Church Attendance Is Dying. Here’s What’s Next.

[WIP]

It's true, the economic squeeze affects building the Church. Unemployment figures are low, but say nothing about the terms of employment or how it compares to the cost of living. There is no middle class; there are working poor, and rich. Those still in between are so few as to no longer be a "class"

Actually, I don't agree with this. Here's my thought. We make the bed we sleep in. We have become an entitlement society. We set ourselves up for failure and then blame the economy, government, the wealthy, and yes even the poor for our own demise. We don't live within our means but jump on the bandwagon of debt unwilling to accept where we're at. We believe we deserve the best and all cost and are unwilling to accept anything less or work up to a better thing.

I'll give some examples.
Next time you're driving around, take notice of the number of rusted out old jalopies on the road. Now think back to when you were in your early 20's and the first few vehicles you owned. The first three cars I owned were rust buckets that basically ran well enough to get me from point A to point B in relative safety. My forth one needed work so a friend and I learned how to do some DYI bodywork. It wasn't showroom but it turned out pretty nice.

What size is your home? Now, think back to when you were growing up. What size was that home? The average size home in the United States today is roughly double the square footage of the average home in the 1970's. In addition, the average size family is roughly half of those from the 1970's. This means the average person today occupies approximately 4x the square footage than we did in the 1970s. That equates to added cost in construction, heating, maintenance, and environmental impact.

At one time, to borrow money, one needed to prove to the lender with reasonable confidence that he/she would be able to repay the debt. Today, credit cards make borrowing as simple as just swiping the card through a reader. As a result, this feeds our desire for the best even though we really can't afford it. The average credit card debt is nearly $7,000.00 per person and climbing.

We no longer know how to live within our means and now government is making it even easier by offering bail-out programs for those with excessive housing and credit card debt. Government even insures businesses in a similar way all in the name of preserving our economy and who cares if anyone learns anything in the process.

I see it in the work ethics of those entering the workforce today and hear it in their talk. They don't expect to earn that which they contracted for when they accepted their job. I hear more and more about people starting a job and then quitting within very short periods of time because they just don't care. There's zero integrity out there. We expect to get everything handed to us on a plate without having to put out ourselves.

We live more and more on borrowed money and not because we must but because we don't know how to accept a little discomfort as we work our way up that proverbial corporate ladder. In a sense, we have become spoiled little brats.

Proverbs 22:26-27 NKJV
Do not be one of those who shakes hands in a pledge,
One of those who is surety for debts;
If you have nothing with which to pay,
Why should he take away your bed from under you?

Proverbs 28:20 NKJV
A faithful man will abound with blessings,
But he who hastens to be rich will not go unpunished.

 

[reba]

Amen WIP

 

[jasonc]

Actually, I don't agree with this. Here's my thought. We make the bed we sleep in. We have become an entitlement society. We set ourselves up for failure and then blame the economy, government, the wealthy, and yes even the poor for our own demise. We don't live within our means but jump on the bandwagon of debt unwilling to accept where we're at. We believe we deserve the best and all cost and are unwilling to accept anything less or work up to a better thing.

I'll give some examples.
Next time you're driving around, take notice of the number of rusted out old jalopies on the road. Now think back to when you were in your early 20's and the first few vehicles you owned. The first three cars I owned were rust buckets that basically ran well enough to get me from point A to point B in relative safety. My forth one needed work so a friend and I learned how to do some DYI bodywork. It wasn't showroom but it turned out pretty nice.

What size is your home? Now, think back to when you were growing up. What size was that home? The average size home in the United States today is roughly double the square footage of the average home in the 1970's. In addition, the average size family is roughly half of those from the 1970's. This means the average person today occupies approximately 4x the square footage than we did in the 1970s. That equates to added cost in construction, heating, maintenance, and environmental impact.

At one time, to borrow money, one needed to prove to the lender with reasonable confidence that he/she would be able to repay the debt. Today, credit cards make borrowing as simple as just swiping the card through a reader. As a result, this feeds our desire for the best even though we really can't afford it. The average credit card debt is nearly $7,000.00 per person and climbing.

We no longer know how to live within our means and now government is making it even easier by offering bail-out programs for those with excessive housing and credit card debt. Government even insures businesses in a similar way all in the name of preserving our economy and who cares if anyone learns anything in the process.

I see it in the work ethics of those entering the workforce today and hear it in their talk. They don't expect to earn that which they contracted for when they accepted their job. I hear more and more about people starting a job and then quitting within very short periods of time because they just don't care. There's zero integrity out there. We expect to get everything handed to us on a plate without having to put out ourselves.

We live more and more on borrowed money and not because we must but because we don't know how to accept a little discomfort as we work our way up that proverbial corporate ladder. In a sense, we have become spoiled little brats.

Proverbs 22:26-27 NKJV
Do not be one of those who shakes hands in a pledge,
One of those who is surety for debts;
If you have nothing with which to pay,
Why should he take away your bed from under you?

Proverbs 28:20 NKJV
A faithful man will abound with blessings,
But he who hastens to be rich will not go unpunished.

Kindly explain making 11 per hour and single parebt how you could afford rent here on 1200 a month ?

I drive a rust bucket ,i do all the work on my car ,I can reNY my house out for more then I pay on it and nearly have 500 a month pocketed. This wasn't the case here.my house isn't big ,1100 sg ft with six people isn't big I have autumn sleeping in my living room and jewel and rosie together.in grew up in a trailer ,no water. No sewage and no power at times.

I get the easy credit ,I have fell for that but looking how cheap it is to buy applanes over fixing them it is easier to throw them out.the old small homes you mentire would have you paying more on POWER then your p and I .50s homes had no ac nor insulation here.I get the work ethic but I read homes that are double member ages here .I post photos of those

 

[WIP]

Kindly explain making 11 per hour and single parebt how you could afford rent here on 1200 a month ?

I drive a rust bucket ,i do all the work on my car ,I can reNY my house out for more then I pay on it and nearly have 500 a month pocketed. This wasn't the case here.my house isn't big ,1100 sg ft with six people isn't big I have autumn sleeping in my living room and jewel and rosie together.in grew up in a trailer ,no water. No sewage and no power at times.

I get the easy credit ,I have fell for that but looking how cheap it is to buy applanes over fixing them it is easier to throw them out.the old small homes you mentire would have you paying more on POWER then your p and I .50s homes had no ac nor insulation here.I get the work ethic but I read homes that are double member ages here .I post photos of those

We can all find those out of the ordinary situations. I'm talking about the US population in general. Overall, approximately 90% of us are above the poverty level in the US.

Imagine how much lower heating costs would be if we just applied the newer technology for insulation to the same smaller homes we had in the 1970s. It didn't require us to double the size of our average homes to gain the insulating value and it certainly wouldn't cost near as much to upgrade.

 

[jasonc]

We can all find those out of the ordinary situations. I'm talking about the US population in general. Overall, approximately 90% of us are above the poverty level in the US.

Poverty level defined by the gov't is only 12 grand a year for a single person .

My church has a member who runs a large charity he told me that statistic.if you want a used car please post a good one that isnt junk.

My state has ,no industry nor does the south .the potus isn't changing the rental shortage,nor median price of home ownership. My.mom paid 30 grand for her house ,she now pays more in insurance then the mortgage.a bank will not make it easy to get a home now here.a coworker bought a house bigger ,then mine and 20 years older plus lot as that waa the best value .he wanted a new home,but oddly the bank refused.

You might think we must have those small homes and these exist ,they dont
Shotgun homes arent new,nor are they built in mass yet again .

Remember obama killed the used car market.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/19/why-appliances-need-repai_n_1778690.html


Cars are also going this route. Buy em aND toss em.

 

[Michael74]

Home square footage is primarily a function of zoning regulations. Many districts attempted to compensate for bankers confiscating purchasing power from their revenue by gentrifying their venues. There are only so many gentry, so this strategy has had the effect of preventing myriad ordinary means youngsters from buying a nest of their own.

Appliance durability is a form of hidden inflation. Same price, reduced quality.

 

[WIP]

Obama's plan was part of the bail-out of the automakers, which is one example of what I'm talking about.

It's not the responsibility of the POTUS to mess with the rental market or median home price. That's another example of what I'm talking about. We expect the government to take care of us......that's another example of entitlement.

How about buying an old home and fixing it up? My current home was a 130-year old farm building site with 87 acres and a barn that was collapsing. We bought it for $42,000.00 on a contract for deed at 8% APR. I had almost zero experience but I stripped the entire inside down to the wall studs, learned how to upgrade the wiring to code including the service entrance and installing dual-fuel baseboard electric heat throughout so I now have two sources for heating and can pick the lower cost option. The house had no insulation in the walls so I added that. I learned how to install, tape, and mud drywall. I learned how to sweat copper pipe for the plumbing. The house only had a partial basement so we decided to dig under it and expand the basement so the house is now sitting on a solid foundation so I learned how to form and pour footings, basement floor, and cement block walls. It took over 12 years to complete but I did it all without borrowing any money by saving what I could until I could do another room and we were able to live in it while it was being done.

When I bought this farm, I also decided to farm the land myself because I saw that as an opportunity to earn some of the money that could be applied toward the house. Yes, my equipment is old and I don't have a nice air-conditioned tractor and other large fancy equipment but I did it without borrowing a dime. I started with an old 1948 Farmall M tractor for $1,400.00. I picked up a 3-14" mold board plow at a local auction for $125.00. I found a 12' cultivator on steel wheels at the neighbors that he sold to me for scrap iron price ($50.00) and fixed it up. I found an old 1937 John Deere Van Brundt grain drill on steel wheels for $175.00.

I spent a countless hours working my farm with that old slow equipment and remodeling my home along with my regular full-time job as a service technician that required me to travel but in the end it all worked out and I managed to succeed at a life-long goal of not having a mortgage payment by age 50. Yes, when all my friends were buying their toys and fancy homes, nice vehicles, designer clothing, top-of-the-line gear, and so forth I was just happy with what I had and sometimes I even took a little gruff because of it.

Now today, the our farm is worth almost 5 times what we've got into it. There are only three things I have ever borrowed money for in my life. College tuition for one year because I didn't go back, buying a home, and buying automobiles. Anything else I ever got for myself I saved until I could afford it or I didn't get it. When I paid off a car, I continued making the payment to my savings account since I was surviving just fine as it was so I could put more down on my next vehicle. Using that tactic, when I traded in 2016, I bought a new F150 and paid cash, saving thousands in interest dollars.

There are ways to do it if we are willing to accept a little lower quality or wait for a while longer. But we aren't willing to do that. We've got to have the best and we've got to have it now. We deserve it.

 

[Michael74]

Buying an older home and fixing it up is a good idea.

Debt free is good.

The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower is servant to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 NKJV

Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. 1 Corinthians 7:21 NKJV

 

[jasonc]

Obama's plan was part of the bail-out of the automakers, which is one example of what I'm talking about.

It's not the responsibility of the POTUS to mess with the rental market or median home price. That's another example of what I'm talking about. We expect the government to take care of us......that's another example of entitlement.

How about buying an old home and fixing it up? My current home was a 130-year old farm building site with 87 acres and a barn that was collapsing. We bought it for $42,000.00 on a contract for deed at 8% APR. I had almost zero experience but I stripped the entire inside down to the wall studs, learned how to upgrade the wiring to code including the service entrance and installing dual-fuel baseboard electric heat throughout so I now have two sources for heating and can pick the lower cost option. The house had no insulation in the walls so I added that. I learned how to install, tape, and mud drywall. I learned how to sweat copper pipe for the plumbing. The house only had a partial basement so we decided to dig under it and expand the basement so the house is now sitting on a solid foundation so I learned how to form and pour footings, basement floor, and cement block walls. It took over 12 years to complete but I did it all without borrowing any money by saving what I could until I could do another room and we were able to live in it while it was being done.

When I bought this farm, I also decided to farm the land myself because I saw that as an opportunity to earn some of the money that could be applied toward the house. Yes, my equipment is old and I don't have a nice air-conditioned tractor and other large fancy equipment but I did it without borrowing a dime. I started with an old 1948 Farmall M tractor for $1,400.00. I picked up a 3-14" mold board plow at a local auction for $125.00. I found a 12' cultivator on steel wheels at the neighbors that he sold to me for scrap iron price ($50.00) and fixed it up. I found an old 1937 John Deere Van Brundt grain drill on steel wheels for $175.00.

I spent a countless hours working my farm with that old slow equipment and remodeling my home along with my regular full-time job as a service technician that required me to travel but in the end it all worked out and I managed to succeed at a life-long goal of not having a mortgage payment by age 50. Yes, when all my friends were buying their toys and fancy homes, nice vehicles, designer clothing, top-of-the-line gear, and so forth I was just happy with what I had and sometimes I even took a little gruff because of it.

Now today, the our farm is worth almost 5 times what we've got into it. There are only three things I have ever borrowed money for in my life. College tuition for one year because I didn't go back, buying a home, and buying automobiles. Anything else I ever got for myself I saved until I could afford it or I didn't get it. When I paid off a car, I continued making the payment to my savings account since I was surviving just fine as it was so I could put more down on my next vehicle. Using that tactic, when I traded in 2016, I bought a new F150 and paid cash, saving thousands in interest dollars.

There are ways to do it if we are willing to accept a little lower quality or wait for a while longer. But we aren't willing to do that. We've got to have the best and we've got to have it now. We deserve it.

I said used car market.was killed by Obama .with the the attempt to force uses cars less efficient out.I never said the government should do anything,only thar it's a problem that exists.

You idea of farm restoration. Is this here,city,County rules you cant,big development comes in buys it you sell and leave richer if you ever had the money to own it.old again lands are already bought out.I spend my time looking up old Grove, these were bought ,owned and sold before you were born and now sold piece meal. A bank wouldn't loan land LIke thar cheap here easily as they know piecing it out would male them more. Old ag acreage is often owned by historical pioneers here and broken up aND sold to either those in the money to keep it or to development.

The market here wouldn't allow me to buy a farm.shoot this is a 200k apt edifice

These get bought fixed ,and rented out for more then a new apartment. This is why many of these are left and razed.

I love them but I live in a former ag county,less and less of those are being used.I grew up when orange stands lay on the roads to where tourist would be found.these are gone ,and citrus thar made my county is for all purposes dead. You are thonking in your day ,not all could .

 

[jasonc]

One must have sufficient income and risk worthiness to be loaned a derelict fixer upper. Most old homes would be saved if the owner could. Many do try here many simply. Raze the 100 year old house build a new because they make more doing so.the above edifice is pre ww2.I use it as a ww2 era vero reference

 

[Michael74]

Voting in sensible zoning regulations would help make newer homes affordable. 1000 sq ft Levitt style homes worked just fine for our ancestors.

Also vote to tame the bankers' credit creation, so cities can retain purchasing power in their revenue. Then they won't get so desperate, and try to gentrify virtually all new abodes.

Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the Lord. Proverbs 20:10 KJV

 

[jasonc]

Voting in sensible zoning regulations would help make newer homes affordable. 1000 sq ft Levitt style homes worked just fine for our ancestors.

I would prefer the far older cobb house style. let me dig up a modern version in my photos. I live in a 1130 under air house. btw. cobb house goes back to the time of Moses and before. the modern Spanish style homes that are a revival in the late 1800s to the roaring 20s and a few later on is a retake on that. flat roof wouldn't be wise but that is what the cobb house and later on.this one was built in the early 20s and was considered huge for the time and while not the smallest of these as it was a more wealthy home. this is woodframe on stucco and like many built and sold by ckee/sexton paid for. there was NO loans by banks to buy homes in the roaring 20s. the bottom one is a perfect example of what im talking about . this was beyond salvation, also this was small and considered big for the time and in this area plenty of visitors came and rented and went to the beach. now this would be too small. I remember the person last to live there. I believe it was one person. I think this was 700 sq ft. these often had no carport or garage, the bigger one above did

 

[Razeontherock]

Actually, I don't agree with this.

You make a lot of salient points in this post, but they're not responsive to what I said; which also means there's no disagreement between us here.

We set ourselves up for failure and then blame the economy, government, the wealthy, and yes even the poor for our own demise. We don't live within our means but jump on the bandwagon of debt unwilling to accept where we're at. We believe we deserve the best and all cost and are unwilling to accept anything less or work up to a better thing.

Addressing what you said, your use of the word "we" doesn't apply to me at all. Before I go through your examples let me point out that inventory of real estate for sale there's basically nothing available in the category most people can afford, which is below $250,000. That's because it sells immediately, with several offers coming in within a day of when it's listed. That buying pressure doesn't exist above that price point

I'll give some examples.
Next time you're driving around, take notice of the number of rusted out old jalopies on the road. Now think back to when you were in your early 20's and the first few vehicles you owned. The first three cars I owned were rust buckets that basically ran well enough to get me from point A to point B in relative safety.

My work vehicle has over 200,000 miles on it, and my yearly body work (needed because you don't want the appearance of a rust bucket parked in your driveway while I earn my living) on it has not yet begun. My vehicle for personal use has to be able to double for work use and has over 200,000 miles on it. Body work needed will not be done.

What size is your home? Now, think back to when you were growing up. What size was that home?

950 sq ft, with over 30% of that dedicated to business use. Smaller than what I grew up in, and the lot size is almost identical.

At one time, to borrow money, one needed to prove to the lender with reasonable confidence that he/she would be able to repay the debt. Today, credit cards make borrowing as simple as just swiping the card through a reader. As a result, this feeds our desire for the best even though we really can't afford it. The average credit card debt is nearly $7,000.00 per person and climbing.

The last time I had a credit card was circa 1995, when my (then) wife forced me into bankruptcy. The lawyer handling it asked me who was handling the divorce. I dismissed the idea. My divorce was finalized in 1998.

We no longer know how to live within our means

Oh yes I do; always have.

I see it in the work ethics of those entering the workforce today and hear it in their talk. They don't expect to earn that which they contracted for when they accepted their job. I hear more and more about people starting a job and then quitting within very short periods of time because they just don't care. There's zero integrity out there. We expect to get everything handed to us on a plate without having to put out ourselves.

"We?" None of that has ever pertained to me, nor have I ever walked up any corporate ladder. I've been self-employed half my life, and yes, I DID build that!

We live more and more on borrowed money and not because we must but because we don't know how to accept a little discomfort as we work our way up that proverbial corporate ladder. In a sense, we have become spoiled little brats.

What I said was that the economic squeeze caused by stagnant wages as compared to inflation, and shrinking wages as compared to the cost of living, makes it hard to build the Church. And that this isn't reflected in unemployment figures. I stand by that claim, which is entirely distinct from the points you've made. Further, I work in people's homes, whereas your customer contact is corporate and the people are probably employed in reasonably stable and good jobs. I think your perception is missing a huge chunk of our population.

We have become an entitlement society.

I observe this also. Just as one example, my youngest Son will turn 23 in 3 months. He feels entitled to curse me out, threaten me with violence, AND sue me for the cost of his College education. His Mother did NOT raise him with those values, he learned that in College.

Attitudes like that can never build the Church ...

 

[Michael74]

I would prefer the far older cobb house style.

Cobb style will work too. Anything that is affordable. The Levitt homes sold for the CPI equivalent of maybe $75,000. Youngsters could afford Cobb or Levitt at that price.

 

[jasonc]

Cobb style will work too. Anything that is affordable. The Levitt homes sold for the CPI equivalent of maybe $75,000. Youngsters could afford Cobb or Levitt at that price.

You can if you look ,a 75k home of you ,if the equity is in it should it be salvageable. These do exist but are rare.

Market dropped me home to that not even 5 years ago.

 

[WIP]

You make a lot of salient points in this post, but they're not responsive to what I said; which also means there's no disagreement between us here.



Addressing what you said, your use of the word "we" doesn't apply to me at all. Before I go through your examples let me point out that inventory of real estate for sale there's basically nothing available in the category most people can afford, which is below $250,000. That's because it sells immediately, with several offers coming in within a day of when it's listed. That buying pressure doesn't exist above that price point


My work vehicle has over 200,000 miles on it, and my yearly body work (needed because you don't want the appearance of a rust bucket parked in your driveway while I earn my living) on it has not yet begun. My vehicle for personal use has to be able to double for work use and has over 200,000 miles on it. Body work needed will not be done.



950 sq ft, with over 30% of that dedicated to business use. Smaller than what I grew up in, and the lot size is almost identical.



The last time I had a credit card was circa 1995, when my (then) wife forced me into bankruptcy. The lawyer handling it asked me who was handling the divorce. I dismissed the idea. My divorce was finalized in 1998.



Oh yes I do; always have.



"We?" None of that has ever pertained to me, nor have I ever walked up any corporate ladder. I've been self-employed half my life, and yes, I DID build that!



What I said was that the economic squeeze caused by stagnant wages as compared to inflation, and shrinking wages as compared to the cost of living, makes it hard to build the Church. And that this isn't reflected in unemployment figures. I stand by that claim, which is entirely distinct from the points you've made. Further, I work in people's homes, whereas your customer contact is corporate and the people are probably employed in reasonably stable and good jobs. I think your perception is missing a huge chunk of our population.



I observe this also. Just as one example, my youngest Son will turn 23 in 3 months. He feels entitled to curse me out, threaten me with violence, AND sue me for the cost of his College education. His Mother did NOT raise him with those values, he learned that in College.

Attitudes like that can never build the Church ...

Like I was saying to Jason, I'm speaking in general terms about the population of the United States. I'm not denying there are some that do not fit into this generalization.

Every year I take a trip to Ontario and on my way I drive past countless homes that are left abandoned. Some appear to be relatively new in condition and not well used but as with any building that is left unattended, they are beginning to deteriorate. These are all potential candidates for the DYIer type person. And what about jobs? One of my wife's friends is staying with us as she struggles with depression. Last week when she went with my wife into town, she commented about how many businesses were looking for help. There isn't hardly a business in town that is not looking for help. Yes, some of these are the fast-food places but you know what? Beggars can't be choosers in my opinion.

When I was laid off in 1982 I was bringing in a $25,000.00 per year salary. According to the American Institute for Economic Research cost of living calculator that was equivalent to about $65,000.00 in today's dollars. The economy at that time on Minnesota's iron range was in a pretty severe depression unlike the rest of the country with unemployment rates in the Hibbing area cities reaching as high as 60%. When I finally found a job working for a local building supply loading vehicles it paid minimum wage, which was $4.25 per hour, which was about 1/3 the salary I had been making but I was more than happy to accept the offer rather than to continue living on assistance from the good citizens of Minnesota. I have never felt more uncomfortable than I was when we were living on public assistance. I'll never forget the year when I finally made enough income to actually pay taxes again and commenting to my wife with a smile, "We get to pay taxes this year!" I meant every word.

People have become so accustomed to having social programs we no longer feel any embarrassment or discomfort or awkwardness or distress about it and have little if any desire to move on. Today, it is an entitlement and who cares if it comes from the backs of others.

Bankruptcy is going in the same direction. We think because it affects creditors its okay. The truth is, we failed to hold up our end of the bargain and now we use the law to dump it in the laps of the creditors. Reminds of the parable of the generous business owner, Matthew 20:1-16.

 

[WIP]

I said used car market.was killed by Obama .with the the attempt to force uses cars less efficient out.

It was also designed to raise the value of both used and new cars by reducing the competition. The automobile makers don't make money selling used vehicles. They make money and generate jobs building new vehicles.

Edit: It is my opinion that the "old poor emissions" claim was actually nothing more than an advertising ruse to sell his plan. The reason I say this is because the newer used vehicles not on the chopping block were not much better and by far worse than the new equipment out there at that time. It was just enough to justify what he was really doing and that was subsidizing the auto industry through the back door.

 

[jasonc]

In either case it kills the idea of a used car that one can cheaply buy and keep. I will say the big three are still dying .fiat is looking to sell chysler.let that die if no other buys it.jeep waa part of amc,Chrysler bought it and the rest save,eagle cars,was defunct.eagle cars were defunct in the late 90s.

 

[jasonc]

Bankruptcy, isn't that easy,my wife did that because she had no choice .I wasn't married to her .it ruined her credit for sometime. Only because of me could she get credit,even on my mortgage.I'm primary.

I will say there's no loyalty, business owners sell and fold sometimes and dont tell there enployees until the day of.most homes after the recession here have been bought by real estate agents aND are rentals if these are foreclosures and some sold if on the beach, river.a few razed,I passed one today that I knew the owner of who died .the home wasn't even 5 years old.odd the new owner would but it must be some big development coming in.

 

[ezra]

i can appreciate WIP o.p i enjoyed reading it how he became a self made man.. it semi reminded me of my dad who had a 8th grade education pulled him self up. saw-milled for a while took over managing a small country store in a town of about 300 . back in late 1800 early 1900 it was a big mill town .i will post a video about it in the lounge some time. Him and my mom bought the store. closed that one .built a bigger building he made fair money for the years he was in in it. till 1981 his health broke i should have followed his foot steps took the business over . but i had the pleasures of sin for a season and enjoyed being conformed to this world.. he paid cash money for every thing . he milled the lumber for the house i was raised in had it built
this is how it really needs to be.. this day and age person needs some credit just not a over abundance. many look down on bankruptcy i had to file it due to my own error . sometimes you have to do what ya have to do ..even though my thread was hijacked lol..i forgives ya call it chasing rabbits