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Growth Church Ornaments: Inspiration

Abishai100

Abishai100

Member
Many churches feature finely-polished candlesticks and articles of impression and well-crafted stained glass displays.

These ornaments serve as humbling signs of the natural fascination with the enigmas and majesty of the experience with the divine.

They are considered to be precious and are therefore placed in the same spiritual vicinity as holy-water urns, etc.

Church ornaments help people create a mental space for spiritualism bearing and therefore can be discussed for issues regarding mysticism dialogue.




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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Grail


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The sad thing about this is that it does the opposite of what Jesus told the woman at the well..... it creates the impression that it is necessary to go to a designated "Holy" place to find God. As if He actually lives in that particular location.
 
I think they are a good thing. I love Orthodox Icons and incense. I love the smell of candles and such. I agree with the above post but I also love being in a Church, not necessarily AT Church, but IN a Church. They give me a sense of wonder and even more of a desire to pray. I feel like I am in a sanctuary. I definitely think the beauty of the place/ornaments/etc. helps, because it moves people emotionally. Being in a Church puts me in a mentally good place.
 
Anatolia said:
I think they are a good thing. I love Orthodox Icons and incense. I love the smell of candles and such. I agree with the above post but I also love being in a Church, not necessarily AT Church, but IN a Church. They give me a sense of wonder and even more of a desire to pray. I feel like I am in a sanctuary. I definitely think the beauty of the place/ornaments/etc. helps, because it moves people emotionally. Being in a Church puts me in a mentally good place.
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Have you noticed from reading the Bible that Jesus employed none of that..... however, the distorted and misdirected religion He always fought against, did.. in spades?
 
I'm not saying it's necessary, just that I personally enjoy it. Why should our Churches be bare? That is not inspiring. It is cold and dead. Why can't we make them look nice? The Temple was full of gold and lavish designs and no-one seems to have a problem with that; least of all Yeshua. I'm not quite sure what your point is.
 
Anatolia said:
I'm not saying it's necessary, just that I personally enjoy it. Why should our Churches be bare? That is not inspiring. It is cold and dead. Why can't we make them look nice? The Temple was full of gold and lavish designs and no-one seems to have a problem with that; least of all Yeshua. I'm not quite sure what your point is.
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The point is that it is WE who have made the inclusion of all these trappings, worship . Did Jesus, ever once, stipulate the necessity of any of that? I don't believe so. If church is not really church to us WITHOUT these things, then we really do need to be asking ourselves, "Why not?"
 
I haven't said that the Church isn't the Church without these things. I have never said these things are necessary. I prefer Church with those things, that's just my preference. I can't personally stand the NIV Bible, but I'm not saying no-one else should use it. I really don't find stained glass and nice smells a problem. The Jewish Temple used incense, is that an issue for you? I still don't understand your point. Sorry :sad
 
Abishai100 said:
Many churches feature finely-polished candlesticks and articles of impression and well-crafted stained glass displays.

These ornaments serve as humbling signs of the natural fascination with the enigmas and majesty of the experience with the divine.

They are considered to be precious and are therefore placed in the same spiritual vicinity as holy-water urns, etc.

Church ornaments help people create a mental space for spiritualism bearing and therefore can be discussed for issues regarding mysticism dialogue.
Click to expand...

I was raised in a Lutheran church which had the stained glass windows, polished candle sticks, and a lot of the other things you are talking about. Yet when I was older (14) and accepted Christ I understood that these things were simply there to create an atmosphere to cause me to want to worship God and knew very well that they not only weren't holy in themselves but even that they weren't necessary. They were just nice to have because they tend to focus our minds on what we are there for; worship and fellowship. It was a matter of proper teaching from the leaders of the church about these kind of things, not about having or not having the things themselves. I understand that not every church may have proper teaching on these things, but any I've attended long enough to see what their teaching was did understand this and did teach it to their congregation.

It's true Jesus didn't use most of these things, but I think the reason was more practical than spiritual. He was traveling around on foot spreading the gospel, so he wasn't going to be carrying a temple with him! I've never accepted the idea that just because Jesus didn't do or use something it has to be wrong. Jesus never condemned these kind of things (he would only be against the worship of them), and in fact Jesus and the apostles openly supported at least a few symbolic things such as the water of baptism and the elements of communion, all of which have also been misunderstood and misused by some Christians and some churches. We are told in Philippians 4:8: "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." (ESV). The point here is to focus your mind on these things of God, and the ornaments and symbolism used in churches are there to help people do this. Sure, it's not mandatory, but there's nothing wrong with it when it's for the right reasons. If individual people or even entire churches use these things in a wrong way, well, that's on them. I don't think their attitudes should be used to say no one else can be allowed to appreciate and use these things correctly.
 
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Fancy Churches are beautiful to the eyes, but do we really need such an atmosphere of great adorning in order to worship the Lord! Church needs to be our school as in learning what God has already spoke and what He wants revealed to us taught by those who have truly been called of God and indwelled with His Holy Spirit as we are taught through the power of Christ who lives in us and not some material building.

What is the true tabernacle of God. One made by hands in all its adornment or the one whose corner stone is that of Christ. If every fancy Church would take the money it cost them to build these beautiful buildings with all its fine adornment and instead give that money to the poor and further His teachings then that would be inline with the will of God. Not every Church is of God and many have their false prophets teaching from their pulpits. If we are truly worshiping God in Spirit and truth we can do that anywhere as the temple of God is within us. IE: building or out in a field it makes no difference as long as the Spirit of the Lord is there as our chief corner stone.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
 
for_his_glory said:
Fancy Churches are beautiful to the eyes, but do we really need such an atmosphere of great adorning in order to worship the Lord! Church needs to be our school as in learning what God has already spoke and what He wants revealed to us taught by those who have truly been called of God and indwelled with His Holy Spirit as we are taught through the power of Christ who lives in us and not some material building.

What is the true tabernacle of God. One made by hands in all its adornment or the one whose corner stone is that of Christ. If every fancy Church would take the money it cost them to build these beautiful buildings with all its fine adornment and instead give that money to the poor and further His teachings then that would be inline with the will of God. Not every Church is of God and many have their false prophets teaching from their pulpits. If we are truly worshiping God in Spirit and truth we can do that anywhere as the temple of God is within us. IE: building or out in a field it makes no difference as long as the Spirit of the Lord is there as our chief corner stone.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
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You're right, none of these things are needed to worship God. But that doesn't mean they should be prohibited. You don't need a car to go to work or to the market, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't have one and use it for those kind of things! And you're right that God doesn't actually live in the church building, but no church I've ever been to or heard of actually teaches that! Just because some really ignorant people might think that doesn't mean it's the church's fault for teaching it.

As for being a place of learning about God, yes it's that too, but it's not only that. That's an aspect separate from corporate worship and one doesn't preclude the other. Having a nice cross on the wall and some stained glass windows (or whatever) doesn't mean you can't also have a separate classroom or that you can't conduct a class in the same room that you worship in.

As for giving the money to the poor instead, well, I think that depends on what God has lead a particular church to do. Most can do some of both. Remember, facilitating worship among His children is important to God as well, and He doesn't find fault with that. In John 12 there is a story of Mary worshiping Jesus by anointing His feet with some very expensive salve or ointment of some kind. Judas told her she was wrong, and that she should have sold the salve and given the money to the poor instead. But Jesus Himself rebuked Judas and said "the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me." (John 12:8 ESV) Since we know Jesus will always be with us, it's clear He was talking about the idea that she won't always be able to worship Him in this way, but will have to go on with other things in her life as well. I think the concept applies today as well. While it's certainly true that we can worship God anytime and anywhere, when we are in a worship service with our church body that is our special time set aside to worship our Lord and it's right to put some value on that just like Mary did. If having some nice things helps people focus on worshiping God then that adds value and (within reason) shouldn't be looked down on.

Yes, helping the poor is a good thing to do, but according to Jesus it's not to take priority over worshiping Him. I think rather than saying flat out that churches shouldn't have any of these kind of things, a better place to draw a line is that they shouldn't allow these things to become objects of pride or shouldn't venerate these things as if they were actually God. This can apply to a lot of things we have in churches today, and they should be used as tools of worship just as Mary's ointment was used.
 
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Obadiah said:
You're right, none of these things are needed to worship God. But that doesn't mean they should be prohibited. You don't need a car to go to work or to the market, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't have one and use it for those kind of things! And you're right that God doesn't actually live in the church building, but no church I've ever been to or heard of actually teaches that! Just because some really ignorant people might think that doesn't mean it's the church's fault for teaching it.

As for being a place of learning about God, yes it's that too, but it's not only that. That's an aspect separate from corporate worship and one doesn't preclude the other. Having a nice cross on the wall and some stained glass windows (or whatever) doesn't mean you can't also have a separate classroom or that you can't conduct a class in the same room that you worship in.

As for giving the money to the poor instead, well, I think that depends on what God has lead a particular church to do. Most can do some of both. Remember, facilitating worship among His children is important to God as well, and He doesn't find fault with that. In John 12 there is a story of Mary worshiping Jesus by anointing His feet with some very expensive salve or ointment of some kind. Judas told her she was wrong, and that she should have sold the salve and given the money to the poor instead. But Jesus Himself rebuked Judas and said "the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me." (John 12:8 ESV) Since we know Jesus will always be with us, it's clear He was talking about the idea that she won't always be able to worship Him in this way, but will have to go on with other things in her life as well. I think the concept applies today as well. While it's certainly true that we can worship God anytime and anywhere, when we are in a worship service with our church body that is our special time set aside to worship our Lord and it's right to put some value on that just like Mary did. If having some nice things helps people focus on worshiping God then that adds value and (within reason) shouldn't be looked down on.

Yes, helping the poor is a good thing to do, but according to Jesus it's not to take priority over worshiping Him. I think rather than saying flat out that churches shouldn't have any of these kind of things, a better place to draw a line is that they shouldn't allow these things to become objects of pride or shouldn't venerate these things as if they were actually God. This can apply to a lot of things we have in churches today, and they should be used as tools of worship just as Mary's ointment was used.
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I'm speaking more on the line that I know of many Churches that adorn their walls an windows, but when it comes to helps they close their doors. No, there is nothing wrong with those decorations, but when they become our idol that is where I have a problem.
 
Music is no different.
Some churches are like going to a rock concert, and the pews are full.
They say, "I really get filled with the Spirit of God".
Who am I to say they are not.
 
Yep, a lot of the Biblical descriptions of worship sound like a rock concert too. It's about what's in the heart more than what we see or hear. (To a point, of course! :biggrin2)
 
IMNSHO.... It boils down to... "Is this inspiration and worshipful attitude with you at the Laundromat and in the grocery store... in the hardware store... and riding the subway or bus...... OR, do you find that you somehow require the trappings of THAT building (or one like it) to experience God"?
 
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I also enjoy Orthodox iconography. I have it in my office, and although I don't think them necessary to speak with the Lord -- quite honestly my most intimate moments with Jesus are on the way driving to work in the morning -- I understand the appeal. These images can be inspired, just as a song can be inspired, just as a prayer cloth can be inspired, just as a word from a person of God can be inspired.

We don't need censers, icons, polishes candle sticks, stained glass, whatever the things may be... but there's nothing wrong with them.

St.-Catherine-Christ-Pantocrator.jpg


When I look at the Christ icon here, still preserved in St Catherine's Monastery in Sinai since the 700's... it gives me the chills. This depiction can cause you to meditate for hours on the dual nature of Jesus Christ, wholly man and wholly God, our savior and our judge. Do I need this image to meditate upon these things? No. Is there anything wrong with this visual aid? No.
 
Wonderful icon. Gives me chills too, so much history has come to us from this icon. I enjoy many of the Eastern Orthodox traditions.
 
Abishai100 said:
Church ornaments help people create a mental space for spiritualism bearing and therefore can be discussed for issues regarding mysticism dialogue.
Click to expand...

Christian worship should be based upon what is revealed in the New Testament. When Christ proclaimed with a loud voice on the cross "It is finished", He not only finished the work of redemption, but He put aside the Old Testament pattern of worship. That is why the veil within the temple at Jerusalem was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:50,51). For further insight we must go to the epistle to the Hebrews.

New Testament worship was simplicity itself, and the only "ornaments" were the loaf of unleavened bread and the cup of unfermented "fruit of the vine" (1 Corinthians 11:23-34). The worship which God now requires is "worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). Believers are invited to enter into the very presence of God in Heaven by the power of the Holy Spirit, and to bring their worship to Him without any intermediaries (Hebrews 10:19-25) while they remember the Lord Jesus Christ in "the breaking of bread".

The sad fact is that many churches have disregarded the "simplicity of Christ" and reverted to all kinds of practices which have no New Testament authority. "Spiritualism" and "mysticism" are foreign to Christ, although they are rooted in Gnosticism.
 
Malachi said:
...and the cup of unfermented "fruit of the vine"...
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You made an effort to assert "the cup" contained an "unfermented fruit of the vine" and drew special attention to it by typing it in bold font. So it seems you are pretty sure of this and I'm curious what scripture you support this with since the one you cited doesn't say this?
 
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