Christianity Changes View

[Ambrose]

I made this thread particularly to converse with Atothetheist on the topic but anyone else is welcome to join in on the conversation. It is about your shift in view when you leave Christianity, And your shift when you come into it.

IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, In the past I was very insecure in my faith and I swung back and forth between one and the other. Arguing how powerful and the way it only teaches good to the world it did. I think this may be the inappropriate forum for this, (Perhaps it belongs in testimonies, But this is for discussion) But the arguments atheism brought on its side. And I swung and swung like a pendulum back and forth. And through all of these swings after a little bit I started to realize something. Each time I left Christianity and came back my view changed. But when I was outside of Christianity I could not correctly view the way I viewed it inside Christianity. The old POV seems to disapear. Then when you come back, You have a new view of things. You make a new sense of things. And it makes complete sense. But when you are outside of Christianity it makes no sense. I only realized this only through rigorous experience. The way you made sense of things and viewed things in Christianity makes no sense to you when you jump outside of it. Anyone else who might have noticed this can comment or anyone who disagrees can rightfully say so.

 

[Atothetheist]

I made this thread particularly to converse with Atothetheist on the topic but anyone else is welcome to join in on the conversation. It is about your shift in view when you leave Christianity, And your shift when you come into it.

IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, In the past I was very insecure in my faith and I swung back and forth between one and the other. Arguing how powerful and the way it only teaches good to the world it did. I think this may be the inappropriate forum for this, (Perhaps it belongs in testimonies, But this is for discussion) But the arguments atheism brought on its side. And I swung and swung like a pendulum back and forth. And through all of these swings after a little bit I started to realize something. Each time I left Christianity and came back my view changed. But when I was outside of Christianity I could not correctly view the way I viewed it inside Christianity. The old POV seems to disapear. Then when you come back, You have a new view of things. You make a new sense of things. And it makes complete sense. But when you are outside of Christianity it makes no sense. I only realized this only through rigorous experience. The way you made sense of things and viewed things in Christianity makes no sense to you when you jump outside of it. Anyone else who might have noticed this can comment or anyone who disagrees can rightfully say so.

You are not wrong about it changes perspectives when you LEAVE christianity. My life has changed for the better. I rely on evidence and reasoning. I can not comment on coming back to christ, seeing as I have no horse in that race.

 

[Ambrose]

You are not wrong about it changes perspectives when you LEAVE christianity. My life has changed for the better. I rely on evidence and reasoning. I can not comment on coming back to christ, seeing as I have no horse in that race.

But tell me exactly how it changed for the better? Where did it improve? Give me your testimony. Faith is a beautiful thing. I think you may have either just forgotten that because someone else swayed you to think otherwise. Or you just forgot yourself, Or you never knew. The way it changes you deeply seem to go by unoticed. I only noticed through deep thought and lots of swings.

 

[Atothetheist]

But tell me exactly how it changed for the better? Where did it improve? Give me your testimony. Faith is a beautiful thing. I think you may have either just forgotten that because someone else swayed you to think otherwise. Or you just forgot yourself, Or you never knew. The way it changes you deeply seem to go by unoticed. I only noticed through deep thought and lots of swings.

I have gained skills to see through things. I have gained scientific knowledge about the origins of life. I am able to know the method of scientific inquiry, and have the critical thinking skills to apply it to normal things in life. I have realized the beauty of life as a complex process. I am able to accept people's differing opinions on different ideas because they have different perspectives. Whether or not those ideas are true are subject to debate.

I have learned that condemning people, and judging people by their beliefs is ultimatly a stupid thing, and to try to dicuss with them on the merits of their thinking.

You are asserting that faith is good. I disagree.

 

[Ambrose]

I have gained skills to see through things. I have gained scientific knowledge about the origins if life. I am able to know the method of scientific inquiry, and have the critical thinking skills to apply it to normal things in life. I have realized the beauty of life as a complex process. I am able to accept people's differing opinions on different ideas because they have different perspectives. Whether or not those ideas are true are subject to debate.

I have learned that condemning people, and judging people by their beliefs is ultimatly a stupid thing, and to try to dicuss with them on the merits of their thinking.

You are asserting that faith is good. I disagree.

I don't see how all but the last thing you said are not possible through Christianity. Perhaps you were taught the stereotype version that tells you to tell atheist that they are awful discusting human beings that are forever condemned to hell with no return? Can you not learn about science and the scientific method with Christianity? (I am heavily interested in almost all aspects of science.) Whether you have gained scientific knowledge about the origins of life depends on whether OE is scientifically based, I myself have historically found that true but I am just re-evaluating currently to be sure about everything. It will probably be a lifeliong thing but it is irrelevant. There are plenty of people on these forums who share OE beliefs and remain strong in Christian Faith. Everyone opinions are open for discussion when you are Christian. Just among Christians you discuss their biblical basis with other Christians and determine the truth of the statement. Otherwise you do so by other means. I think you have been taught the "Dark Ages Offensive" Stereotype of Christianity. Our bible tells us to be gentle, To adress even the faithless with kindness. But as you have learned. Some Christians just cant seem to swallow that very useful command. The bible teaches you nothing that causes anything bad. You would find that through heavy thinking and some experience that following the commands that you will never find something thats not beneficial to your life. Christianity teaches humility not to shoot other people down and treat them as lesser beings. And as for faith. That is up for a whole other discussion. But I will give a short answer.

If you were to rebel against EVERYTHING your mother told you to do when you were REALLY young because you didn't know why she wanted you to do it you wouldn't be in very good shape right now would you? But we will leave the beauty of faith to another discussion.

 

[Atothetheist]

I don't see how all but the last thing you said are not possible through Christianity. Perhaps you were taught the stereotype version that tells you to tell atheist that they are awful discusting human beings that are forever condemned to hell with no return? Can you not learn about science and the scientific method with Christianity? (I am heavily interested in almost all aspects of science.) Whether you have gained scientific knowledge about the origins of life depends on whether OE is scientifically based, I myself have historically found that true but I am just re-evaluating currently to be sure about everything. It will probably be a lifeliong thing but it is irrelevant. There are plenty of people on these forums who share OE beliefs and remain strong in Christian Faith. Everyone opinions are open for discussion when you are Christian. Just among Christians you discuss their biblical basis with other Christians and determine the truth of the statement. Otherwise you do so by other means. I think you have been taught the "Dark Ages Offensive" Stereotype of Christianity. Our bible tells us to be gentle, To adress even the faithless with kindness. But as you have learned. Some Christians just cant seem to swallow that very useful command. The bible teaches you nothing that causes anything bad. You would find that through heavy thinking and some experience that following the commands that you will never find something thats not beneficial to your life. Christianity teaches humility not to shoot other people down and treat them as lesser beings. And as for faith. That is up for a whole other discussion. But I will give a short answer.

If you were to rebel against EVERYTHING your mother told you to do when you were REALLY young because you didn't know why she wanted you to do it you wouldn't be in very good shape right now would you? But we will leave the beauty of faith to another discussion.

Here is the thing. Christianity goes against the Scientific Method. Faith is unscientific. It is unscientific because it requires belief without evidence. By OE i am assuming old earth.. Yea I tend to side with scientific facts.

The doctrine of hell is a direct insult to your assertion that christians are non judgemental because the bible tells us who is going to hell.

Do you believe that as an atheist I am going it hell?

 

[Atothetheist]

Here is the thing. Christianity goes against the Scientific Method. Faith is unscientific. It is unscientific because it requires belief without evidence. By OE i am assuming old earth.. Yea I tend to side with scientific facts.

The doctrine of hell is a direct insult to your asserion that christians are non judgemental because the bible tells us who is going to hell.

Do you believe that as an atheist I am going it hell?

And stop asking if I was taught blatent lies. No I wasn't taught anything like that. I was taught Christainity is true. Why would they resort to such backwards, and repulsive ways to try to teach me that.

 

[Ambrose]

Here is the thing. Christianity goes against the Scientific Method. Faith is unscientific. It is unscientific because it requires belief without evidence. By OE i am assuming old earth.. Yea I tend to side with scientific facts.

The doctrine of hell is a direct insult to your asserion that christians are non judgemental because the bible tells us who is going to hell.

Do you believe that as an atheist I am going it hell?

I find that its not a direct insult, Why? Because One (While I am questioning the concept of an eternal hell, I am swayed towards eternal hell at the moment.) I wasn't asking if you believed in old earth though. I was reminding you that there are plenty of OE believing Christians right here on this site. Obviously you believe in OE. You see we Christians are not Judgemental, The Lord is the judge. We are not to go around yelling at you for your sins or unbelief. Thats not our beef. We encourage and are to speak tenderly to you and try to bring you to the faith. Anyone not doing so is simply not following the teachings of Jesus. Jesus teachings are teachings of nothing but good. Reguardless of what you have been told. Based on what I have seen you have been taught the stereotypes. But you will find that by following Jesus teachings found IN THE BIBLE. You will only get good results. Do I believe that you are going to go to hell? Who am I to say what the score between you and the Lord will be when you die? If its in a few seconds or a few decades. I just try and bring you to the faith and show you its light. Obviously you have been blinded of its light because of corruption and a world that knows very little about the truth of Christianity or even wants you to believe. Its not:

Science vs. Christianity!

Science and Christianity are seperate fields. Science is the study of the things within the Lords creation. Christianity is the relationship with Jesus/God himself. You see, Christianity is not a "religion" Not because it doesn't go on faith because it does. But because it isn't based on a bunch of empty religious ceremonies. Its about a relationship. "Christianity is Gods quest for man. Religion is mans quest for God". Billy Graham. Child like faith is what he desires. God does not call on you to not use any medical tools or scientific tools avalible. If you have been taught that then I am afraid you have been taught wrong. Science is not bad. It is merely a supplement to your Christianity. It may seem pretty to always make decisions that never have to rely on faith but if you do that you will ruin your life. If you have put yourself in a bad situation and lets say you somehow drink too much alchohol (May not be your particular case but in one way or another a situation like this one will happen.) and you cannot drive your vehicle. You don't have a designated driver. So you call a friend late at night and ask him to pick you up. While if he is a good guy you probably wont have to put much faith in him. You will have to put faith in him. When you take all faith from your life you will mess up your life. Just try it. Crucially examine anything that may require you to make a decision based on faith and do not make these decisions. Lets see how life goes.

 

[Ambrose]

Why would they resort to such backwards, and repulsive ways to try to teach me that.

You would be thoroughly suprised if you thought they wouldn't do that. It may be because they were taught this from birth so they are unable to let it go even though they find no biblical basis in it.

 

[Grazer]

Here is the thing. Christianity goes against the Scientific Method. Faith is unscientific. It is unscientific because it requires belief without evidence. By OE i am assuming old earth.. Yea I tend to side with scientific facts.

The doctrine of hell is a direct insult to your assertion that christians are non judgemental because the bible tells us who is going to hell.

Do you believe that as an atheist I am going it hell?

This seems to be a common perception but faith, especially the Christian faith, does not require belief without evidence. Michael Ramsden puts it very well in the below video

[video=youtube;RziR9rivKHo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RziR9rivKHo[/video]

You don't trust someone (part of having faith in them) without evidence (or which experience is a form) that they are indeed trust worthy. Among other things, the Bible is a book of evidences upon which faith can be based;

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. - Luke 1:1-4

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name - John 20:30-31

If God wanted us to believe without evidence then he wouldn't have given us the Bible. You certainly don't have to believe the earth is young to be a Christian. I side with scientific facts as well but I see nothing in scientific facts that conflicts with my Christian faith

 

[farouk]

The New Testament also says, in Hebrews 11: 'Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.'

 

[Grazer]

The New Testament also says, in Hebrews 11: 'Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.'

This links in with faith being in response to truth and reality.

must believe that He is - God is real
and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him - that is trustworthy

But without evidence, how do you know God is both of those things? For some, the Bible is enough to answer those questions but it wasn't for me.

 

[farouk]

This links in with faith being in response to truth and reality.

must believe that He is - God is real
and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him - that is trustworthy

But without evidence, how do you know God is both of those things? For some, the Bible is enough to answer those questions but it wasn't for me.

Grazer:

So are you really saying that your senses - apart from faith - are greater than the promises in His Word from the Creator and Savior?

 

[reba]

Atothetheist

Asking if the science facts you speak of have changed in the last 100 years? even the last fifty..... in the last ten.... We see the changes of facts in the science of global warming. We see the differences of opinions of the science minds.

1956 my science text book had a picture of dino foot prints and mans foot prints together.... Some how now that science fact is not a fact?

Dont get me wrong i think learning grows and changes my problem is the science field represents themselves as factual with each change... even with simple stuff like coffee is bad coffee is not bad

Evidence is factual fact are hard and cold they are what they are.... What the science world calls evidence today may not be the evidence of tomorrow.....


Gods Word does not change, that is not to say we dont mess it up we seem to try our best to get in His way....

You wish not to believe in God well that is your choice man tends to choose self over God . When a Christian or Scripture points out this or that is sinful, that is not being judgmental it is just a statement of unchanging fact. There is not a man alive who can place a judgement on another to condemn them to hell. This cry of judgement is a cover up...

The Crossroad is laid out for man. Eternity is long time, some will choose to live in today only.

In the science of history we know Jesus walked this earth. We know Sodom was a real place that burnt.

 

[farouk]

reba: Yes, the New Testament speaks of 'oppositions of science falsely so called' (1 Timothy 6.20).

 

[Grazer]

Grazer:

So are you really saying that your senses - apart from faith - are greater than the promises in His Word from the Creator and Savior?

I never said that Farouk. What I am saying is that God does not expect us to believe without evidence, it's why he has given us the Bible.

I am looking at it from where I was before I became a Christian. How do I know God keeps his promises? How do I know that he even exists? I had a more fundamental question; how could I trust the Bible? How did I know it was accurate and what was originally written? I drilled it deeper to "how do I know Jesus rose from the dead?" These were questions that I faced before I became a Christian and was not prepared to commit my life to someone without some sort of answers to them. I found a couple of Christians resorting to circular logic;

How do you know the Bible is accurate?
Because its the word of God
How do you know its the word of God?
Because the Bible says so
So how do you know the Bible is accurate?

Fortunately, I found Christians who were able to answer my questions or direct me to people who could. But I was not going to believe it was true simply because I wanted it to be or because it sounded good. I needed evidence and God provided me with it.

To say faith is believing without evidence removes the very base from which we can say atheism is wrong (and indeed vice versa) On that basis you can believe whatever you want and provide no justification for it. God has given us the Bible to say "these are my promises and this is the evidence to support I am who I say I am" It's why Luke wrote his gospel as he tells us in the first few verses. I believe (now) that the Bible is the word of God.

Was I really so wrong in my approach?

 

[farouk]

Grazer:

Well, previously you said:

For some, the Bible is enough to answer those questions but it wasn't for me.

The path of faith is to trust God's Word, to trust Him at His Word. What you have just said seems to indicate that you do now believe His Word to be trustworthy,which is great. It's His Word, and not the objections of our minds, that should take precedence, I believe.

 

[Grazer]

Grazer:

Well, previously you said:



The path of faith is to trust God's Word, to trust Him at His Word. What you have just said seems to indicate that you do now believe His Word to be trustworthy,which is great. It's His Word, and not the objections of our minds, that should take precedence, I believe.

But if you have objections, isn't it best to get those addressed/answered? If your objection is to the accuracy of the Bible and you don't yet believe it is the word of God (which is the position I was in, you'll note the past tense of the bit you've quoted) where do you suggest people go?

 

[Ambrose]

I never said that Farouk. What I am saying is that God does not expect us to believe without evidence, it's why he has given us the Bible.

I am looking at it from where I was before I became a Christian. How do I know God keeps his promises? How do I know that he even exists? I had a more fundamental question; how could I trust the Bible? How did I know it was accurate and what was originally written? I drilled it deeper to "how do I know Jesus rose from the dead?" These were questions that I faced before I became a Christian and was not prepared to commit my life to someone without some sort of answers to them. I found a couple of Christians resorting to circular logic;

How do you know the Bible is accurate?
Because its the word of God
How do you know its the word of God?
Because the Bible says so
So how do you know the Bible is accurate?

Fortunately, I found Christians who were able to answer my questions or direct me to people who could. But I was not going to believe it was true simply because I wanted it to be or because it sounded good. I needed evidence and God provided me with it.

To say faith is believing without evidence removes the very base from which we can say atheism is wrong (and indeed vice versa) On that basis you can believe whatever you want and provide no justification for it. God has given us the Bible to say "these are my promises and this is the evidence to support I am who I say I am" It's why Luke wrote his gospel as he tells us in the first few verses. I believe (now) that the Bible is the word of God.

Was I really so wrong in my approach?

Heh, I didn't mean absolutely NO EVIDENCE, Just the kind that shows up under laws of physics. And I think there are even good apologetic books on that but reguardless. Some of the best evidence for it is the results on your life. You get serious results. And as I said before your POV changes. You make a new sense of things. And when you drop Christ you seem to not even notice it but the way you made sense of things before doesn't even make sense to you anymore.

 

[Grazer]

Heh, I didn't mean absolutely NO EVIDENCE, Just the kind that shows up under laws of physics. And I think there are even good apologetic books on that but reguardless. Some of the best evidence for it is the results on your life. You get serious results. And as I said before your POV changes. You make a new sense of things. And when you drop Christ you seem to not even notice it but the way you made sense of things before doesn't even make sense to you anymore.

Oh I completely agree with that