Christianity VS Islam - who started the battle?

[Classik]

I'm not very good at such histories as religious wars, mayhem etc

Christians and Muslims - who indeed started this battle (Which I have been informed will never end until Christ comes)

In almost all cases I've witnessed I noticed christians only did retaliate - defensively.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Muslims started the conflict, no matter how many lies the lying liberal media tries to feed you about "evil" crusaders invading "peaceful" Muslim lands. Islamic armies (originally led by Muhammad before his death) conquered one Christian land after another for centuries before Christendom fought back. The entire Middle East and Northern Africa were Christian before being conquered; Islamic armies had conquered Spain, Sicily, and even parts of Southern Italy before a Crusade was declared. Islam has been a violent expansionist religion from the very day of it's creation and it will be as long as it's permitted to exist.

 

[spartakis]

Well if you look back in history muslims came close to conquering the world, in which the Christian crusaders tried to fight against them. Napoleon put a end to the muslims. Thats a short answer would have to check notes but good study point for you.

 

[Scootaloo]

Who started it?

The lying heretic Muhammed. Who started the actual fighting? The Muslims, of course.

Christianity is a religion of peace, whereas Islam has a host of verses in its book about killing non-Muslims. I think we can see which side would actually strike a blow against the other.

 

[Classik]

I had a friend (he left about 2 weeks ago) who brashly believed that all the religious problems in the world were caused/started by Chrsitians. He says he's a muslim. Such brashness really got me upset!:bigfrown. I tried telling him that Chrsitians all these while have retaliated defensively - thus have never started a war. Who fed him all these lies?:dunno


I keep wondering what gave him such nerve! He said: "Islam is a religion of peace", and "Christianity isn't." he went on to say: "All the bombings and killings in the world were all started by Christians."

I asked him a simple question:
* All these terrorists (I mentioned some to him) are they Christians?
* Ever heard of Mohammed vs Ayesha (I gave little illustration)

You know what? He left!

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Who fed him these lies? The liberal media, for some reason they've decided to declare war on Christianity. And they're doing a fair job of enriching themselves in the process.

 

[reba]

Sarah's lack of trust in God might be a starting place..

Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

 

[Classik]

Sarah's lack of trust in God might be a starting place..

Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Maybe Ishmael was bitter with the father for ever driving them away.

 

[Balaclava]

630 Two yearsbefore Muhammad's death, he launched the Tabuk army of 30,000 men against theByzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed toattack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a falserumour. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home,but not before extracting 'agreements' from northern tribes of his protection ifthey paid a tax (jizya). That was thestart of the policy of a jizya tax for non-Muslims and a lesser zakat tax forMuslims and those who would convert to Islam.

632-634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr Muslims conquer for the first time thepolytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert toIslam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith andpaying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim army led by Khalid al-Walid, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Swordof Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616-17), conquer the cityof Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today's Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so manythat a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034-35).

636 Muslim army defeats Byzantines at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim army conquers Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah.

638 Muslim army conquers and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638-650 Muslim army conquers Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639-642 Muslim army conquers Egypt.

641 Muslim army in total control of Syria and Palestine.

643-707 Muslim army conquers North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affanis elected third Caliph.

644-650 Muslim army conquers Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran and Afghanistan

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled soldiers. Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin toMuhammad, who married the prophet's daughter Fatima through his first wifeKhadija, becomes Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad's wife, leads a rebellionagainst Ali for not avenging Uthman's assassination. Ali's partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governorof Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali's supporters acclaim his son Hasan asnext Caliph



673—678 Muslimarmy besieges Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Murder of Hussein (Muhammad's grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

710-713 Muslim army conquers the lower Indus Valley.

711-713 Muslim army conquers Spain.


732 The Muslim army stopped at the Battle of Poitiers by the Franks



789 Rise ofIdrisid amirs in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted toChristianity, is executed.

807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer housesand of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Muslim army of Aghlabids conquers Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim army captures Palermo, Italy and raids southern Italy

850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer

837-901 Muslim army of Aghlabids conquers Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher) isburned down by Muslims.

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

1003 The Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction again of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim.

1012 Beginning of al-Hakim's oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

 

[Balaclava]

Where did it start – whostarted it depends on what you accept as the first step to aggression. Prior or Tabuk Muhammad and his Muslims hadbeen fighting with everyone. BeforeMuhammad was born they were all fighting with each that was they way of life inthat region. Principally there wereJews, Christians and Pagans. Muhammad inventedIslam and formed the Muslim into a clan. His early battles were against the Pagans of Mecca; he formed allianceswith the Jews and the Christians in the region were not a threat. After many battles in and around Mecca and Medina when the losers were either killed, enslaved orconverted he turned his sights, in 630, towards the Christians. He might argue that the Christians started itby killing his Ambassador. Did they kill his Ambassador – nobody knows. But even if they did, did that then justifythe next 500 years during which they killed, enslaved or converted everyChristian they came across right across Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tabouk

http://www.rasoulallah.net/V2/document.aspx?lang=en&doc=1917

 

[nmwings]

The conflict between the Jews (and Christians) and the Palestinians today is the ancient Esau/Jacob conflict. Esau spurned his birthright & sold it to Jacob for a mere bowl of stew. Esau didn't think it was worth anything until it came time for Isaac's blessing, at which he decided to rant and rave that Jacob "stole" it. The Palestinians say, "This is not your land, this is OUR land! WE had the blessing, not you! YOU are a supplantor and a deceiver! WE'RE the true sons of Abraham, & the blessing belongs to US!" That is whay the Palestinians believe that everything the Jews receive is STOLEN!

The reason they want to kill both Christians and Jews is to get rid of the BIBLE, which is much more specific about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Land & the blessing than their Koran is. And to get rid of the Biblical Testimony, they must eliminate the people of the Book. Make no mistake.... what is happening in Israel right now will be in our backyard very soon!

 

[Classik]

Make no mistake.... what is happening in Israel right now will be in our backyard very soon!

Or maybe it's already happening.

 

[pHghost]

It is very hard to point a finger to the exact starting point of a war. Even before a war declaration, or the act of heading out with your army for the purpose of war, there has to be a reason behind it all to do it.

Let us say you are bullied in school every day -- psychologically. Then, one day, you lash out. Who started it, you or them? From a visible point of view, you did, but things are more complicated than that. So I think the best answer would be: we don't know.

To take it further though, it is also important to understand that not all wars that were presented as religious crusades, were indeed of primarily religious nature. Sure, it was the argument used to rationalize the wars, but a lot of the time the wars were about subjugating other nations -- the motives were more political than otherwise.

Now, I haven't read the whole Quran, but I went through a lot of the 'controversial' passages, and a lot of the violent content is very subject to context -- meaning that to a big part of the Muslim world, it does not condone violence at all. In the end, it is the same with the Bible, there are passages that can be taken out of context to make Christianity look as violent. So, if you meet a Muslim who tells you that Islam is not violent, I might very well be his honest interpretation of the Quran.

What IS historical fact though, is that the Christian crusaders were often more aggressive than the Muslim conquerors. When the Muslims took over Spain in the 8th century, and held it under their rule for several hundred years, they let the inhabitants practice Christianity or Judaism, if it was in a peaceful manner that didn't undermine the state (primarily meaning paying a special tax). But, during the reconquista, with the final victory of Christianity in Granada in 1492, Jews were thrown out at once and if at first it looked like the Muslims would have similar conditions as the Christians and Jews had before, the reality changed quite fast and the Christians were much more ruthless in their approach. Now as mentioned above -- the reasons were largely of political nature, rather than religious, and I used the terms 'Christians' and 'Muslims' mainly to show how easily these things can get muddled. It would be wrong to argue based on these events that Christianity is a religion of violence and non-tolerance, when you understand the whole picture, but it could easily and wrongly be argued so by someone who only sees a part of the truth.

We, for our part, as Christians, should try and come to understand those around us wholly, and to help them find their way to Jesus. Any violent approach is equivalent to following what those infamous verses in the Quran supposedly teach.

 

[Classik]

Let us say you are bullied in school every day -- psychologically. Then, one day, you lash out. Who started it, you or them. From a visible point of view, you did, but things are more complicated than that.

Brilliant!

 

[ChristianNationalist]

What IS historical fact though, is that the Christian crusaders were often more aggressive than the Muslim conquerors. When the Muslims took over Spain in the 8th century, and held it under their rule for several hundred years, they let the inhabitants practice Christianity or Judaism, if it was in a peaceful manner that didn't undermine the state (primarily meaning paying a special tax). But, during the reconquista, with the final victory of Christianity in Granada in 1492, Jews were thrown out at once and if at first it looked like the Muslims would have similar conditions as the Christians and Jews had before, the reality changed quite fast and the Christians were much more ruthless in their approach. Now as mentioned above -- the reasons were largely of political nature, rather than religious, and I used the terms 'Christians' and 'Muslims' mainly to show how easily these things can get muddled. It would be wrong to argue based on these events that Christianity is a religion of violence and non-tolerance, when you understand the whole picture, but it could easily and wrongly be argued so by someone who only sees a part of the truth.

More liberal lies. You simply make an off-hand comment about a "special tax" and leave it as no big thing. The FACTS are that non-muslims were brutalized. You had to pay extra taxes, you were not permitted to publicly pray, if you were accused of trying to convert a non-christian you were executed, you had absolutely no rights in court (which essentially means any muslim can take anything you own, wives and daughters included, and you can't do jack about it), and on, and on, and on.

 

[pHghost]

More liberal lies.

I feel you have your mind set and aren't willing to accept anything that challenges your view.

Plus, you are missing the point. I was in no way implying that Christians and Jews were handled with kit gloves. But they could stay, and many of them opted to, of their own free will. The situation is not black and white; you are talking about people and nations with their own agendas and motivations that played into the situation.

The main point is -- the 'Christians' were much worse when it came to the reversal of the situation and they came to power. Not only their stance against the Moors from whom they were taking the land back, but also against the Jews, you either converted to Catholicism, left the country or were executed. Don't forget that was the start of the Spanish Inquisition.

So your argument that the Moors were also bad doesn't in any way address the fact that the 'Christians' were in fact many times worse.

 

[JacobBoheme]

.
The battles that have taken place between certain segment of Christendom and Islamicate powers are not singular in origin. Lots of different reasons and lot's of different causes. At times Muslim rulers were to blame and at other times Christian rulers sparked it off. In some instances both sides were equally guilty of inciting war. Often it wasn't so much Christianity vs Islam as it was Christian rulers (and their armies) vs Muslim rulers. People warred for many of the same things back then that they do now- money, resources, power, etc..

 

[pHghost]

Thank you, JacobBoheme, for understanding what I'm driving at.

ChristianNationalist, I can honestly say I have not been brainwashed by media.

I have avoided TV for the past ten years, nor do I get my news from mainstream media outlets. I also grew up out of the US, and as such avoided the massage of that particular school system. I get my information through research on academic soil through verified historical sources.

The beginnings of the Spanish Inquisition are linked to the reconquista, like it or not. It spun off later and became infamous mainly for its hunting of heretics within Christianity itself, but you cannot completely discard their beginnings. But even if you did, as you mentioned yourself, the Inquisition was a horrible thing, despite being a construct of 'Christians.' They tortured people. How much more do you need to know?

You still aren't getting the point, in this discussion, and I am afraid also possibly in life. When it comes down to people, you cannot generalize and see things in black and white. You cannot say Christians are good/bad, and everyone else is bad/good. Things are more complicated. Look around you at Christians today. What are they like? Largely, they sin with every step they make. Why do you think that it was any different back then?

None of what I said is anti-Christian in any way, it is just acknowledging the fact that as humans we can make mistakes and do make mistakes. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, everyone. We get drunk with power, money, etc. and do horrible things.

Trying to pin it on the Muslims that they started all the violence is an act of self-righteousness, which is pride. And pride comes before the fall. Please be careful about that.

Do not forget the words of our savior, Jesus Christ:
Love your enemy.
Do not judge and you will not be judged.

These are very important (especially the second one) in our lives and I often find it shocking how many Christians forget about them so easily.

 

[Chris]

sorry for being simplistic but where does all chaos and hatred originate...Satan.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Thank you, JacobBoheme, for understanding what I'm driving at.

ChristianNationalist, I can honestly say I have not been brainwashed by media.

I have avoided TV for the past ten years, nor do I get my news from mainstream media outlets. I also grew up out of the US, and as such avoided the massage of that particular school system. I get my information through research on academic soil through verified historical sources.

The beginnings of the Spanish Inquisition are linked to the reconquista, like it or not. It spun off later and became infamous mainly for its hunting of heretics within Christianity itself, but you cannot completely discard their beginnings. But even if you did, as you mentioned yourself, the Inquisition was a horrible thing, despite being a construct of 'Christians.' They tortured people. How much more do you need to know?

You still aren't getting the point, in this discussion, and I am afraid also possibly in life. When it comes down to people, you cannot generalize and see things in black and white. You cannot say Christians are good/bad, and everyone else is bad/good. Things are more complicated. Look around you at Christians today. What are they like? Largely, they sin with every step they make. Why do you think that it was any different back then?

None of what I said is anti-Christian in any way, it is just acknowledging the fact that as humans we can make mistakes and do make mistakes. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, everyone. We get drunk with power, money, etc. and do horrible things.

Trying to pin it on the Muslims that they started all the violence is an act of self-righteousness, which is pride. And pride comes before the fall. Please be careful about that.

Do not forget the words of our savior, Jesus Christ:
Love your enemy.
Do not judge and you will not be judged.

These are very important (especially the second one) in our lives and I often find it shocking how many Christians forget about them so easily.

You apparently take disagreement as "not getting the point." I assure you, "I get it". And like it or not the inquisition was absolutely created to root out heretics within Christianity.

The answer to who started the battle is 100% Islam. The crusades didn't begin for more than 300 years after muslims began their conquest of Christian lands. If you want to start pointing at actions taken by crusaders centuries later as proof that Christians were ever bit as guilty for starting the conflict that's your business, but it isn't factually accurate.