Christians walking in the flesh

[stranger]

OP Christians walking in the flesh

One of the issues that has interested me and seen often enough in recent treads is:

What is the status and condition of a Christian who walks in the flesh?



Here are some of questions/comments on this:

1. I would argue that we cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.

2. What does sin do to the body of Christ?

3. What does sin do to the Christian who sins?

4. How does sin affect the Holy Spirit living in us?

What is the status and condition of a Christian who walks in the flesh?

If anyone wants clarification feel free to comment.

 

[needtotalk]

Paul spoke to the Corinthians in I Cor 3:1-4 about them still acting worldly and not ready for the meat of the word yet, that they were like infants who needed the milk of the word. Evidently there were divisions, jealousy, and quarrelings. But he still addressed them in chapter 1:2-3 "sanctified and called to be holy", and "grace and peace to you from God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ." The Corinthians had a lot of immorality that needed to be addressed by Paul, but he treated them as brothers and sisters in Christ.

My thought is that those Christians who are worldly and living in a fleshly way need to be first affirmed they are justified and no condemnation rests on them because Christ is in them (Romans 8:1). But they need to see the err of their ways, the consequences of sin ("the wages of sin is death" - Romans 6:23). They should be called to repent, but in a loving way. Paul struggled to bring about this mess of a church out of its shambles, but never condemned it.

One last point I'll make, is that God is more impressed with a sinful man who seeks a relationship with Him than a man trying and trying and putting effort forth in performance based thinking toward overcoming sin, but not having an intimate relationship with his Heavenly Father.

 

[Stephanus]

For this question i would suggest you romans 8. Here describes Paul, what means to be in flesh and to be in spirit. We are all of "flesh" nature, because we cant live without to sin. But verse 5 is an indirect question to everyone: what is my motivation in this life: to do what God wants of me or to do my own desires? If u hear God's voice and follows Him, His words - without filtering them - you are His child, otherwise you are only a beholder. Living with God means to do everything what God wants.

 

[Drew]

1. I would argue that we cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.

I agree. I think Paul is clear in Romans, if not elsewhere, that we have escaped the "Adamic" state. However, and I suspect that you agree with me on this although I am not sure, we can indeed choose to "go back" to the Adamic state.

 

[Adullam]

I believe that exceedingly few know any other walk than that of in the power of the flesh. It seems all the modern doctrines are geared towards saving the a man according to his old sin nature. We can never stop sinning, they say, referring to the old man and their unbelief in another way that is alive to holiness. The church at large seems to only tolerate human reasoning.... a carnal perspective.

So today we have the emergence of the "carnal Christian." This is also called sinful sainthood. In this scheme a man can remain as he ever was but is somehow made invisible to God through a magical Jesus cloak. Sounds like Greek mythology.

So what shall we say for those Christians (us) who walk not in the power of the resurrected Christ, but according to the flesh? This is a very deep problem. The enemy has made many barriers to the victorious life. We have accepted these barriers as biblical doctrines, but they accomplish the very opposite of liberating us...they further enslave us.

Jesus Christ came to set us free. Not free to sin, but the freedom of not having to sin.

We need the Holy Spirit AND the close fellowship of other disciples in a tightly knit community in order to be obedient to the gospel.

 

[stranger]

Adullam wrote:

I believe that exceedingly few know any other walk than that of in the power of the flesh.

Sorry to say it, and I wish it were otherwise - what you have said is true. I believe that also and I don't exclude myself from the verdict.

It seems all the modern doctrines are geared towards saving the a man according to his old sin nature. We can never stop sinning, they say, referring to the old man and their unbelief in another way that is alive to holiness. The church at large seems to only tolerate human reasoning.... a carnal perspective.

Excuses are made left, right and center. If I remain a sinner all the days of my life and Jesus said : anyone who sins is a slave of sin, and I was a slave of sin before I was saved, and now I am a slave ofd sin, then what sort of salvation is being peddled?

So today we have the emergence of the "carnal Christian." This is also called sinful sainthood. In this scheme a man can remain as he ever was but is somehow made invisible to God through a magical Jesus cloak. Sounds like Greek mythology.

Sinful sainthood - I haven't heard that expression before but I know what you are saying - it fits in with miserable sinner theology.

So what shall we say for those Christians (us) who walk not in the power of the resurrected Christ, but according to the flesh? This is a very deep problem. The enemy has made many barriers to the victorious life. We have accepted these barriers as biblical doctrines, but they accomplish the very opposite of liberating us...they further enslave us.

I look foreward to such input and can anticipate massive reaction and opposition- it is a mindset that lowers the expectations of God's people - as a man believes so he is - if you remain a sinner all the days of your life then you remain a slave to sin. I call this 'living in sin' and regretfully it has become the Christian norm.

Jesus Christ came to set us free. Not free to sin, but the freedom of not having to sin.

We need the Holy Spirit AND the close fellowship of other disciples in a tightly knit community in order to be obedient to the gospel.

Yes, I have tasted freedom from sin and know it is possible - and it a totally and radically different to living in the flesh. Support of a fellowship necessary. Thanks for the comments.

 

[stranger]

For this question i would suggest you romans 8. Here describes Paul, what means to be in flesh and to be in spirit. We are all of "flesh" nature, because we cant live without to sin. But verse 5 is an indirect question to everyone: what is my motivation in this life: to do what God wants of me or to do my own desires? If u hear God's voice and follows Him, His words - without filtering them - you are His child, otherwise you are only a beholder. Living with God means to do everything what God wants.

Hi Stephanus,

Thanks for your comments. Yes Romans 8 is a good source for teaching as well as other chapters. Hopefully this tread, which focuses on Christians walking in the flesh, will be a profitable discussion for all concerned.

When you say 'we can't live without sin' are you saying we cannot be free from sin? Is that a Lutheran view?

 

[stranger]

Paul spoke to the Corinthians in I Cor 3:1-4 about them still acting worldly and not ready for the meat of the word yet, that they were like infants who needed the milk of the word. Evidently there were divisions, jealousy, and quarrelings. But he still addressed them in chapter 1:2-3 "sanctified and called to be holy", and "grace and peace to you from God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ." The Corinthians had a lot of immorality that needed to be addressed by Paul, but he treated them as brothers and sisters in Christ.

My thought is that those Christians who are worldly and living in a fleshly way need to be first affirmed they are justified and no condemnation rests on them because Christ is in them (Romans 8:1). But they need to see the err of their ways, the consequences of sin ("the wages of sin is death" - Romans 6:23). They should be called to repent, but in a loving way. Paul struggled to bring about this mess of a church out of its shambles, but never condemned it.

One last point I'll make, is that God is more impressed with a sinful man who seeks a relationship with Him than a man trying and trying and putting effort forth in performance based thinking toward overcoming sin, but not having an intimate relationship with his Heavenly Father.

Hi needtotalk,

Yes if love departed from the Apostle Paul in any of his dealings with the churches - walking in the flesh would make an enterance. That you mention the Coritnthian church is interesting because what would be an otherwise abstract discussion - can be seen in the day to day life of Christians in the church. The most surprising response of the Apostle Paul that I know of to someone walking in the flesh is found in:

1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

while Paul also took other more gentle measures this example shows that walking in the flesh was regarded as very seriously - to the man involved but also to the body of Christ v6. So while Paul would have to be loving - it is tough love. By the way what about someone who is thrown out of a Church and excommunicated?

 

[samuel]

I believe that exceedingly few know any other walk than that of in the power of the flesh. It seems all the modern doctrines are geared towards saving the a man according to his old sin nature. We can never stop sinning, they say, referring to the old man and their unbelief in another way that is alive to holiness. The church at large seems to only tolerate human reasoning.... a carnal perspective.

So today we have the emergence of the "carnal Christian." This is also called sinful sainthood. In this scheme a man can remain as he ever was but is somehow made invisible to God through a magical Jesus cloak. Sounds like Greek mythology.

So what shall we say for those Christians (us) who walk not in the power of the resurrected Christ, but according to the flesh? This is a very deep problem. The enemy has made many barriers to the victorious life. We have accepted these barriers as biblical doctrines, but they accomplish the very opposite of liberating us...they further enslave us.

Jesus Christ came to set us free. Not free to sin, but the freedom of not having to sin.

We need the Holy Spirit AND the close fellowship of other disciples in a tightly knit community in order to be obedient to the gospel.

Its called the church of the Laodiceans, read Revelation 3:14-19.

 

[stranger]

1. I would argue that we cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.

I agree. I think Paul is clear in Romans, if not elsewhere, that we have escaped the "Adamic" state. However, and I suspect that you agree with me on this although I am not sure, we can indeed choose to "go back" to the Adamic state.

Hi Drew,

That's a very interesting point. At this stage I am inclined to say yes though not without qualification. It has to do the covenant obligations, both God's and man's, when man breaks the covenant of grace in Christ by sining and therefore walking in the flesh.

If we consider Adam and assume that Adam walked in the Spirit (as created). After Adam's sin he changed 'states' to walking in the flesh. The reason I use him as an example is that he was without sin -just as Jesus 'who knew no sin became sin that we might become the righteousness of God'.

To me this PROVES that man has an ability, an innate capability to change states from Spirit to Flesh and it follows (from the extraordinary lengths God has gone to to redeem man) that man can change states, through redemption, from Flesh to Spirit. Otherwise God cannot redeem man and walking in the Spirit would be impossible.


take care

 

[Stephanus]

When you say 'we can't live without sin' are you saying we cannot be free from sin? Is that a Lutheran view?

I dont know if it is a Lutheran view, im not a Lutheran. What i mean is, even the closest men to God had a situation where they did a sin. People have two sides: one is a flesh side which "Iam"-centrical. We do have it as long as we live on this earth in our body. I cant say "the real christ is free from sin", but cant say "the real christ is not free from sin" too. Because real christians hear God's voice and try to do His will, in all things. But they stay not perfect. Look at Jer 8.4-5.

 

[Ahuli]

OP Christians walking in the flesh

One of the issues that has interested me and seen often enough in recent treads is:

What is the status and condition of a Christian who walks in the flesh?



Here are some of questions/comments on this:

1. I would argue that we cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.

2. What does sin do to the body of Christ?

3. What does sin do to the Christian who sins?

4. How does sin affect the Holy Spirit living in us?

What is the status and condition of a Christian who walks in the flesh?

If anyone wants clarification feel free to comment.

That's a contradiction of terms. When we walk with Christ, the world must stay behind because it is enmity against HIM. Therefore, we must pray without ceasing, understand our weaknesses, and avoid those things that prey on them.

 

[elijah23]

1. I would argue that we cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.

I don’t think we are ever in Adam, are we?

2. What does sin do to the body of Christ?

I think it causes it pain.

3. What does sin do to the Christian who sins?

I’ve heard it separates us from the Lord.

4. How does sin affect the Holy Spirit living in us?

I imagine sin is painful to the Holy Spirit.

What is the status and condition of a Christian who walks in the flesh?

By “in the flesh,†do you mean “in fleshly desire†or do you mean “as a human being†(or something else)?