s Kingdom] upon the ground [the administration of the true church] without a foundation [faith]. Against it the river [secular people] dashed, and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house became great [to the individual in Gehenna] (Luke 6).

What this is saying is that if you do not build on the rock mass (Jesus), you will lose your faith and eventually your house will collapse. You must always remember these words:

19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread (Genesis 3)

 

[thessalonian]

2N2,

Sorry, your post has been answered many times in this thread. Jesus did not speak Greek. He spoke Aaramaic when the passage in Matt 16:18 occured. We know this because he calles Peter "simon bar Johna" which is an aaramic way of naming people. Now the point I make is that in Aaramic there is in fact only one word, Kepha, and it means rock. We in fact know that Jesus used the word kepha because Peter is called cephas by John in John 1:42 and Paul in 1 Cor 2 or three times. You can look them up. So your post is based on false assumptions. Further petros can mean rock as well. Rarely in fact in Greek is it used for stone. In some poetry as I recall. Even strongs concordance is honest about this.

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.c ... index=rock


4074. Petros pet'-ros apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:--Peter, rock. Compare 2786.

Now there is another reason why petros, rather than petra was used. Greek is gendered. Thus calling him Petra would have been like calling him linda or virginia, etc. Petros is the masculine form of the word and quite an appropriate transaltion form the aaramic which is gender nuetral.

Thanks for posting however.

Blessings

 

[fatboyluis]

The house built on sand

24 Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man [sanctified Christian - son of the 2nd Jacobian Covenant], who built the house of him [Hope of God’s Kingdom] upon the rock-mass [Jesus Christ].

25 And the rain poured down [a new water baptism commenced] and the rivers came [persecution from secular and religious groups] and the winds blew [holy spirit testing of him] and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass.

oh dude that sounds so like the Catholic Church, (sry for pointing out the obvious)

God Bless

 

[gazzamor]

PETER (THE ROCK?)

Matt.16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

PETROS
There has been over the centuries a teaching that Jesus is referring to Peter as the “rock†in Matt.16:18 to build his church upon. But when one delves into this particular text and reads it carefully, finds this to be untrue. Firstly, there are two Greek words used in this text that denotes a rock. The first one is the Greek word Petros which means a rock that you can pick up by the hand. When translated into today’s languages, means Peter. That is the name of one of Jesus disciples.

PETRA
The Other word which is translated “rock†in this text is Petra which has the meaning of a great rock mass such as Ayers Rock of Australia or the Rock of Gibraltar. In the context of this verse is referring to Jesus himself. The Christian Church is built upon Christ not upon Peter.

There are many instances, especially in the Old Testament where God is acknowledged as the Rock of their salvation.

Ps.18:2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

31 For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

SPIRITUAL ROCK
Is there any other rock other than God? The answer is no. Even in the New Testament Jesus is acknowledged as “the†Rock. 1 Cor.10:4. The first five verses talks about Israel as they came out of Egypt, passed through the Red Sea and their wanderings in the desert and ate the Manna, Spiritual food, and drank from the “rock†for their spiritual drink. In verse 4 it says that the rock in which they drank from was Christ Himself. So in actual fact, Jesus Christ is the rock in which the Christian Church is built upon, not Peter as some Christians believe.


Even though Peter exercised His faith in Christ and publicly acknowledged him as the Christ, still he had a very limited understanding of Christ’s mission. The very next instance we find Peter is rebuking Christ, saying, no! This will never happen to you. Satan seized the opportunity to rebuke Jesus so as to discourage him into abandoning his mission here on earth.Matt.16:21-24. Jesus saw this and rebuked not Peter, but Satan. Satan had dogged Jesus all the way. Every opportunity Satan used to tempt Jesus to abandon his mission or trip Jesus up. Luke says in describing Jesus temptation in the wilderness that after Jesus was tempted, “When the devil had finished all the tempting, he left him until an opportune time.†Luke 4:13. This incident with Peter was one of those opportune times.

In the text, Jesus said that the gates of Hades will not overcome it. The question is: Did the gates of Hades overcome Peter? It certainly did. Hades is the Greek word for the grave. Did the grave claim Peter? Yes, because he died. Did the grave claim Jesus? No, because he rose on the third day.
Even Peter himself disclaims that he is the Rock. In 1 Peter 2:4-8 Peter acknowledges Christ as the living Stone, and the “Capstone†of the Church, a Stone that is a stumbling block to men that makes them stumble.

Paul himself tells us that Jesus is the chief cornerstone: Eph. 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Jesus alone is the foundation of the Church, not Peter. 1 Cor. 3: 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

God bless

gazzamor

 

[AVBunyan]

Relic,
You post such tripe because you and your author do not understand Catholicism.

Thess - this is worn out - A drunk is the last one to see that he is a drunk. You cannot see the errors because you don't want to see them - you can't handle it.

You are on the inside blinded with your loyalty to a false system. Thousands upon thousands have had their eyes opened - gotten saved and then with enlightened eyes stepped back and saw Rome for what it was and were appalled. :o

How do you dispute these folks' testimonies?

How do you dispute hundreds and years of scores of documentation regarding the errors and inconsistencies of Rome?

A pope out of the thin blue sky deciding that Mary was sinless and bodily went up to heaven? Gag me with a spoon! :o :o :o

How do you reconcicle that most of third world countries who are dominated by Rome stay in poverty and ignorance and their pagan religions?

How do you reconcile that the average Catholic couldn't find Obabiah in the scriptures without a table of contents?

Just ask the average Catholic how much scriipture can they quote?

Just ask the average American if they would trust a priest with their children these days? :o

How do you cover up and live with your conscience St. Bartholomeu's (sp?) massacre and many others like it? :x

Will you mind explaining to me how a pope can get up in front of millions while on world TV (Christmas mass and other times) and not ever tell people how to be saved - never!!! And I have monitored Christams mass (mess) for many a year to see that show and never once heard a pope tell the world how to be saved! A travesty - A joke - a sham - ungodly - wicked!!! :evil:
You put a true and regenerated bible believer on TV in front of 90 million and they will hear the gospel!!!!

How can you defend the above?

Do you know how you folks defend it? You say, "Protestant lies and you don't understand Catholicsim."

Oh, yes we do - we've read more about your religion than your own people. Our consciences have not been turned over to an earthly system of priests and popes.

The oldest church? Yes, Babylon has been around since Gen. 11

God bless

 

[thessalonian]

AV,

Your in a dream world man. The very words "a pope said mary was sinless out of the blue" shows just how drunk you truly are with error. It was hardly out of the blue but your protestant historians won't even look at history. They blind themselves to the writings of the early church and say na, na, boo boo it's not true. You hear our exegesis over and over and yet your ears are not open. You use sins of men to justify the division within protestantism. I got news for you. Most of the protestants I know can't quote scripture either. Protestants are about twisting history to fit what they believe. That is so obvious to those who's hearts and minds are open. Yours is not. Only a total fool would read the Bible and say God could not use a sinner as the leader of the Church. You put your head in the sand and bash peter, but he was God's chosen one. It is so plain in scripture but you deny, deny deny. So i'll not waste any more time on your tripe. Your hislop's book has been debunked and you cannot see it. That thread phat started is so silly. I pray for you man. That God will open your heart.

Blessings