Christianity VS. Atheism

[turnorburn]

My last post until we get our pictures back.. :yes

Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes.'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella Is God good?'

'Er...yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student : 'From...God...'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes.'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student: 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them? There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice is confident: 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes.'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain.

'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'
'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'
'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do'
'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going Endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down!

Isn't this fresh and quite amazing all rolled into one?


Buy guys...

turnorburn

 

[kimberlyb0112]

Oh wow... this was awesome! I loved it! :D

 

[jasoncran]

execellent apologetics lesson

 

[Lance_Iguana]

When a person makes up an argument in there head against another person, said person will automatically underestimate or try and vilify the opposing party.


Here are some flaws with this.
1. This is set up to be discriminatory against atheists and sets out to make atheists look like fools. Its worded to make it look like the mean person of power ( atheist) versus the meek person ( the Christian). You can easily contort this entire story to reverse the scenario with a Mean old preacher versus a young Atheist. The story is a play on emotions and meant to boost self gratification and not actually pose an argument.

2. The student took terms such as Evil, Cold, Death, and Dark to not be in existence. He removes the words out of their context to fit his argument. Those terms do exist, but are mere ways to show a contrast,they do exist. The student used the terms in pure forms and not in their intended uses. This argument also assumes that the Professor would be submissive and automatically give up and not try and back up his claims. This is a very bad assumption and is a key flaw to this kind of story telling.

3. Now the student tries to show that science is just as much faith as religion. Here inlays the problem, especially the part about the professors Brain, unlike God the professor's brain can be tested to exist. The professor could be laid out and have his skull removed to see if he has a brain. We can't test for God, God even states we can't. God supposedly exists outside the laws of physics, therefore untestable.

4. The student puts force a monstrous error. The theory of Evolution dose not state we came from monkeys. Can anyone pull out a text book that says we came from monkeys? I've had to do reports and actually study evolution, Even read decent chunks and own Darwin's "Origin of species". The only thing evolution says is that man came from a common ancestor that went on to form the rest of the ape and Monkey families. Also the part about not seeing evolution in process, we have hundreds of reports of scientist observing animals and humans changing in our life time. There are 2 famous animals that have evolved into new species in the last century. That part of the story was completley made out of ignorance.

In short there is no way to prove or disprove religion. Both sides are based on faith, but the story goes beyond this. The story was a sad attempt at ridiculing a group of people's ideas, and was no more then a self pat on the back for not even accomplishing anything.

If this scenario happened in real life against a REAL atheist or agnostic, the outcome would not be the student getting rounding applause from his classmates. It would turn into a petty semantics argument with both sides in stalemate with a bunch of agnostics, Buddhists, and Levay Satanists laughing their buts off at the 2 sides.

 

[Heidi]

My last post until we get our pictures back.. :yes

Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes.'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella Is God good?'

'Er...yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student : 'From...God...'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes.'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student: 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them? There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice is confident: 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes.'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain.

'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'
'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'
'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do'
'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going Endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down!

Isn't this fresh and quite amazing all rolled into one?


Buy guys...

turnorburn

The so-called Christian in your hypothetical scenario is not a real Christian since he has no clue upon what his faith is built. We Christians have history to back us up. Atheists have their imaginations which makes their beliefs imaginary. They have to make up a history of their imaginations to deny that Jesus is Lord. ;)

 

[WX2009]

I've seen this before and I have to tell you that arguing with atheists is not that simple. They hate God, or rather the concept of God since they don't believe He exists. They believe His "character in fiction" to be the most immoral being ever conceived. They say He is a murderer, homophobe, rapist, barbarian, etc... Talking with them is very difficult and reminds me more and more of the best way to witness to others: "Use words if necessary".

 

[turnorburn]

I vote this thread be locked for the simple reason its the first time I've seen what could have turned into a 50 page discourse devoted to the flesh. :naughty

turnorburn

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I vote this thread be locked for the simple reason its the first time I've seen what could have turned into a 50 page discourse devoted to the flesh. :naughty

turnorburn

It couldn't be because I tore the argument to shreds now could it? This thread is weeks old and only has 7 posts.

Don't run away when people point out flaws.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I've seen this before and I have to tell you that arguing with atheists is not that simple. They hate God, or rather the concept of God since they don't believe He exists. They believe His "character in fiction" to be the most immoral being ever conceived. They say He is a murderer, homophobe, rapist, barbarian, etc... Talking with them is very difficult and reminds me more and more of the best way to witness to others: "Use words if necessary".

No, an Anti Theist hates religion. An Atheist doesn't believe in a god(s). Big difference. For instance Levay Satanism and Buddhism are atheists religions that actually teach against mindless hate and teaches to focus away from your hatred.

 

[azlan88]

Lance, I recommend a book to you that I picked up at the paper back shack. It's so awesome I could just kiss you, Lance! I'm so excited! I finished it in 2 days. Okay, it's called, The Question of God by Dr. Armand M. Nicholi, Jr.
The book places the arguments of Sigmund Freud, a devout atheist and the founder of PsychoAnalysis, and the arguments of C.S. Lewis, the pioneer writer of children's fiction and Christian apolagetics, side by side. Although the two may never have met, their writings appear to create an atmosphere of actual debate if carefully compiled, as the writer cleverly did.
The writer, from my point of view, does not seem to be a Christian, which mesmerized me because the author was so fair-minded in his presentation. He played devils advocate for both sides, and he also showed sympathy toward each, making arguments in their favor. As a non-Christian book that draws no conclusions outside the protagonists' mentalities, I think that you would enjoy this book just as much as I did.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Lance, I recommend a book to you that I picked up at the paper back shack. It's so awesome I could just kiss you, Lance! I'm so excited! I finished it in 2 days. Okay, it's called, The Question of God by Dr. Armand M. Nicholi, Jr.
The book places the arguments of Sigmund Freud, a devout atheist and the founder of PsychoAnalysis, and the arguments of C.S. Lewis, the pioneer writer of children's fiction and Christian apolagetics, side by side. Although the two may never have met, their writings appear to create an atmosphere of actual debate if carefully compiled, as the writer cleverly did.
The writer, from my point of view, does not seem to be a Christian, which mesmerized me because the author was so fair-minded in his presentation. He played devils advocate for both sides, and he also showed sympathy toward each, making arguments in their favor. As a non-Christian book that draws no conclusions outside the protagonists' mentalities, I think that you would enjoy this book just as much as I did.

I'll look it up. I'm almost done with Redwall, so I need a new book.

 

[True]

Really enjoyed that

Athiests are soooooo difficult to deal with. They act like they were there when the big bang happened and they witnessed the change from monkey to man!

God created the world... I dont believe in that science textbook I read at school... :shades

 

[joechrist]

Really enjoyed that

Athiests are soooooo difficult to deal with. They act like they were there when the big bang happened and they witnessed the change from monkey to man!

God created the world... I dont believe in that science textbook I read at school... :shades

Yeah you definately shouldn't believe in those science books. All they have are facts and evidence which does nobody any good.

 

[True]

Really enjoyed that

Athiests are soooooo difficult to deal with. They act like they were there when the big bang happened and they witnessed the change from monkey to man!

God created the world... I dont believe in that science textbook I read at school... :shades

Yeah you definately shouldn't believe in those science books. All they have are facts and evidence which does nobody any good.

Let me elaborate on what I said.

Yes I believe in what most of what textbooks say, gravity, the natural world, space, etc.

But when it comes to actually questioning the existence of God, with big bang and evolutionary theory, then thats when I close the book.

 

[turnorburn]

I would like to say this about that...

It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image... :naughty

 

[Carpathian]

You know what. I am going to take a chimpanzee and I am going to watch day by day his "evolutionary" progress. If I see no change then I will get another chimpanzee after that one has died and do the same. If I die before I see change i will pass this task down to my children. If they do not see any change they will pass the task down to their successors. If in a thousand years there's no change then the task will be repeated. When the rapture takes place and Jesus returns, it will be safe to say that a monkey can and never will, nor was he ever a man That or you can shave a chimpanzee of his hair and call him a man pick your poison.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

You know what. I am going to take a chimpanzee and I am going to watch day by day his "evolutionary" progress. If I see no change then I will get another chimpanzee after that one has died and do the same. If I die before I see change i will pass this task down to my children. If they do not see any change they will pass the task down to their successors. If in a thousand years there's no change then the task will be repeated. When the rapture takes place and Jesus returns, it will be safe to say that a monkey can and never will, nor was he ever a man That or you can shave a chimpanzee of his hair and call him a man pick your poison.

Humans didn't evolve from Chimps. Chimps aren't Monkeys. Youc could actually just save your time and energy and just review the "EXISTING" fosil records and DNA analisis.

You could do that, instead of swallowing the over abundent self ignorance the Anti evolutionists keep spitting out. Especially since biologists and genetisists have pretty much answered and shown observable evidence for every question taht supposedly stumps evolution. But they tend to ignore this and wallow in their ignorance of waht Evolutionary theory actually is.

 

[Carpathian]

You know what. I am going to take a chimpanzee and I am going to watch day by day his "evolutionary" progress. If I see no change then I will get another chimpanzee after that one has died and do the same. If I die before I see change i will pass this task down to my children. If they do not see any change they will pass the task down to their successors. If in a thousand years there's no change then the task will be repeated. When the rapture takes place and Jesus returns, it will be safe to say that a monkey can and never will, nor was he ever a man That or you can shave a chimpanzee of his hair and call him a man pick your poison.

Humans didn't evolve from Chimps. Chimps aren't Monkeys. Youc could actually just save your time and energy and just review the "EXISTING" fosil records and DNA analisis.

You could do that, instead of swallowing the over abundent self ignorance the Anti evolutionists keep spitting out. Especially since biologists and genetisists have pretty much answered and shown observable evidence for every question taht supposedly stumps evolution. But they tend to ignore this and wallow in their ignorance of waht Evolutionary theory actually is.

Nope. i want to SEE an ape evolve into a human being with my very own eyes. I don't want misinterpreted data analysis over a group of people who had oddly shaped skulls ( because no two skulls are alike). I want to witness this "phenomenon" with my own eyes. I want to see a monkey gradually become a fully aware human being. You can analise as much data as you like, if you can't see it, then how do you know it's there? In fact, why stop there. I should see if a fish can grow limbs for whatever purpose I can think of :biglol And who's gonna stop me? Muahahahahaaa

 

[Lance_Iguana]

You know. I could argue with you and point out how your entire statement makes aboslutley no sense and has nothing to do with the actual theory of evolution.


But instead I'll just sit here and laugh because if you really think that evolution says we came from monkies or fish that exist today grew limbs, then you are no threat to the actual theory.

Isn't it great when people who haven't even looked at the actual works of Darwin or any genetisit or biologist since him. Especially since the original theory took a 384 page book to just outline the basics, Think they can tear down evolution

 

[rEVOLVEr]

Nope. i want to SEE an ape evolve into a human being with my very own eyes. I don't want misinterpreted data analysis over a group of people who had oddly shaped skulls ( because no two skulls are alike). I want to witness this "phenomenon" with my own eyes. I want to see a monkey gradually become a fully aware human being. You can analise as much data as you like, if you can't see it, then how do you know it's there? In fact, why stop there. I should see if a fish can grow limbs for whatever purpose I can think of :biglol And who's gonna stop me? Muahahahahaaa

Nobody will stop you. Actually, I encourage you to study science so you can come up with arguments that are worth to listen to.