church carry....

[WIP]

Are you saying that the highway shootings were a good thing?

Sorry, Obadiah, I know the answer but I had to ask anyway.

 

[Obadiah]

Are you saying that the highway shootings were a good thing?

Sorry, Obadiah, I know the answer but I had to ask anyway.

LOL! I was almost going to come out and say just that, but I was afraid that some people would take it too seriously. But hey, if you think about it, saving lives is a good thing, no? More lives were saved than lost... Isn't that a good thing?

But, yeah, of course that's not the way we should be saving lives on the road. But it sure went to show how having the idea in your head that the person you are being rude to may be armed, may be fed up after a bad day, and may be ready to shoot you does make you more polite! :yes

 

[jasonc]

Some people have irrational fears of people who carry guns for lawful reasons. That's why no one sees mine when I have it and I feel no need to tell them either. In my opinion, the disrespect here is from the pastor toward his flock by having a Bible study in a dangerous part of town and tying the hands of those who otherwise might be able to protect themselves and protect the others.

One thing a lot of people fail to understand is that almost every time a gun protects someone, it doesn't even involve firing a shot, and most times doesn't even involve displaying the gun. In my entire career as a street cop I literally used my gun almost every day while out on patrol to accomplish what I needed done, but I never once fired a shot at anyone.

present the force or the show the force.

 

[Obadiah]

present the force or the show the force.

Not only that, but a lot of times just knowing you have the ability if needed will give you an air of confidence that a criminal will sense, and he will think better of challenging you without ever even seeing the gun. Now the situation is diffused without even needing to show or even talk about having a gun. Criminals that prey on people tend to be good at reading attitude and non-verbal communications, otherwise they wouldn't be very successful.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It's amazing how these threads attract pro-gun enthusiasts.
People not of the gun lobby tend to stay away.
But 2 things have caught my attention.

1. The mention of being a soldier for Christ and carrying a gun.
I, too, am a soldier for Christ, but my weapons are prayer and the Word of God.
And I do not keep them concealed.
2. No one uses any Scripture to support their carrying a weapon.

How about sharing with me so I can understand.

 

[reba]

Pete didn't have a gun he had a sword...... Jesus didn't tell him to get rid of it.. Jesus told him to pack it...

Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Pete didn't have a gun he had a sword...... Jesus didn't tell him to get rid of it.. Jesus told him to pack it...

Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Exactly.
He had him take up a sword to show him there was no need for a sword.
Jesus was in control, not Peter.
When we choose to carry a firearm, are we not putting ourselves in control?

When does a sheep need to protect itself?
When it is not walking with the shepherd.
When it is walking with the shepherd, the shepherd protects the sheep.
If we are the sheep and Jesus is our shepherd, then who protects us?
Is it not Jesus?
Why do we need a gun to protect us?
Do we not trust our shepherd?

 

[Obadiah]

It's amazing how these threads attract pro-gun enthusiasts.
People not of the gun lobby tend to stay away.
But 2 things have caught my attention.

1. The mention of being a soldier for Christ and carrying a gun.
I, too, am a soldier for Christ, but my weapons are prayer and the Word of God.
And I do not keep them concealed.
2. No one uses any Scripture to support their carrying a weapon.

How about sharing with me so I can understand.

I'm not part of a gun lobby anymore than I am part of a car lobby just because I drive a car, but I agree with you, being a "soldier for the Lord" (even though that was only mentioned one time, very casually, by one person who wasn't stating doctrine) isn't meaning to carry a gun and shoot people, unless you really are a soldier in the military and believe that truly is your calling by God, of course. As for a Soldier for the Lord, like you I think more of the armor of God passage.

As for carrying a gun, of course it's not mentioned in scripture because guns weren't invented then. But as Reba pointed out, there are weapons mentioned and they are not condemned when used properly and for the right reasons, and they also aren't required and they come with warnings of the responsibility involved. Not every issue we face, and every decision to do or not do something we face is spelled out in scripture. We have to look at the principles of scripture and at how they apply to our times. There is no command to carry a weapon, and there is also no command not to carry one. It's our choice and I don't judge or condemn either side. The only thing I feel is wrong is when someone on one side or the other tells me that I am in the wrong just because they personally don't like my personal choice.

As for trusting your shepherd when you need protection, well, all I can say is if you really mean that you won't call the police, an armed security guard, or anyone else when you need help and you won't support the military intervening if another country sends their troops here to invade us and take over our country.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm not part of a gun lobby anymore than I am part of a car lobby just because I drive a car, but I agree with you, being a "soldier for the Lord" (even though that was only mentioned one time, very casually, by one person who wasn't stating doctrine) isn't meaning to carry a gun and shoot people, unless you really are a soldier in the military and believe that truly is your calling by God, of course. As for a Soldier for the Lord, like you I think more of the armor of God passage.

As for carrying a gun, of course it's not mentioned in scripture because guns weren't invented then. But as Reba pointed out, there are weapons mentioned and they are not condemned when used properly and for the right reasons, and they also aren't required and they come with warnings of the responsibility involved. Not every issue we face, and every decision to do or not do something we face is spelled out in scripture. We have to look at the principles of scripture and at how they apply to our times. There is no command to carry a weapon, and there is also no command not to carry one. It's our choice and I don't judge or condemn either side. The only thing I feel is wrong is when someone on one side or the other tells me that I am in the wrong just because they personally don't like my personal choice.

As for trusting your shepherd when you need protection, well, all I can say is if you really mean that you won't call the police, an armed security guard, or anyone else when you need help and you won't support the military intervening if another country sends their troops here to invade us and take over our country.

You are quite right in your last statement.
When I need help, Jesus is always there for me.
That may be hard for some to understand but it is true.
As far as the military and wars go, I pay my taxes and obey the laws as best I can.
I pray for our country and leaders.
If another country takes us over, I will still pray for our country and our new leaders.
I will still do my best to obey the laws and pay my taxes.

My country is in heaven.
I am an ambassador for Christ in this country.
Ambassadors don't get involved in politics or the military of the country they are only visiting.
For I am only visiting, my home is with God.

Thank you for the opportunity to express my beliefs.

 

[Obadiah]

You are quite right in your last statement.
When I need help, Jesus is always there for me.
That may be hard for some to understand but it is true.
As far as the military and wars go, I pay my taxes and obey the laws as best I can.
I pray for our country and leaders.
If another country takes us over, I will still pray for our country and our new leaders.
I will still do my best to obey the laws and pay my taxes.

My country is in heaven.
I am an ambassador for Christ in this country.
Ambassadors don't get involved in politics or the military of the country they are only visiting.
For I am only visiting, my home is with God.

Thank you for the opportunity to express my beliefs.

That will be wonderful, and I pray that you will have the strength to hold onto those ideals should any of this ever happen to you. Few will be able to do that!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That will be wonderful, and I pray that you will have the strength to hold onto those ideals should any of this ever happen to you. Few will be able to do that!

It is always a trial of our faith and beliefs when we are put to the test.
I can only hope that when the day comes, I will call on the Lord, my Lord.

 

[WIP]

How does Luke 22, particularly verse 36 fit into this?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How does Luke 22, particularly verse 36 fit into this?

This is very much subject to interpretation.
Why verse 37 after 36?
What transgressors are being spoken of here?
The ones with the swords?
Why are 2 swords enough in verse 38?
Jesus wasn't calling us to bear arms.
He was fulfilling Scripture as he said in verse 37.
He said "no more" to the use of weapons and healed his enemy.
Why does Jesus say in verse 40, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation"?
How does that tie in with everything else?
Lots to think about here.

 

[Deborah13]

No that's what he was doing.
I think he had dropped the magazine but it had something to do with the slide maybe?
I'll ask dh tonight, maybe he remembers, it was his side of the family not mine. 2 I am not familiar with that gun or any semi-auto handgun.

Well, I even had the wrong gun. Dh said it was a 41cal.. He said that the guy had taken out the clip, when he pulled the slide back to empty the chamber the slide slipped from under his hand. He said he couldn't remember if the guy had his finger on the trigger or if the slide, slid so fast (faster than the hammer) and it discharged. If that makes any sense. Dh isn't familiar with automatics either.

 

[Deborah13]

This is very much subject to interpretation.
Why verse 37 after 36?
What transgressors are being spoken of here?
The ones with the swords?
Why are 2 swords enough in verse 38?
Jesus wasn't calling us to bear arms.
He was fulfilling Scripture as he said in verse 37.
He said "no more" to the use of weapons and healed his enemy.
Why does Jesus say in verse 40, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation"?
How does that tie in with everything else?
Lots to think about here.

I think Jesus was talking about himself when he said "he was reckon among the transgressors"

 

[Edward]

This is very much subject to interpretation.
Why verse 37 after 36?
What transgressors are being spoken of here?
The ones with the swords?
Why are 2 swords enough in verse 38?
Jesus wasn't calling us to bear arms.
He was fulfilling Scripture as he said in verse 37.
He said "no more" to the use of weapons and healed his enemy.
Why does Jesus say in verse 40, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation"?
How does that tie in with everything else?
Lots to think about here.

That is sort of a confusing passage, but it seems to me that perhaps it is saying that we should have some sort of arm, but not to go hog wild with them and become more dependent upon the weapons than the Lord. Reckoned with the transgressors...that's a good one? Maybe it means that we are all in this together, and may have to fight some before the end?

The part about selling your cloak to buy a sword seems to indicate the importance of having something. The cloak back then, was their most important piece of clothing. It was their sleeping bag, protection from the elements, and coat. If having a sword is more important than that even, then it behooves us to have one around, just don't depend on it more than the Lord. There were 12 disciples, and two swords were enough for them. So don't go overboard with them.

Or so it seems to me.

 

[Deborah13]

That is sort of a confusing passage, but it seems to me that perhaps it is saying that we should have some sort of arm, but not to go hog wild with them and become more dependent upon the weapons than the Lord. Reckoned with the transgressors...that's a good one? Maybe it means that we are all in this together, and may have to fight some before the end?

esword

Isa 53:12 Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

I think He told them to bring weapons for protection because His mission wasn't done yet and the Jews saw Him as a transgressor against the Jewish faith. Jesus quoting this prophecy about Himself.

 

[KevinK]

Well, I even had the wrong gun. Dh said it was a 41cal.. He said that the guy had taken out the clip, when he pulled the slide back to empty the chamber the slide slipped from under his hand. He said he couldn't remember if the guy had his finger on the trigger or if the slide, slid so fast (faster than the hammer) and it discharged. If that makes any sense. Dh isn't familiar with automatics either.

Sounds like your basic "slamfire". Slamming the bolt down on an already chambered round. Sometimes you have to have your finger on the trigger, other times a stuck and protruding firing pin will do it. This is why you ALWAYS have the muzzle pointed in a safe direction when clearing a weapon.

People always forget muzzle control, for some reason. There's a story floating around the internet about a guy who dropped the mag and proceeded to cycle the weapon to clear the chamber, even though he KNEW it wasn't loaded. Well, it was, and since the recoil spring was unusually strong he let the bolt handle slip before he could lock it full back. The bolt with a slightly protruding FP slammed forward into the loaded chamber, igniting the round and because he failed to point the rifle in a safe direction since it was so basic a check procedure, shooting his napping dog through the heart. The dog never felt a thing. The owner will never forget that night.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

esword

Isa 53:12 Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

I think He told them to bring weapons for protection because His mission wasn't done yet and the Jews saw Him as a transgressor against the Jewish faith. Jesus quoting this prophecy about Himself.

Jesus was not a transgressor.
He never sinned.
How could he become a transgressor?
He had to commit a sin.
Peter cut off an ear.
There's your sin.
They didn't care it wasn't Jesus, they blamed him for it.
Jesus had it done to fulfill prophecy.
Then he says, "no more", heals the ear and goes to his death as a transgressor.

If the point was for the disciples to carry swords and protect themselves, we surely would have an indication of that elsewhere in Scripture.

 

[WIP]

This is why you ALWAYS have the muzzle pointed in a safe direction when clearing a weapon.

I'll offer a correction. Always have the muzzle pointed in a safe direction period, end of sentence.