K
kenan
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What's the difference between these two religions?
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K
kenan
Guest
*nudge*
biblecatholic
Member
kenan said:
I admit I havent done much reading on them, but I wonder wonder if people would consider them judaizers?
L
LostKid
Guest
I know one of these guys. He actually used to work at the Christian youth center.
I don't know a whole lot about it, but when I asked him he ultimately said he's Jewish in heritage but believes in everything the bible teaches.
Seems really stupid to me, you know, I'm a Christian but since I have Jewish heritage I make my own denomination. This leads me to believe that there's more to it then the simple factor of Jewish blood, although it is indeed a factor.
I don't know a whole lot about it, but when I asked him he ultimately said he's Jewish in heritage but believes in everything the bible teaches.
Seems really stupid to me, you know, I'm a Christian but since I have Jewish heritage I make my own denomination. This leads me to believe that there's more to it then the simple factor of Jewish blood, although it is indeed a factor.
Messianic Jews are Jews who have come to realize the Jesus was and is the Jewish Messiah. Its not a denomination. If you knew some chruch history you would realize that we are all grafted in Jews. What is stupid is that the gentiles who came in rejected the Jewish roots and started the "Christian" church. They also are the ones who created moronic denominations. One was created simply because a King wanted a divorce. God never intended all the denominations that are out there. We as the Body of Christ are a sad refelction of what Jesus came to do.
T
therealsuperman64
Guest
The only difference I see is the style of worship but other than that, they're pretty much the same.
kenan said:
Messianic Jews are Jews that have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and keep and adhere to the law as expressed in the Torah and the Tenahk (Law and the Prophets).
Christians on the other hand are gentiles that have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. As far as adhering to the law as expressed in the Torah and the Tenahk (Law and the Prophets) it an "everyman for himself" philosophy.
T
The Bible Thumper
Guest
I think the question had been answered sufficiently.
Note: Some orthodox Jews will claim that Jews4Jesus is a sort of identity theft...
Note: Some orthodox Jews will claim that Jews4Jesus is a sort of identity theft...
K
kenan
Guest
RND said:
Yea that's a pretty good way to put it. One thing I don't like about today's "christianity" is that there are so many denominations, some disagreeing on such trivial things, almost like you have hundreds of "flavours" of christianity. This is why I don't normally go to church, sans an Adventist church my grandparents go to.
I saw a quote somewhere around here, "If it makes sense literally, why try to make sense of it metaphorically" or something along the lines of that. I think that this is the best way to interpret the Bible.
Z
Zechariah
Guest
Messianic Jews from what i've heard believe in Jesus. Most Jewish denominations do not consider Jews gone Christian, since clearly the person has turned to Christianity. It is believed in Judaism, that you are to prepare for the coming of the messiah, and if Jesus indeed is the messiah, then these laws no longer are relevent since the messiah has come. Really, you cannot be a "Jewish-Christian". It's an oxy-moron. Jews believe the messiah is to come, and Christians believe, Jesus, their messiah has come.
P
Poster
Guest
I was an Orthodox Jew for quite a few years, before that I was a Christian.
I came to ('went to'?) OJ via messianic Judaism (don't tell anyone that) so I actually explored the subject. A famous Messianic Jew happened to live on my very block, as luck would have it.
These are what I believe to be the facts, not just from one reading, but from multiple sources, yet, I respect those who disagree as I'm not bringing proofs:
1. Most people who attend Messianic Services are vast majority not Jewish from birth.
I don't think that birth should matter, however, this factor helps to understand the backstory of those who attend. A lot of very serious and sincere Messianic Jews actually change their Bob Smith names to Jewish sounding ones. (by 'a lot' I mean probably very few change their names, but, more so than the average Christian in contrast)
1b. Most people who attend Messianic Services consider themselves "Jewish" because they believe they are following the real Judaism.
2. Orthodox Jewish counter-missionary speakers can tell the few in a crowd who are Messianic Jews. The "Christians" (not Messianic Jews) are very polite, extremely cordial, almost afraid to ask questions. You can almost pick out who are the Messianic Jews because they are the opposite of that, and I say that respectfully. Consider it a passion on their part.
2b. The reason, I suspect, that there is hostility from Messianic Jews to Orthodontist, is because getting braces cost so much and is painful for the first month. And the reason they are hostile to Orthodox is because Messianic Jews are dead set against Rabbinic ________ (fill in the blank, Rabbinic laws, Rabbinic rulings, Rabbinic coffee, Rabbinic anything)
3 Messianic Jews adopt, ironically given 2b above, artificially (I assert) trappings of Rabbinic Judaism to lure Jews (people born Jewish). Hence the yarmelka (not found in the bible), tzitzis and talis - only worn by men (the bible doesn't say only men should wear them), shabbos candles (no place in the bible), Hanukah (not found in the bible) that sort of "Jewish visual' thing, something ignorant Jews think is the religion of their grandparents, and don't discover until later that Yeshua Hamashiach is not Joshua the Kosher Supervisor (only one person is going to get that joke).
xxxxx
Having been to a dozen Yeshivas (real yeshivas, not the Messianic kind) theres NO WAY that Orthodox Jews think that Jews - born to a Jewish mother - who become Christian stop being "Jewish". All Orthodox Jews believe they are still "Jewish". Well, of course they shouldn't expect to get shishi. (One guy is laughing somewhere.)
All Orthodox Jews believe that when the messiah comes, the laws will remain in tact, continued, the Temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices resume. That's the whole point of being the moshiac, to win the wars and defend Israel.
Not being Orthodox anymore (see my thread about Numbers 31) I don't consider myself 'Jewish'.
I wasn't born Jewish, I don't believe in the religion(s) any more, I don't consider myself "Jewish' in one sense.
If someone were to use the phrase, 'He's Jewish because he is influenced by Jews, Judaism, thinks like them, likes Israel, just as pita is "Jewish bread", so he's also 'Jewish' in that sense." Then I would agree with that limited use of the phrase, and I think Christianity is Jewish in the broader scheme of things. Of course, there's so many Christians and they have distinct and huge subsets of excluded definitions, I think it's misleading to call a 'Christian' 'Jewish' unless in the same sentence it is mentioned that they believe in Jesus or Yeshua or anything to clarify what is meant.
Catholics believe they are the real "Jews' because they believe they are continuing the desires of what G-d wanted, they 'took over' the role, got the blessings transferred to them, etc. But they don't go around calling themselves 'Jews' because that would be misleading, confusing, (and historically the Catholics weren't too fond of the Jews). Polite people don't use beautiful swastikas to decorate their houses and say it's an ancient symbol, even though it is. For good reason, it's really misleading, it would really mislead someone, they would get the wrong point, the wrong picture. Why do that when there are alternatives? (I think calling gay marriage just 'marriage' would be similarly misleading. Calling it "gay marriage" would not mislead anyone and would be clear.)
I think that Jesus was more Jewish and less Christian than Christians realize (see my thread on Jesus' formula for forgiveness in the apologetics section).
Thank you, former brothers, for your kindness, and as always, abundant love.
(All that love and a dime will get me a cup of coffee [just kidding, might as well cash in on my right to make jokes on both sides of the fence!]. Christians really are nice people. I can say that because Messianic Jews don't call themselves... ok, take it easy, just kidding again... ])
If a moderator finds any part of my post improper, please go ahead and censor out any problematic parts and let me know so I'll have a better feel for this forum's rules.
Respectfully,
Poster
I came to ('went to'?) OJ via messianic Judaism (don't tell anyone that) so I actually explored the subject. A famous Messianic Jew happened to live on my very block, as luck would have it.
These are what I believe to be the facts, not just from one reading, but from multiple sources, yet, I respect those who disagree as I'm not bringing proofs:
1. Most people who attend Messianic Services are vast majority not Jewish from birth.
I don't think that birth should matter, however, this factor helps to understand the backstory of those who attend. A lot of very serious and sincere Messianic Jews actually change their Bob Smith names to Jewish sounding ones. (by 'a lot' I mean probably very few change their names, but, more so than the average Christian in contrast)
1b. Most people who attend Messianic Services consider themselves "Jewish" because they believe they are following the real Judaism.
2. Orthodox Jewish counter-missionary speakers can tell the few in a crowd who are Messianic Jews. The "Christians" (not Messianic Jews) are very polite, extremely cordial, almost afraid to ask questions. You can almost pick out who are the Messianic Jews because they are the opposite of that, and I say that respectfully. Consider it a passion on their part.
2b. The reason, I suspect, that there is hostility from Messianic Jews to Orthodontist, is because getting braces cost so much and is painful for the first month. And the reason they are hostile to Orthodox is because Messianic Jews are dead set against Rabbinic ________ (fill in the blank, Rabbinic laws, Rabbinic rulings, Rabbinic coffee, Rabbinic anything)
3 Messianic Jews adopt, ironically given 2b above, artificially (I assert) trappings of Rabbinic Judaism to lure Jews (people born Jewish). Hence the yarmelka (not found in the bible), tzitzis and talis - only worn by men (the bible doesn't say only men should wear them), shabbos candles (no place in the bible), Hanukah (not found in the bible) that sort of "Jewish visual' thing, something ignorant Jews think is the religion of their grandparents, and don't discover until later that Yeshua Hamashiach is not Joshua the Kosher Supervisor (only one person is going to get that joke).
xxxxx
Having been to a dozen Yeshivas (real yeshivas, not the Messianic kind) theres NO WAY that Orthodox Jews think that Jews - born to a Jewish mother - who become Christian stop being "Jewish". All Orthodox Jews believe they are still "Jewish". Well, of course they shouldn't expect to get shishi. (One guy is laughing somewhere.)
All Orthodox Jews believe that when the messiah comes, the laws will remain in tact, continued, the Temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices resume. That's the whole point of being the moshiac, to win the wars and defend Israel.
Not being Orthodox anymore (see my thread about Numbers 31) I don't consider myself 'Jewish'.
I wasn't born Jewish, I don't believe in the religion(s) any more, I don't consider myself "Jewish' in one sense.
If someone were to use the phrase, 'He's Jewish because he is influenced by Jews, Judaism, thinks like them, likes Israel, just as pita is "Jewish bread", so he's also 'Jewish' in that sense." Then I would agree with that limited use of the phrase, and I think Christianity is Jewish in the broader scheme of things. Of course, there's so many Christians and they have distinct and huge subsets of excluded definitions, I think it's misleading to call a 'Christian' 'Jewish' unless in the same sentence it is mentioned that they believe in Jesus or Yeshua or anything to clarify what is meant.
Catholics believe they are the real "Jews' because they believe they are continuing the desires of what G-d wanted, they 'took over' the role, got the blessings transferred to them, etc. But they don't go around calling themselves 'Jews' because that would be misleading, confusing, (and historically the Catholics weren't too fond of the Jews). Polite people don't use beautiful swastikas to decorate their houses and say it's an ancient symbol, even though it is. For good reason, it's really misleading, it would really mislead someone, they would get the wrong point, the wrong picture. Why do that when there are alternatives? (I think calling gay marriage just 'marriage' would be similarly misleading. Calling it "gay marriage" would not mislead anyone and would be clear.)
I think that Jesus was more Jewish and less Christian than Christians realize (see my thread on Jesus' formula for forgiveness in the apologetics section).
Thank you, former brothers, for your kindness, and as always, abundant love.
(All that love and a dime will get me a cup of coffee [just kidding, might as well cash in on my right to make jokes on both sides of the fence!]. Christians really are nice people. I can say that because Messianic Jews don't call themselves... ok, take it easy, just kidding again... ])
If a moderator finds any part of my post improper, please go ahead and censor out any problematic parts and let me know so I'll have a better feel for this forum's rules.
Respectfully,
Poster
R
rickanderson
Guest
"What's the difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism?"
Well, if this question hasn't been beaten to death already, it's about to be (by me).
Messianic Judaism is an expression of Christianity, but with a Jewish emphasis. (That's the short answer.)
Here's the long answer:
First of all, when you ask somebody this question, you gotta get them to define how they're using these terms. Many (not all) Messianic Jews define "Christianity" as something like this: "a Gentile expression of New Testament belief that denies Jewish believers in Jesus their God-given culture and religious heritage. This Gentile expression may be perfectly fine for Gentiles, but is not the proper way for Jews to be completed in their Messiah."
Okay, now here's how most born-again Christians define Christianity: "That system of New Testament beliefs expressive of a living relationship with anyone (whether Jew or Gentile) who has faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord."
So why are Messianic Jews making this distinction? After all, it may seem to the rest of us that Messianic Jews are just giving the rest of us a hard time just because they want to be exclusive and different. But the issue's more complicated than that. Messianic Jews do not see any Scriptural warrant for discontinuing Jewish traditions, cultural distinctives, and practices JUST BECAUSE they've come to faith in Yeshua Ha-Moshiach (i.e. "Jesus the Messiah). Instead, they see just the opposite: an encouragement from Scripture to continue being "Jewish", now that they've become "completed" Jews in Christ (er, excuse me, in the "Messiah Yeshua").
Messianic Jews don't like using Gentile Christian terminology, and there's an historic reason for that. Sadly, most of Christian church history is filled with the persecution of Jews by the very churches that hold to the orthodox, creedal doctrines that Messianic Jews have in common with other Christians. They'd agree with them on such matters as the Nicene Creed and the Apostolic doctrine, but they realize that such terrible things were done to them in the name of Christ and under the oversight of Christian churches that they feel they can no longer be Jews in the same stifling system that gave rise to the Crusades, the blood libel accusations, the charges of well poisonings, the Russian pogroms, the massacres, the Spanish Inquisition, the forced expulsions from nearly every country in Europe, the forced conversions to Christianity, and the national blame for crucifying Jesus ... all done in the name of Christ and usually with the active involvement of the organized churches that showed them such bigotry, suspicion and hatred for so many years. Consider this, by way of comparison: despite Christian views, the churches of the South (and North) believed for a long time that black people were intellectually and racially inferior to white people, and they TREATED them that way. They did the same with Native Americans, too. So Messianic Judaism developed in the way that they did. However, this movement is not without serious faults of its own. More about that later, sometime ...
Hope that helps,
Rev. "Rick" Anderson
Assoc. Pastor, Stratford Othodox Presbyterian Church
CHAIM Ministry to the Jewish People
rickchaim@juno.com
http://www.chaim.org
Well, if this question hasn't been beaten to death already, it's about to be (by me).
Messianic Judaism is an expression of Christianity, but with a Jewish emphasis. (That's the short answer.)
Here's the long answer:
First of all, when you ask somebody this question, you gotta get them to define how they're using these terms. Many (not all) Messianic Jews define "Christianity" as something like this: "a Gentile expression of New Testament belief that denies Jewish believers in Jesus their God-given culture and religious heritage. This Gentile expression may be perfectly fine for Gentiles, but is not the proper way for Jews to be completed in their Messiah."
Okay, now here's how most born-again Christians define Christianity: "That system of New Testament beliefs expressive of a living relationship with anyone (whether Jew or Gentile) who has faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord."
So why are Messianic Jews making this distinction? After all, it may seem to the rest of us that Messianic Jews are just giving the rest of us a hard time just because they want to be exclusive and different. But the issue's more complicated than that. Messianic Jews do not see any Scriptural warrant for discontinuing Jewish traditions, cultural distinctives, and practices JUST BECAUSE they've come to faith in Yeshua Ha-Moshiach (i.e. "Jesus the Messiah). Instead, they see just the opposite: an encouragement from Scripture to continue being "Jewish", now that they've become "completed" Jews in Christ (er, excuse me, in the "Messiah Yeshua").
Messianic Jews don't like using Gentile Christian terminology, and there's an historic reason for that. Sadly, most of Christian church history is filled with the persecution of Jews by the very churches that hold to the orthodox, creedal doctrines that Messianic Jews have in common with other Christians. They'd agree with them on such matters as the Nicene Creed and the Apostolic doctrine, but they realize that such terrible things were done to them in the name of Christ and under the oversight of Christian churches that they feel they can no longer be Jews in the same stifling system that gave rise to the Crusades, the blood libel accusations, the charges of well poisonings, the Russian pogroms, the massacres, the Spanish Inquisition, the forced expulsions from nearly every country in Europe, the forced conversions to Christianity, and the national blame for crucifying Jesus ... all done in the name of Christ and usually with the active involvement of the organized churches that showed them such bigotry, suspicion and hatred for so many years. Consider this, by way of comparison: despite Christian views, the churches of the South (and North) believed for a long time that black people were intellectually and racially inferior to white people, and they TREATED them that way. They did the same with Native Americans, too. So Messianic Judaism developed in the way that they did. However, this movement is not without serious faults of its own. More about that later, sometime ...
Hope that helps,
Rev. "Rick" Anderson
Assoc. Pastor, Stratford Othodox Presbyterian Church
CHAIM Ministry to the Jewish People
rickchaim@juno.com
http://www.chaim.org
rickanderson said:
Pastor the first "converts" were "messianic Jews. Not the other way around.
Pastor, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist Christian and I don't believe we should be so hasty in discounting the tremendous meaning in the feast, festivals or holy days either. So this is not an exclusive belief of Messianics. But when you say "Jewish traditions" are you referring to Rabbinical Talmudic Judaism or the Hebraic of the Torah and Tanakh?
K
kenan
Guest
Wow this thread turned a year old last week 
Anyway, I started this thread curious about the idea of being a Messianic Jew, but I think that people should know that I've started being a bit of a Unitarian now. I still appreciate everyone's answers, it just means that I know a bit more about Christianity as a whole.
Also, I started doing comparative religion at school which includes a topic on Christianity, so hopefully I'll learn some more of the history around the religion.
Anyway, I started this thread curious about the idea of being a Messianic Jew, but I think that people should know that I've started being a bit of a Unitarian now. I still appreciate everyone's answers, it just means that I know a bit more about Christianity as a whole.
Also, I started doing comparative religion at school which includes a topic on Christianity, so hopefully I'll learn some more of the history around the religion.
kenan said:Wow this thread turned a year old last week
I feel bad! I didn't get the post a card! What was I thinking!
Isn't that the real goal after all kenan?!
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
That's great! Keep your ears open and a question on your lips!
I
Ivy
Guest
If anyone really is seriously interested in this topic, I published a book for a Messianic Jew called, Messianic Bible Study, and it really is a fantastic resource, both for new Jewish Christians and for Christians in general; it shares the basics of historical Bible Christianity. You can read about it here:
http://messianicbiblestudy.com/books.htm
http://messianicbiblestudy.com/books.htm
I
Ivy
Guest
Yes, the "dispensational" part throws me off, too. I just close an eye to that part of it, to be honest. But the history part I find fascinating.
Ivy said:
Ivy, here's a link to a Messianic rabbi in of all places Arkansas that I really enjoy reading: http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/topics.htm
I hope you do as well.
David