Churches today - more of a social gathering.

[Obadiah]

Of course not, but that hardly means we should defer to the church that feeds us coffee and muffins over and above the Word of God. It's okay to pick a church because of the quality of spiritual food that gets served. But I'm afraid the quality of donuts and funny stories served wins out these days...

I'm one who's initial positive impression of a church that had a big influence on my becoming a member was the fact that they served coffee and snacks and it was even OK to take your coffee and snacks into the worship service with you.

However the point I want to make is that not everyone who looks at these kind of things in evaluating a church is simply looking to satisfy their own earthly desire for comfort and entertainment. I certainly wasn't looking for a church because I wanted to be allowed to drink coffee during the worship service! In fact, I would even think that among Christians, those who look only for the entertainment value may even be in the minority. What struck me when I was not only offered coffee and snacks but was told I could even take them into the service, was that this showed me that maybe this was a church that didn't put their highest priority on keeping their carpets and chairs free of dirt from spilled food, but rather a church that wanted people to feel welcome and appreciated so they would keep coming back and therefore be edified, even if that came at the cost of some spilled coffee and muffin crumbs trampled into the carpet once in a while. Afterall, food, drink, good music, and even dancing with joy were all part of the worship and fellowship of the original early Christians!

It turned out I was correct. The pastor was a man dedicated to God who preached good, practical, edifying sermons from God's word. Same with Bible studies and Sunday School. The priorities were strongly on God's word and on Growth in Christ rather than on enforcing man made rules about avoiding food or "entertainment" or the many other things so many churches are condemned for (many times by people who don't attend those churches themselves, so really don't even know what's really being done in them.)

Sadly, as it turned out, the church did eventually have a falling away from the true faith I first saw there. But this was not from focusing on "entertainment". It came from a radical change in leadership and a subsequent losing of faith on the part of the new leadership.

 

[Willie T]

Churches are...imperfect. Even when Christianity first got started, you have references in the NT to churches that gave preference to the affluent, churches with false teachers, churches that had grown "lukewarm" in their devotion to Christ. Why should/would things be any different now, in the 21st century, post-Christian era?

Speaking as a stigmatized person (mental illness labels, etc.), churches have a lot of room for improvement. Around here, church is for respectable people, especially the mega-churches and mainline denominations. The poor, the ostracized...look elsewhere, please. I mean, its crazy. I get the distinct impression that I'm simply not welcome at the little PCUSA church I grew up in...and I'm not the only one.

Church is for people, and people are fallible. At best, church is where sinners saved by grace gather to learn and grow and build each other up. In reality, churches have feuds, split, shut down, get too big to disciple people, stray from sound doctrine, etc. Social issues--social class issues, race issues, etc.--play a big role in church politics. Where I live, only the Pentecostal and Catholic churches seem to have a good racial mix. The PCUSA church I grew up in is for well-educated white folks, for instance. Even the Catholic churches are divided, mostly by socioeconomic status. Here locally, there's an affluent Catholic church and a church for less affluent people, mostly black people and fairly recent Hispanic immigrants. I don't think that's terribly unusual.

Anyway....the social aspect of church *is* important. The problem is that people like to socialize with people who are like them, plus people bring all their "issues" to church with them.

Why do you think I attend The Vineyard?

 

[Willie T]

I'm one who's initial positive impression of a church that had a big influence on my becoming a member was the fact that they served coffee and snacks and it was even OK to take your coffee and snacks into the worship service with you.

However the point I want to make is that not everyone who looks at these kind of things in evaluating a church is simply looking to satisfy their own earthly desire for comfort and entertainment. I certainly wasn't looking for a church because I wanted to be allowed to drink coffee during the worship service! In fact, I would even think that among Christians, those who look only for the entertainment value may even be in the minority. What struck me when I was not only offered coffee and snacks but was told I could even take them into the service, was that this showed me that maybe this was a church that didn't put their highest priority on keeping their carpets and chairs free of dirt from spilled food, but rather a church that wanted people to feel welcome and appreciated so they would keep coming back and therefore be edified, even if that came at the cost of some spilled coffee and muffin crumbs trampled into the carpet once in a while. Afterall, food, drink, good music, and even dancing with joy were all part of the worship and fellowship of the original early Christians!

It turned out I was correct. The pastor was a man dedicated to God who preached good, practical, edifying sermons from God's word. Same with Bible studies and Sunday School. The priorities were strongly on God's word and on Growth in Christ rather than on enforcing man made rules about avoiding food or "entertainment" or the many other things so many churches are condemned for (many times by people who don't attend those churches themselves, so really don't even know what's really being done in them.)

Sadly, as it turned out, the church did eventually have a falling away from the true faith I first saw there. But this was not from focusing on "entertainment". It came from a radical change in leadership and a subsequent losing of faith on the part of the new leadership.

Wal ! Whoda thunk? I'm very favorably surprised.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...we should play soccer in church.

Yeah, then we can all get in fights with each other out in the parking lot after service.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Seeing a church as "Bible based" scares me, but one that is "Jesus Centered" says, home.

Actually, the Bible does teach us how to have church. I guess it depends on how much of the Bible a church is based on as to whether it is scary, or not. Full gospel churches used to be quick to explain how their meetings included ALL of the gospel in the Bible, not just parts of it (hence the FULL gospel). They had a good point. IMO, a good Bible based church meeting considers the instructions found in 1 Corinthians 14.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

like schull?

Huh?

 

[Willie T]

Actually, the Bible does teach us how to have church. I guess it depends on how much of the Bible a church is based on as to whether it is scary, or not. Full gospel churches used to be quick to explain how their meetings included ALL of the gospel in the Bible, not just parts of it (hence the FULL gospel). They had a good point. IMO, a good Bible based church meeting considers the instructions found in 1 Corinthians 14.

Unfortunately, most of the people I have discussed this with have almost all experienced "Bible based" churches as being rigidly exclusionary and judgmentally elite.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes,I used to.I love the way they absorb the word of God.

'SpongeBible Square Pants' Kids Bible Study 9:30 AM

 

[Gary]

Yeah, then we can all get in fights with each other out in the parking lot after service.

And people could roll around on the ground pretending to be hurt just like they do in real soccer.

Sounds like a plan...
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Unfortunately, most of the people I have discussed this with have almost all experienced "Bible based" churches as being rigidly exclusionary and judgmentally elite.

Oh, I'm well aware of that, lol. People who read their Bibles, and dismiss any and all indoctrinations about what they read, know if a meeting of the saints is Biblical, or not.

 

[Obadiah]

I wonder if it the fact that the parents that send these kids to church or allow them to go aren't saved. or that they don't demonstrate the walk. what good is it for the church to teach teens if they don't live it daily? sure they can. but if no one Is going to start them from the birth to be a Christian its not the church's job to raise kids. I see that problem with the youth I do teach as an assistant. they listen when they want too. they have a problem with respect at times. they need a solid figure to be that man to lead them. yes one could start a ministry for that but still it must be daily. I wonder if that is really where the problem is.
we:
1) assume that the pastor is the one whom should teach us the word only
2) assume that we cant study the bible as he did on our own
3) fail to pray, study daily
and so on.

Classik, feel free to skip my post if you wish. I'm writing to Jason and others who might be interested. Not meaning to hijack your thread here.

As someone who worked with youth in the past and am now finally going back to that, I agree with a lot of what you've said here. Another problem is the parents who might even be Christians, but just view the church youth program as a free babysitting service to get their kids out of their hair for a few hours every week so they can have their own fun that doesn't include the rest of their family. This is why a dedicated, true youth worker involves himself in the entire family, working with the parents to teach and guide them in their role in the spiritual lives of their teenagers and learning what the issues of the parents are, as well as working with the teenagers themselves. Nothing is done purely for entertainment or fun. There is always a method for the (outwardly appearing) entertainment and fun in a youth program that ultimately leads to edification. When these methods are followed faithfully and with trust in the power of God's Spirit to move in the lives of all involved (the teens themselves, the parents, and yes EVEN the adults working with the youth leader!) then the result is a strong youth ministry guiding teenagers to follow the Lord and His will even after they have left home and gone on their own way. I know this to be true. This is how I work with youth, and I have testimonies from many who are now in mid-life who still follow the Lord as a direct result of a proper youth ministry when they were teenagers. If they have not fallen away by now, it's doubtful they will later either.

Sadly, one of the big problems in this area is the prevalence of church leadership who see the youth as second rate Christians (if they see them as Christians at all) and see the youth worker as a second rate part time or strictly voluntary person in the church who's job it is to simply play games and have fun with the kids. (Not saying that churches with little money have to pay their youth workers, but if they are paying for janitors, new carpets, and these kind of material things yet refuse to pay a minister for his work, this shows they consider sweeping the floors and having a nice looking building is more important than is their people's spiritual well being.) This attitude among leadership results in youth workers who are, at best, people who desire to work in ministry but see youth ministry as just a stepping stone to a "higher" position of assistant pastor or senior pastor. (So all the youth get are inexperienced "interns" or ministry students who likely have little to no dedication to them as important growing Christians.) At worst, this produces youth workers who are nothing more than concerned parents who have no real training or talents/gifts for ministry at all, but are simply the one who was willing to take on the job, so the leadership gladly plugs them into it and moves on to the next issue, never to worry about the youth again (until some crisis comes up). This attitude is what produces youth leaders who have no calling nor talent for ministering to youth and are simply paying their dues so they can be allowed to move on to something "bigger" or simply fulfilling their perceived need to "do something" for their church. This is one of the main reasons a lot of youth ministries truly do become little or nothing more than fun and games. It's also a big factor that is contributing to 90% of teenagers leaving the church as soon as they graduate from high school and no longer see themselves as under their parents authority, who had been forcing them to go to church all along.

 

[Willie T]

It IS interesting that as I have seen a wealth of things over the years (actually, decades), anymore, when I see churches proudly displaying "certain" religious statements or phrases on their marquees, I don't even consider opening their doors.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Around here, church is for respectable people, especially the mega-churches and mainline denominations. The poor, the ostracized...look elsewhere, please. I mean, its crazy.

I made this observation, too. Church, it seems, is for the successful, not for the struggling. That's messed up. But then again, I'm not sure I want to fellowship with some of the messed up folks who need to be in church. This is where good, solid, capable leadership comes in. It keeps the weirdos in line while still allowing them to fellowship with the rest of us slightly less than weird believers.

 

[Willie T]

Classik, feel free to skip my post if you wish. I'm writing to Jason and others who might be interested. Not meaning to hijack your thread here.

As someone who worked with youth in the past and am now finally going back to that, I agree with a lot of what you've said here. Another problem is the parents who might even be Christians, but just view the church youth program as a free babysitting service to get their kids out of their hair for a few hours every week so they can have their own fun that doesn't include the rest of their family. This is why a dedicated, true youth worker involves himself in the entire family, working with the parents to teach and guide them in their role in the spiritual lives of their teenagers and learning what the issues of the parents are, as well as working with the teenagers themselves. Nothing is done purely for entertainment or fun. There is always a method for the (outwardly appearing) entertainment and fun in a youth program that ultimately leads to edification. When these methods are followed faithfully and with trust in the power of God's Spirit to move in the lives of all involved (the teens themselves, the parents, and yes EVEN the adults working with the youth leader!) then the result is a strong youth ministry guiding teenagers to follow the Lord and His will even after they have left home and gone on their own way. I know this to be true. This is how I work with youth, and I have testimonies from many who are now in mid-life who still follow the Lord as a direct result of a proper youth ministry when they were teenagers. If they have not fallen away by now, it's doubtful they will later either.

Sadly, one of the big problems in this area is the prevalence of church leadership who see the youth as second rate Christians (if they see them as Christians at all) and see the youth worker as a second rate part time or strictly voluntary person in the church who's job it is to simply play games and have fun with the kids. (Not saying that churches with little money have to pay their youth workers, but if they are paying for janitors, new carpets, and these kind of material things yet refuse to pay a minister for his work, this shows they consider sweeping the floors and having a nice looking building is more important than is their people's spiritual well being.) This attitude among leadership results in youth workers who are, at best, people who desire to work in ministry but see youth ministry as just a stepping stone to a "higher" position of assistant pastor or senior pastor. (So all the youth get are inexperienced "interns" or ministry students who likely have little to no dedication to them as important growing Christians.) At worst, this produces youth workers who are nothing more than concerned parents who have no real training or talents/gifts for ministry at all, but are simply the one who was willing to take on the job, so the leadership gladly plugs them into it and moves on to the next issue, never to worry about the youth again (until some crisis comes up). This attitude is what produces youth leaders who have no calling nor talent for ministering to youth and are simply paying their dues so they can be allowed to move on to something "bigger" or simply fulfilling their perceived need to "do something" for their church. This is one of the main reasons a lot of youth ministries truly do become little or nothing more than fun and games. It's also a big factor that is contributing to 90% of teenagers leaving the church as soon as they graduate from high school and no longer see themselves as under their parents authority, who had been forcing them to go to church all along.

A truly sad and extremely accurate commentary on most of our youth ministries.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...even dancing with joy were all part of the worship and fellowship of the original early Christians!

Ah yes, the dance of joy....

 

[Willie T]

I made this observation, too. Church, it seems, is for the successful, not for the struggling. That's messed up. But then again, I'm not sure I want to fellowship with some of the messed up folks who need to be in church. This is where good, solid, capable leadership comes in. It keeps the weirdos in line while still allowing them to fellowship with the rest of us less than weird believers.

Again, this is why The Vineyard exists...... AND why not a lot of pretty people want to have much to do with us.

 

[jeff77]

Classik, feel free to skip my post if you wish. I'm writing to Jason and others who might be interested. Not meaning to hijack your thread here.

As someone who worked with youth in the past and am now finally going back to that, I agree with a lot of what you've said here. Another problem is the parents who might even be Christians, but just view the church youth program as a free babysitting service to get their kids out of their hair for a few hours every week so they can have their own fun that doesn't include the rest of their family. This is why a dedicated, true youth worker involves himself in the entire family, working with the parents to teach and guide them in their role in the spiritual lives of their teenagers and learning what the issues of the parents are, as well as working with the teenagers themselves. Nothing is done purely for entertainment or fun. There is always a method for the (outwardly appearing) entertainment and fun in a youth program that ultimately leads to edification. When these methods are followed faithfully and with trust in the power of God's Spirit to move in the lives of all involved (the teens themselves, the parents, and yes EVEN the adults working with the youth leader!) then the result is a strong youth ministry guiding teenagers to follow the Lord and His will even after they have left home and gone on their own way. I know this to be true. This is how I work with youth, and I have testimonies from many who are now in mid-life who still follow the Lord as a direct result of a proper youth ministry when they were teenagers. If they have not fallen away by now, it's doubtful they will later either.

Sadly, one of the big problems in this area is the prevalence of church leadership who see the youth as second rate Christians (if they see them as Christians at all) and see the youth worker as a second rate part time or strictly voluntary person in the church who's job it is to simply play games and have fun with the kids. (Not saying that churches with little money have to pay their youth workers, but if they are paying for janitors, new carpets, and these kind of material things yet refuse to pay a minister for his work, this shows they consider sweeping the floors and having a nice looking building is more important than is their people's spiritual well being.) This attitude among leadership results in youth workers who are, at best, people who desire to work in ministry but see youth ministry as just a stepping stone to a "higher" position of assistant pastor or senior pastor. (So all the youth get are inexperienced "interns" or ministry students who likely have little to no dedication to them as important growing Christians.) At worst, this produces youth workers who are nothing more than concerned parents who have no real training or talents/gifts for ministry at all, but are simply the one who was willing to take on the job, so the leadership gladly plugs them into it and moves on to the next issue, never to worry about the youth again (until some crisis comes up). This attitude is what produces youth leaders who have no calling nor talent for ministering to youth and are simply paying their dues so they can be allowed to move on to something "bigger" or simply fulfilling their perceived need to "do something" for their church. This is one of the main reasons a lot of youth ministries truly do become little or nothing more than fun and games. It's also a big factor that is contributing to 90% of teenagers leaving the church as soon as they graduate from high school and no longer see themselves as under their parents authority, who had been forcing them to go to church all along.

I think the youth ministry is one of the most important because a lot of teenagers are probably baby Christians and are just beginning to be exposed to the temptations of the world. This is a time when they would be most vulnerable to Satan's attack. I wish I had realized this when I was at that age.

 

[Classik]

Yeah, then we can all get in fights with each other out in the parking lot after service.

Yea...and shoot guns at one another

 

[Classik]

And people could roll around on the ground pretending to be hurt just like they do in real soccer.

Sounds like a plan...
.

How did you know about this trick? Have you been converted? Welcome to the universe of soccer.

 

[reba]

Unfortunately, most of the people I have discussed this with have almost all experienced "Bible based" churches as being rigidly exclusionary and judgmentally elite.

To me the two terms are interchangeable.. I sure can see what you are saying...

Worship learning all that comes first... then the unity of people fellowship ... formal churches are 'right' for some folks like my sister. (She was born a proper lady) me lets set around the room or grass and have a Bible study... although it has become some what harder to get off the ground these days...