Bible Study Christian nations or Christian nationalism

[JLB]

The real issue for me concerns what God was promising Abraham when he promised him "nations,"

Gentiles.

The Covenant always included Gentiles… not national countries.

Abraham was a gentile.

However God’s eternal plan is for all kingdoms of this world to be Christian; Ruled by Christ through His Government.

I believe we have seen glimpses of that over the years with different countries.

America was founded to be such.

 

[RandyK]

Gentiles.

The Covenant always included Gentiles… not national countries.

Abraham was a gentile.

However God’s eternal plan is for all kingdoms of this world to be Christian; Ruled by Christ through His Government.

I believe we have seen glimpses of that over the years with different countries.

America was founded to be such.

I believe "Gentiles" means "nations?" And this is the kicker--God promised Abraham "nations." One cannot get around that!

So what I usually get is a re-definition of the word "nations." Or, the word "nations" is reduced to a meaningless ambiguity. I'm sticking with the Scriptures and the words they choose to use. How about you?

Again, the problem seems to be that most Christians rely on *other Christians,* particularly on theological schools of the past. What if since the early Church there has been a lapse in belief that God will save the nation Israel? What if then the Church overall reduced the meaning of Israel as a nation to a "Jewish remnant within the Church?"

That's what I think happened with the onset of Amillennialism, which denied that Israel had any more place in biblical prophecy *as a nation.* All hope was given up in view of the fact Israel collapsed as a nation, went into exile, was scattered as a people, and remained hardened, as a majority, for hundreds of years.

I don't blame them! It wasn't God's priority to fight the Jewish People if they had adopted a hardened form of Judaism, which has now endured for centuries.

So now there is no prophetic school in the past to rely on unless you adhere to the old Amillennial position, denying any place for Israel in future history as a restored nation--restored both physically and spiritually. But we're seeing the restoration physically, and it isn't too much to believe that the nation can be converted to Christianity at Christ's return.

Even more, the early Church had no basis itself for understanding how Christians should view the idea of future Christian nations. There was no Christianity before them, and Christian nations had yet to emerge. So we're into new territory, which is as it should be with endtimes prophecy. We're facing a "whole new world!"

When we look back to see how this early Church viewed the idea of "Christian nations," there is obviously a lack of information, in view of the fact Christian nations had not yet emerged. But we do have the Abrahamic Covenant, which is what I rely on when Abraham is promised "nations" of faith!

 

[JLB]

I believe "Gentiles" means "nations?" And this is the kicker--God promised Abraham "nations." One cannot get around that!

Ethnic groups.

Not land mass.

I will make you a great nation; (goy)
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


Abraham, the gentile was to become a great nation Israel, which are called Jews, however God’s intent was not just natural Israel but a distinct nation called the Israel of God made up of the one new man; who like Abraham are both gentile and Jew, or rather neither Jew or Gentile.

A Christian nation; A Christian ethnic group -
a nation of Christ followers. With the DNA of Christ.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:7-8


Genesis - in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Galatians - In you all the nations shall be blessed.

 

[RandyK]

Ethnic groups.

Not land mass.

I will make you a great nation; (goy)
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Yes, this is the regular treatment I get when I insist that the Abrahamic Covenant requires actual "nations"--not just ethnic groups. There is a big difference between "ethnic groups" and "nations." A "nation" is not just a race or family, as we see in the development of Israel from a family to a "nation"--not just an "ethnic group."

We have various ethnic groups throughout the US, for example. But they would not be described as "nations!" The US is a nation, and various ethnic groups are either the majority or minority groups. But those who want to revise the definition of "nation" to mean only an "ethnic group" must have that definition to support their theological suppositions.

Abraham, the gentile was to become a great nation Israel, which are called Jews, however God’s intent was not just natural Israel but a distinct nation called the Israel of God made up of the one new man; who like Abraham are both gentile and Jew, or rather neither Jew or Gentile.

Jesus is the "New Man," and all ethnic groups and all nations may participate in him via the Holy Spirit when they sign on to the covenant he offers. This has nothing to do with annihilating ethnicities and nationalities. It only removes the former restrictions that had been imposed upon Israel by the Law.

It had provided a covenant exclusively for Israel, and made them distinct from other nations. Ethnicities could be included in the covenant of Law with conversion to Judaism. But Israel remained the singular nation with whom God made an exclusive covenant.

A Christian nation; A Christian ethnic group -
a nation of Christ followers. With the DNA of Christ.

Yes, this is what I'm regularly told, that the Bible depicts the international Church as a "nation." But language seems to forbid this unless the word "nation" is given in the context of a metaphor. And I don't see that. The few examples where this is claimed can also be used in a literal way and not metaphorically.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Galatians 3:7-8
Genesis - in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.
Galatians - In you all the nations shall be blessed.

Nations are often peopled by a predominant race, or "family." This occasion does not remove the definition of "nation," but defines its constitution. A ethnic group is a family group or race that is either the majority or a minority group.

A nation is more than a family or race. It is a social constitution providing for self-sufficiency and distinction from other like groups, or "nations."There can be many races in a single nation, but they would not be viewed as "nations" within a single nation.

"Nation" suggests a pollitical constitution, which is indicated, biblically, with the leadership that came to organize and lead all of the Israeli tribes as a single entity. With the military campaigns under the judges, Israel was led not just as tribes, but as the single "nation" they were promised to Abraham to be.

And under the monarchies, Israel became a full-fledged nation, though it had already existed as such coming out of Egypt. We see that because God gave all 12 tribes a single covenant and a single Law. Later, this Law called upon all 12 tribes to meet together in a single location in Jerusalem 3 times per year. That is what made Israel a "nation," and not just an "ethnicity" or "family."

 

[JLB]

Yes, this is the regular treatment I get when I insist that the Abrahamic Covenant requires actual "nations"--not just ethnic groups. There is a big difference between "ethnic groups" and "nations." A "nation" is not just a race or family, as we see in the development of Israel from a family to a "nation"--not just an "ethnic group."

Ok. I quoted Genesis 12 and Galatians 3 so we could discuss both of what is written.

Also, remember I have advocated for the idea of a Christian nation, because that is God’s plan for mankind, as we see throughout scripture.

It is said in different ways but Revelation 11:15 is one of the clearest.

• The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Revelation 11:15

He wants all kingdoms and nations to be Christian; to be under the rule and government of Jesus Christ.

IOW’s not one single kingdom, nation or government is to be shared with the devil or any of his followers.

This is the essence of thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

No devils in heaven. No wicked people in heaven.


Here is how it was said in the beginning; the first words spoken to mankind.

Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion… over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Genesis 1:28


Jesus came to restore the authority Adam lost in the garden to mankind, SO THAT the work of filling the earth with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD would be fulfilled.


Jesus came to demonstrate the original mandate for mankind.


… For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

again


how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Acts 10:38

 

[RandyK]

Ok. I quoted Genesis 12 and Galatians 3 so we could discuss both of what is written.
Also, remember I have advocated for the idea of a Christian nation, because that is God’s plan for mankind, as we see throughout scripture.
It is said in different ways but Revelation 11:15 is one of the clearest.

• The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ

I read it singular as "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord." But I don't have my Greek interlinear in front of me. It doesn't say "the nation of the world has become the nation of our Lord."

He wants all kingdoms and nations to be Christian; to be under the rule and government of Jesus Christ.

Undoubtedly.

IOW’s not one single kingdom, nation or government is to be shared with the devil or any of his followers.

This is the essence of thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Yes, the whole earth. But my point concerns the promise God gave Abraham concerning nations of faith, which I believe has been in process since the Cross.

God has not just made individual Christians. Much more, He has made *Christian societies* and *Christian nations,* as I see it.

 

[JLB]

God has not just made individual Christians. Much more, He has made *Christian societies* and *Christian nations,* as I see it.

Christians are a nation. A holy nation. A royal priesthood.

A holy nation.

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10