Christians & Debt / God & Mammon

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

We all have most likely heard or are familiar with the saying from the Bible that teaches that the borrower is a slave to the lender. It also says that we are not to owe a man anything but love.............YET, the overwhelming majority and people who claim to adhere to the Bible as their spiritual roadmap are in debt up to their eyeballs. Why?

Remember the God vs. mammon story, and how one cannot serve 2 masters? I think people have a confused outlook on just what "mammon" represents and they do not recognize it despite the fact that the pursuit or let me better say the SERVICE of it is running most people's lives.

In life, what one is seeking/serving will be manifested by how one spends his/her time. Those serving "mammon" will have their time fully invested in "making a living", building a name for themselves, and accumulating more and more stuff.
Those seeking after "real" immortality will be spending time investing in others and will be more connected to people than to stuff.

 

[Strangelove]

But...?....?....?....Joel Osteen says that God wants to bless me financially and make me prosper...?...?...and he has the biggest church in the world so.....:

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So.......................is financing the purchase of stuff sinful in the eyes of the Lord?

 

[Alabaster]

We all have most likely heard or are familiar with the saying from the Bible that teaches that the borrower is a slave to the lender. It also says that we are not to owe a man anything but love.............YET, the overwhelming majority and people who claim to adhere to the Bible as their spiritual roadmap are in debt up to their eyeballs. Why?

Remember the God vs. mammon story, and how one cannot serve 2 masters? I think people have a confused outlook on just what "mammon" represents and they do not recognize it despite the fact that the pursuit or let me better say the SERVICE of it is running most people's lives.

In life, what one is seeking/serving will be manifested by how one spends his/her time. Those serving "mammon" will have their time fully invested in "making a living", building a name for themselves, and accumulating more and more stuff.
Those seeking after "real" immortality will be spending time investing in others and will be more connected to people than to stuff.

I agree with you.

 

[reba]

We all have most likely heard or are familiar with the saying from the Bible that teaches that the borrower is a slave to the lender. It also says that we are not to owe a man anything but love.............YET, the overwhelming majority and people who claim to adhere to the Bible as their spiritual roadmap are in debt up to their eyeballs. Why?

Remember the God vs. mammon story, and how one cannot serve 2 masters? I think people have a confused outlook on just what "mammon" represents and they do not recognize it despite the fact that the pursuit or let me better say the SERVICE of it is running most people's lives.

In life, what one is seeking/serving will be manifested by how one spends his/her time. Those serving "mammon" will have their time fully invested in "making a living", building a name for themselves, and accumulating more and more stuff.
Those seeking after "real" immortality will be spending time investing in others and will be more connected to people than to stuff.

Yup That is what the Word of Faith folks do. Where your treasure is they may your heart be also.

 

[Alabaster]

Yup That is what the Word of Faith folks do. Where your treasure is they may your heart be also.

What is it you think Word of Faith people do?

 

[jasoncran]

balence, balence. so lets define what is rich and what is poor. since the most likeliest poorest in comparison to us that dont live in thailand.

strangelove is the poorest therefore we fat rich wealthy americans and the canadian must repent

having said that then we all must become homeless and sell all give all to sl

now then wealth is relative and also the poor do lust for money and i have seen the wealthy give much away

its a matter of the heart

which one of you will work for free if you have a talent that can make you a ton? and it not affect your walk as truth be told you would life a simple life.

i am not rich but i need to change my heart and be more giving.

in fact i'm sure that reba being a californian makes more money then i do. she has to as the cost of living is higher there.

 

[reba]

What is it you think Word of Faith people do?

In life, what one is seeking/serving will be manifested by how one spends his/her time. Those serving "mammon" will have their time fully invested in "making a living", building a name for themselves, and accumulating more and more stuff.

Just my opinion :waving

 

[reba]

in fact i'm sure that reba being a californian makes more money then i do. she has to as the cost of living is higher there.

To old to work retired!

 

[jasoncran]

i have seen single bedroom apartments that cost more to rent then i pay for my house

1000 plus a month and that was in the 80's

 

[Adstar]

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Good words there


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

This text from Matthew 6 says it all.

<SUP>

<SUP>24</SUP> ‘No one can slave for two masters;
You won’t care for one but love the other,
Or you’ll stick with that one, and the other despise…
You can’t slave for God and for wealth!
<SUP>25</SUP> This is why I tell you not to worry,
About your lives and the things that you eat ---
Or about your bodies and what you will wear.
Isn’t [your] life more important than food,
And [your] body more important than clothes?
<SUP>26</SUP> ‘Pay attention to the birds in the sky;
For, they don’t plant seeds or harvest,
Nor do they put things in stores;
Yet, your Father in heaven also feeds them.
And are you not [greater than] they are?
<SUP>27</SUP> So, which of you can through worry,
Add a smidgen to your lives?
<SUP>28</SUP> ‘When it comes to clothes, why [should you] worry?
Learn from the lilies in the fields,
And from the way that they grow.
For, they don’t work or make cloth;
<SUP>29</SUP> But, I tell you this:
Not even Solomon in all of his glory,
Was dressed as well as are they.
<SUP>30</SUP> So, if God so well dresses plants in the fields
(Which are here today and thrown in the oven tomorrow),
Wouldn’t He rather clothe you…
You with so little faith?
<SUP>31</SUP> ‘So, never be worried and ask:
What will we eat and drink,
And what will we wear?
<SUP>32</SUP> For, these are the things that the nations chase after.
But your Father in heaven already knows,
That you need all these things.
<SUP>33</SUP> ‘Put first the Kingdom and righteousness,
Then all these things will be given to you.

I believe that our problem is a lack of trust in God making provision for our needs. We feel we have to spend our time in pursuit of our wants and in paying for our needs as if God won't take care of that for us provided that we seek first the Kingdom and righteousness.</SUP>

 

[JohnEboy1983]

While Christians should try to avoid getting in debt, we must also take a closer look at things. I will admit I have a mortgage payment every month and a car payment every month for my loans, so I am a debtor, however I am also an investor. The bible tells us to be good stewards of our money and to invest. By buying a home I am actually investing into something that can profit or grow and not throw my money away down the drain. When I was renting, I was throwing away money every month and it was relatively close to what I am paying on my mortgage. As far as my car it is also an investment and works good for the glory of God. I have reliable means of transportation and I can also use this investment to bless somebody else by a car ride or something similar. When I bought a junker car, I spent money fixxing up the car all the time. Having an unreliable car can actually cause you to lose your job if its making you late all the time. So while I must work to maintain these things, I would also have to work to maintain paying rent or fixxing up a car.

So in actuality, we all have to have our time invested in making a living, unless you either inherited a wealthy inheritance, retired, or mooch off other people. I would disagree that this would be called serving mammon. I know God is my provider and not my company. I trust in God to provide for me daily and not my job.

Many of us are not like Abraham or Job, where we have all these properties or houses or possesions where they are all paid off and owned completely. Sometimes life brings adversity and while debt should be avoided when neccessary, it sometimes is unavoidable if your roof gives way, your dog gets sick, or your water heater goes out, etc. If its taking a loan to go buy an uneccessary toy, then yes its probably a foolish idea. I just know I prayed over buying this house and it was the last house I was going to consider buying or I would of stayed in an apartment and I ended up getting the house, so I stay in faith that God wanted me have it and that its an investment that I will either fully own someday or possibly sell off at a profit someday. I was also grounded in good church and met some good people that I would not have done had I not moved to this house. But I do agree that most loans should be avoided if possible.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

While Christians should try to avoid getting in debt, we must also take a closer look at things. I will admit I have a mortgage payment every month and a car payment every month for my loans, so I am a debtor, however I am also an investor. The bible tells us to be good stewards of our money and to invest. By buying a home I am actually investing into something that can profit or grow and not throw my money away down the drain. When I was renting, I was throwing away money every month and it was relatively close to what I am paying on my mortgage. As far as my car it is also an investment and works good for the glory of God. I have reliable means of transportation and I can also use this investment to bless somebody else by a car ride or something similar. When I bought a junker car, I spent money fixxing up the car all the time. Having an unreliable car can actually cause you to lose your job if its making you late all the time. So while I must work to maintain these things, I would also have to work to maintain paying rent or fixxing up a car.

So in actuality, we all have to have our time invested in making a living, unless you either inherited a wealthy inheritance, retired, or mooch off other people. I would disagree that this would be called serving mammon. I know God is my provider and not my company. I trust in God to provide for me daily and not my job.

Many of us are not like Abraham or Job, where we have all these properties or houses or possesions where they are all paid off and owned completely. Sometimes life brings adversity and while debt should be avoided when neccessary, it sometimes is unavoidable if your roof gives way, your dog gets sick, or your water heater goes out, etc. If its taking a loan to go buy an uneccessary toy, then yes its probably a foolish idea. I just know I prayed over buying this house and it was the last house I was going to consider buying or I would of stayed in an apartment and I ended up getting the house, so I stay in faith that God wanted me have it and that its an investment that I will either fully own someday or possibly sell off at a profit someday. I was also grounded in good church and met some good people that I would not have done had I not moved to this house. But I do agree that most loans should be avoided if possible.

I hear what you're saying, and it makes sense.
One issue that we today need to face is that our grandparents also had bills and obligations, but rarely had debt and they spent less time working and more time together than we do today. At that time, the divorce rate was lower, the family unit was stronger and more connected, and there was less of an emphasis on stuff.
We could benefit from the mindset of those who came before who believed that if you did not have the money to pay for something, you shouldn't finance it. Think about how much closer families would be and how much money people could save if the kids stayed with the parents rent free a few extra years at the beginning of their working lives and saved their money instead of getting a job, then financing a nice new car and renting an expensive apartment.
What we fail to realize is that the reason that prices of homes and cars have drastically risen is because of financing. Financing has allowed more people who really cannot afford homes to compete in the buyer's market thus incresing demand which has had a direct affect on prices and the only ones who truly benefit are the bankers who have made usury their business. (DO you recall how God feels about usury?)

 

[JohnEboy1983]

I hear what you're saying, and it makes sense.
One issue that we today need to face is that our grandparents also had bills and obligations, but rarely had debt and they spent less time working and more time together than we do today. At that time, the divorce rate was lower, the family unit was stronger and more connected, and there was less of an emphasis on stuff.
We could benefit from the mindset of those who came before who believed that if you did not have the money to pay for something, you shouldn't finance it. Think about how much closer families would be and how much money people could save if the kids stayed with the parents rent free a few extra years at the beginning of their working lives and saved their money instead of getting a job, then financing a nice new car and renting an expensive apartment.
What we fail to realize is that the reason that prices of homes and cars have drastically risen is because of financing. Financing has allowed more people who really cannot afford homes to compete in the buyer's market thus incresing demand which has had a direct affect on prices and the only ones who truly benefit are the bankers who have made usury their business. (DO you recall how God feels about usury?)

The times are so much more different than the days of our grandparents. The world is so sped up these days and much more demanding. It used to be hardly anybody worked the weekends or nights or this forced overtime, and now its a normal thing for many places to be open 24 hours a day. The days of our grandparents have passed away and its a new age we are living in now. I am a truck driver and you would not believe how many cars I see driving around at midnight - 2am in the morning. Sometimes I wonder if people ever go to bed anymore? If they are on a regular schedule, they must sacrifice tons of sleep. Many people these days move out when they hit 18. Again, another change with the ages. You are right as it would be wiser to stay with the parents a few extra years and build up bit of money so you can pay things off or throw down a big down payment on something. I had that chance when I was younger to stay at home and build up some money but was a bit foolish and didnt, however, the past is the past and I wont dwell on that. Many young people these days cant stay at home after they get out of school and build up money because they go to college and it requires lots of work. Even after college, most people probably get out in the mid twenties and are pressured to start a life of their own and not live with their parents until they are nearly thirty. I know the pressure was there for me. Also, many parents may be very pressuring or not very supporting of their children, forcing them out early on. Some people really just dont have the chance nor desire to do that.

Usury is how the banks and loan agents make their profit. How else would they stay in business? If you are going to get a loan you should get the lowest interest rate you can find. I have seen people pay 20-30% interest on loans which is just killer. Even the low 5.50% I have can add up big over time, I know. If one has to provide for a family(which in my case I dont) they are pretty much forced to either rent an apartment/house or buy a house. Those are pretty much the only options out there. Remember there is scripture also that says one who does not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[jasoncran]

well said

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

As christians, I believe the issue comes down to whether we will trust the Lord and have the faith to do things His way or will we succome to the pressures of the world. Admittedly, it is tough! We see a changing society, we feel the pressures as well, byt we must remember that it is still our God who sits on the throne and He changes not! If we resolve to trust in the Lord wholeheartedly and not lean on our own understanding, but instead acknowledge Him and strive to do His will in all we do letting Him direct our paths, we could change the world for the better!
I really believe this area is an area where our faith is tested and we must decide whether we're gonna just be in the world or whether we will succome to the pressure and become OF the world.

 

[stovebolts]

Great topic Truth over Tradition! Hey, do you listen to Dave Ramsey?

It's funny because I grew up dirt poor and the basic's that Dave teaches are the same thing my Mom taught me that she learned from her Mom. :yes However, now that I have 2 nickles to rub together (which my Mom never had) Dave has given us some pretty solid advice on where to put it.

But to be perfectly honest, if one has a roof over their head and food in the fridge for tomorrow, by biblical standards that person would be considered rich.

1 Timothy 6 <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29806">17</sup> Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29807">18</sup> Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

I believe we are blessed, so that we can be a blessing to others. But I think you nailed it earlier when you said that people who are consumed with wealth are the ones who are always seeking it.

Point in case. I've always believed that it was more important to do what you like to do and live within your means, than to have a job that you didn't really like, but paid well and if by chance you could get a job doing something you really liked, and it paid well, then that's a double bonus. But if one wants to get in a line of business for no other reason that it pays well... then that's the wrong reason to do something. Regardless, we should all live just below our means, and learn to be generous with the rest of it.

I mean, we all have to work, or as Paul writes, SB version "If you don't work, ya don't eat" but we shouldn't work for the material rewards, we should work for God doing his work wherever we find ourselves. By this I mean we are letters for others to read wherever we are, and what ever we do.

But yeah, people get sidetracked with material wealth and get into debt when they shouldn't. I think it's called greed cause it's all centered not on what God has blessed us with, but rather, "I want this" and they fall into the trap of 30 year mortgages with $1,000 down and maxed out $20,000 credit card debt. What a waste of resources IMHO.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Great topic Truth over Tradition! Hey, do you listen to Dave Ramsey?

It's funny because I grew up dirt poor and the basic's that Dave teaches are the same thing my Mom taught me that she learned from her Mom. :yes However, now that I have 2 nickles to rub together (which my Mom never had) Dave has given us some pretty solid advice on where to put it.

But to be perfectly honest, if one has a roof over their head and food in the fridge for tomorrow, by biblical standards that person would be considered rich.

1 Timothy 6 <SUP id=en-NIV-29806 class=versenum>17</SUP> Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. <SUP id=en-NIV-29807 class=versenum>18</SUP> Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

I believe we are blessed, so that we can be a blessing to others. But I think you nailed it earlier when you said that people who are consumed with wealth are the ones who are always seeking it.

Point in case. I've always believed that it was more important to do what you like to do and live within your means, than to have a job that you didn't really like, but paid well and if by chance you could get a job doing something you really liked, and it paid well, then that's a double bonus. But if one wants to get in a line of business for no other reason that it pays well... then that's the wrong reason to do something. Regardless, we should all live just below our means, and learn to be generous with the rest of it.

I mean, we all have to work, or as Paul writes, SB version "If you don't work, ya don't eat" but we shouldn't work for the material rewards, we should work for God doing his work wherever we find ourselves. By this I mean we are letters for others to read wherever we are, and what ever we do.

But yeah, people get sidetracked with material wealth and get into debt when they shouldn't. I think it's called greed cause it's all centered not on what God has blessed us with, but rather, "I want this" and they fall into the trap of 30 year mortgages with $1,000 down and maxed out $20,000 credit card debt. What a waste of resources IMHO.

AMEN!

and yes, Good Ole Dave has been a lifesaver for many.

 

[stovebolts]

Well, your topic has been very refreshing and somthing IMO that needs to be said for sure :yes

I hope that I don't side rail your topic, and if I do, please let me know and we can start a new one.

But anyway, I don't make a lot of cash, although we do well for ourselves, but even when I was a roofer I noticed that we were living better than some of our friends who made literally three times the amount we made. When they filed bankruptcy, and then lost their houses (before the recent crash) while still having their jobs, well, I just couldn't grasp it.

I don't understand this need to have everything now, but it sure drives financing doesn't it. Years ago I bought an 42" LCD w/ a blue ray player and a complete surround sound system and I paid cash for every piece of it from some over time I had put in. My son said, "I've got a 50" and I replied, "But mine is paid for". A year later he filed bankruptcy. It makes me sick. We taught him better than that, but the lure to have everything now was to much of a temptation. Reminds me of drugs in a way.

When I was younger, you couldn't get the credit that was recently accessable to people who shouldn't have gotten that much credit. But not only that, but it's just insane to pay that much interest on such a small purchase.

I get the idea that credit was so loose, people forgot the value of a dollar.

Sorry for the ramble