Christianity- Its such a simple faith how does it end up so convoluted?

[jasoncran]

yes you did. you made the claim by that quote and read that post so that its not taken out of context.

so is krishna God?

the names of God in the tanakh are different facets to the one who came. sadly the jews dont see that.

would God of the tanakh and or our bible. do what the muslims says. allah can at will despite what good works the muslim has done deny him entrance to heaven.

so is the bible the innerant word of God? or is it not? if so then kindly tell me how mohammed could be his prophet and also how any muslim who remains a muslim can make it to heaven.

otherwise lets ban and cease and decease with christendom and use what the first step of the twelve step program says
" i recognise that i am imperfect and have faults and acknowlegde this before man and God as UNDERSTAND him."

so a god of that could be rock. its the object of such worship that is important or is such statements by God in the old testament moot?

i am a jealous God who name is jealous.. i am the first and the last the king of isreal and beside me there is NONE other.

he just limited who is to be worshipped.by that statement, if its God that jesus claimed then how can this diety be allah?

i suggest reading the quran after you read the bible to see that err. i can post what i said from muslims sites and did so yesterday in the babylon thread.

do you think i like the rules?NO. but God made them and i have to live by them.i desire none go to hell.

that is like saying well the law of gravity is cruel people jump of cliffs by accident so we so change the rules so that they dont die. funny thing then, we all would float away.kinda works that way with heaven and hell. god is more then just love, justice as well is his nature.

 

[smaller]

yes you did. you made the claim by that quote and read that post so that its not taken out of context.

Jason, the only claim I made was to cite the scriptures stating the fact that satan blinds minds of unbelievers. I'm sure you know the scriptures? They are not 'my' claims. I believe those statements.

so is krishna God?

Who is krishna? I've never discussed krishna in my life, nor do I care to.

the names of God in the tanakh are different facets to the one who came. sadly the jews dont see that.

And that would be a long discussion. I accept the Words of the O.T. to be Gods Words where they are therein stated as such, and those they do think they follow. Their understanding is obviously darkened, and there are very scriptural reasons why they are so that scriptures again present quite clearly as not a cause of solely them. See again 2 Cor. 4:4 for reference. There are many other scriptural references from both O.T. and N.T. that show 'why' and 'how' that happened and still happens to them.

would God of the tanakh and or our bible. do what the muslims says. allah can at will despite what good works the muslim has done deny him entrance to heaven.

What 'I' said in regards to the Islamists is that the same Word of God (they adhere to the Pentatuech as part of their body of writings) has in fact caused a 'similar' problem for them as with the Jews. I believe Jesus taught perfectly in explaining how and why that is and His teachings help us understand what happened and happens to them specifically in regards to what Jesus taught about same.

so is the bible the innerant word of God? or is it not?

Every direct Word of God from the Prophets and the Law of the O.T. are inerrant Word of God, so as is every Word of Jesus Christ in the N.T. Gospels and other quotes stated to come from Jesus outside of the Gospels, such as those spoken to Saul on the road to Damascus or spoken to him in 2 Cor. 12 or to John in the Revelation. Those are all Gods Inerrant Words. On the logical order of priority, 'those Words' all take precedent over any other statements, for example, we do 'not' take Satan's words therein as 'inerrant.' The quotes themselves are accurate, but obviously the conclusions Satan might deploy are far from inerrant. Another example would be quotes therein from unbelievers (accurate quotes, errant conclusions) etc etc. Inerrant across the board from every statement therein is not a requirement, and can not be a requirement for obvious reasons. I do not accept the conclusions of, oh, let's say Haman of the O.T. to be inerrant. Then there is the added difficulties of Bibles who have translated the texts into paraphrased versions, meaning in short 'what they generally think' was said, and for me, I cannot accept many of those re-writes because they have basically butchered outright Gods Direct Words and 'changed them.' The NIV for example does a horrible job. It is assuredly NOT inerrant, but a concoction in many places. I wish I knew the Aramaic or Hebrew directly, but I don't. So I settle largely for the KJV as being the 'most accurate translation' for me, but is even the KJV inerrant? No. It is basically impossible to do an 'inerrant' translation. God confused the languages of people at the Tower of Babel and that fact persists with us all today on many levels.

if so then kindly tell me how mohammed could be his prophet and also how any muslim who remains a muslim can make it to heaven.

Mohammed had the Pentateuch and Mohammed had his personal reflections of same, just as every reader who read or has ever read same has. I believe that Paul (or the writer of Hebrews unknown if you prefer) has an excellent example of this phenomena and exactly how that works, right here:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This is what happens when everyone reads the Word. Their own individual hearts are therein reflected. Do I then expect everyone to have an identical and perfect reflection of same? Sorry, reality says that never happens. Why? Because we also know from the scriptures that we are 'all' IMperfect reflecTORS.

It is perfectly natural for imperfect reflectors to have imperfect reflectIONS. This should be the expectation, as it is the reality.

So did Mohammed have a Perfect Reflection? Absolutely NOT! Nor does anyone else for that matter. Again, on the order of priority, after Gods Words/those of Jesus Christ, The authority of the Apostles teachings comes next in line. Are all of those words inerrant in the same way as Gods/God in Christ? No. Even Paul admitted teaching not from Gods direct teachings, but from his own thoughts as he so stated.

otherwise lets ban and cease and decease with christendom and use what the first step of the twelve step program says
" i recognise that i am imperfect and have faults and acknowlegde this before man and God as UNDERSTAND him."

The matter is perhaps a little more interesting to some Jason.

so a god of that could be rock. its the object of such worship that is important or is such statements by God in the old testament moot?

I've never made such a statement nor do I believe in polytheism.

i am a jealous God who name is jealous.. i am the first and the last the king of isreal and beside me there is NONE other.

he just limited who is to be worshipped.by that statement, if its God that jesus claimed then how can this diety be allah?

Never said God was allah Jason. Don't have clue where you are trying to take this.

i suggest reading the quran after you read the bible to see that err. i can post what i said from muslims sites and did so yesterday in the babylon thread.

When I visit with Muslims, I try to meet them on the only common ground we have. Where else is there to go? They have the Pentateuch, I do as well. What do I find therein in 'their' behalves? This:

Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

And in case you missed it, that exactly happened. The above is where and how the entire Islamist nation came about. Trying to bash their heads in instantly with a Jesus stick coupled with a threat of them burning alive forever if they don't believe like me simply isn't in my repertoire of sharing with them. I prefer to meet them on the ground of love, as God Is Love. In that I may actually find some commonality and be able to share what Jesus taught. In this my hope is that Christ is formed in them, but only God in Christ can 'do that.' I am only a minor sharer of what I have received.

do you think i like the rules?NO. but God made them and i have to live by them.i desire none go to hell.

I have some very harsh things to say about this entire matter, but it would bring instant banning. I will leave it at at the fact that peoples hearts are reflected by The Word. What they reflect is clearly written across their lips and in their writings. Some people just have really really poor reflections. I do not hold those against them, but I do look for other scriptural sources of where certain reflections come from that may in fact not be 'from them.' I have had many experiences of devils in people address me, some startling. And that particular area has been opened up to me by God showing me in His Words and THEN showing me in real life. It's not always 'just man' speaking from a man. Those who are in operation with The Holy Spirit will have some interesting interactions in these regards.

that is like saying well the law of gravity is cruel people jump of cliffs by accident so we so change the rules so that they dont die. funny thing then, we all would float away.kinda works that way with heaven and hell. god is more then just love, justice as well is his nature.

To many teachings of these matters are juvenile and outright false. The bottom line Jason is this. Scriptures do undoubtedly teach that mankind is not alone. WE do have real enemies, and they are carried within our hearts. If any of us do not understand this fact, the chances of being a victim rise dramatically.

enjoy!

s

 

[jasoncran]

you are most ignorant of islam. islam doesnt follow the torah at all, they dont even acknowlege jacob as the son of issac or that isaac was the promised son of abraham! its abraham-isaac and ishmaheal.

show me your source on that claim.? i know better, first off i have to worry that i had to deny my heritage for fear of death in afghanistan. i made sure that no muslim in afghanistan knew i was a jew, they might kill me.

first off why then would the jews and arabs then hate each other? if they are soo much alike. you forget..

one last line.. he shall be agianst every man and every man agaisnt him. hmm sounds about right for the muslims. yes there peaceful muslims. but in general the way that mohammed got his revalation of the quran was by this

Is Allah A Messenger?

i have never heard any muslims state what you say in fact we had a muslim-american here deny the teachings of christ and also would say the jews had it wrong and they had no right to the land of isreal.

 

[smaller]

you are most ignorant of islam. islam doesnt follow the torah at all, they dont even acknowlege jacob as the son of issac or that isaac was the promised son of abraham! its abraham-isaac and ishmaheal.

Really, I would generally appreciate you not sticking words in my mouth. In sharing with Muslims, I share 'conceptually.' Not on the basis of jots and tittles. Conceptually, MANY of the 'general concepts' of the Pentateuch were 'ripped off' [copied] by Mohammed and filtered.

I did NOT mean that it was an identical translation by any means nor do I accept it as I would Gods Words, but again, many of the concepts they derive I can FIND common ground on IF I look for same.

A believer wanting to share is best served by finding commonality rather than brute force. Brute force seldom has any effect imo. Any common person unbeliever will naturally say in their hearts that we are people just as they are people. That is a simple truth that I appeal to.

s

 

[Bonairos]

Every direct Word of God from the Prophets and the Law of the O.T. are inerrant Word of God, so as is every Word of Jesus Christ in the N.T. Gospels and other quotes stated to come from Jesus outside of the Gospels, such as those spoken to Saul on the road to Damascus or spoken to him in 2 Cor. 12 or to John in the Revelation. Those are all Gods Inerrant Words. . .

. . .Again, on the order of priority, after Gods Words/those of Jesus Christ, The authority of the Apostles teachings comes next in line. Are all of those words inerrant in the same way as Gods/God in Christ? No.

I'm hoping to follow this thread. In order to do so, I need some clarity (as to know where a writer is coming from).

Am I correct to interpret you saying that only some of the words written in the bible are to be received as God's Word?

And in the order of priority you've mentioned, are you also saying there are levels of authority as well?


I'm hoping to follow and am seeking clarity.



Be blessed, Stay blessed, and be Bold!

 

[jasoncran]

Really, I would generally appreciate you not sticking words in my mouth. In sharing with Muslims, I share 'conceptually.' Not on the basis of jots and tittles. Conceptually, MANY of the 'general concepts' of the Pentateuch were 'ripped off' [copied] by Mohammed and filtered.

I did NOT mean that it was an identical translation by any means nor do I accept it as I would Gods Words, but again, many of the concepts they derive I can FIND common ground on IF I look for same.

A believer wanting to share is best served by finding commonality rather than brute force. Brute force seldom has any effect imo. Any common person unbeliever will naturally say in their hearts that we are people just as they are people. That is a simple truth that I appeal to.

s

you claim that they are the same, in that they have acess to God. and are in the fold, per here.

clarify. this

See 1 John 4:7 again for my view on this. I would dare say many Jews and Muslims do love God and some of them even love their neighbors as themselves. You would like to see them burn on this basis?

that says to me that they are serving the same God.

no sir, sharing for commanility as witness is one thing ,but the above says more then that.

i do that with the jews all day long, but i dare not say to members here that an unrepentent jew will be in heaven.
you have your own little version of love that is what i am adressing. you called one member anti-semetic for stating what was the truth on the jews of that time. and of today if they dont repent.

calling someone a false prophet isnt hate but telling it like it is.

you also confuse what some call dogmaticism with actually delination based on what the bible does say. today i find it hard pressed(yes those types are still around) but less and less of what you say.

i have attended many churches and i dont agree with them all. i have sat in a bible study where they taught in err on the hs. i stated my opinion on that but since the man was a child in christ and wanted to attend that church i didnt push the issue.

they arent pentacostal, but i am. they preach eternal security, i dont accept that. yet i cant say they arent in the fold. that is what the liberty to disagree is.

your matter isnt anywhere to the like of that. nowhere near. i have read and made sure what you say, and even stated it twice and only now have you changed, odd.

 

[Vic C.]

Topic got way off track and as a result, I deleted all off topic posts. :yes

Thanks for understanding.

 

[reba]

Re: Christianity- Its such a simple faith how does it end up so convoluted?


Because Vic can't be every where to moderate!

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Christianity- Its such a simple faith how does it end up so convoluted?


Because Vic can't be every where to moderate!

lol. surely my church could use his talents when we discuss eschatology.

 

[Vic C.]

totopic

 

[smaller]

I'm hoping to follow this thread. In order to do so, I need some clarity (as to know where a writer is coming from).

Am I correct to interpret you saying that only some of the words written in the bible are to be received as God's Word?

Just stating the obvious. Words from Satan for example or the words of the unsaved are certainly not 'inerrant Word' of God.

And in the order of priority you've mentioned, are you also saying there are levels of authority as well?

The Overall Authority of God/God in Christ's Words are THEE measure. The Apostles 'taught' from The Authority of The Words of God, but the Apostles themselves seldom stated direct NEW Word of God in the N.T. themselves. Where they did, they say just as the Prophets of the O.T; in effect: God Said. Few quotes of this nature are in the N.T. Most are in Revelation. So yes, there is a different approach. I'm certainly not deriding any of the words of the Apostles, but those are primarily practical applications, teachings, understandings and elaborations of Gods Direct Words. They certainly did in no way 'contradict' The Authority Words, but their Words are simply not the same as The Direct Words of God.

Common sense Word understanding 101.

s

 

[smaller]

you claim that they are the same, in that they have acess to God. and are in the fold, per here.

clarify. this

Sorry Jason, I made 'no such claims.'

I do not however try to separate God from Love, as that is futile.

that says to me that they are serving the same God.

I've never made that claim Jason. I believe they, like everyone else have some concepts and conclusions that are good, and some that are not.

no sir, sharing for commanility as witness is one thing ,but the above says more then that.

What I write and what you hear appear to be two quite different matters. Often 'believers' get certain concepts locked in their minds and everything they hear echo's and bounces off what is in their own heads, and may not resemble the statements initially made whatsoever.

i do that with the jews all day long, but i dare not say to members here that an unrepentent jew will be in heaven.
you have your own little version of love that is what i am adressing. you called one member anti-semetic for stating what was the truth on the jews of that time. and of today if they dont repent.

If you say there are no repentent Jews, even apart from acknowledging Christ, you would be quite WRONG. Repentance is an O.T. teaching that they DO follow.

You might also consider that it is the WORDS OF CHRIST that are spoken in the O.T! So, you claim they are not 'following' or 'adhering' to Christ, but I would point out the obvious, that they ARE adhering to The Words of Christ in a limited form of understanding.

calling someone a false prophet isnt hate but telling it like it is.

I recognize the disobedient spirits of antisemitism Jason. Testing those voices should not be an issue. One dead giveaway is the screaming that follows the testing. That is a sign.

you also confuse what some call dogmaticism with actually delination based on what the bible does say. today i find it hard pressed(yes those types are still around) but less and less of what you say.

Not really sure what you are getting at there.

i have attended many churches and i dont agree with them all. i have sat in a bible study where they taught in err on the hs. i stated my opinion on that but since the man was a child in christ and wanted to attend that church i didnt push the issue.

I have sat under error in every church, every believer, and lived in error with my own false understandings, and still do, but just don't know it yet. I continually press. That is how I am led. Some people just don't know or care if they are in error and prefer to just set up camp and remain there. And some are hardline in error, period. Most people just don't spend a lot of time testing their own positions. There are those who do do not desire to be in any error, therefore they continually test their positions and continually study. I have had my nose in the Bible for 30+ years and I love every Word of God. But I understand that we "all" see in part without exceptions.

they arent pentacostal, but i am.

I spent enormous time in the pentacostal churches Jason, and practiced many of their understandings, speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc. etc. including a very short stint with the UPC crowd. I have put away most of what I learned therein as false, particularly with the UPC's and the name it, claim it and heal it crowd. False teachers abound in those sects. Ravenous wolves even in many.

they preach eternal security, i dont accept that. yet i cant say they arent in the fold. that is what the liberty to disagree is.

Pentacostals fall on both sides of that subject. I was in a home church, charismatic, for 4 years and the pastor was not OSAS and his wife was. That was when I struck out on my own to study these matters from every perspective, and landed solidly on OSAS, mostly from writings of L. Sperry Chafer who convinced me beyond any doubt.

your matter isnt anywhere to the like of that. nowhere near. i have read and made sure what you say, and even stated it twice and only now have you changed, odd.

Seriously, some of what you claim I stated doesn't exist. I do however believe that those who love are operating in the Spirit of God who IS Love, and I believe the scriptures teach that as well, as noted.

s

 

[Vic C.]

Smaller, can you PLEASE explain to us how this is on topic? I respectfully ask you stay on topic and engage Jason in a PM. 2