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Co-Redemptrix

Is Co-Redemptrix

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DivineNames said:
BradtheImpaler said:
Mary was not a surrogate nor did she impart deity to Christ. Then what exactly did happen there that warrants Mary being the Mother of God? (Is this another simple contradiction dressed up as a "Divine Mystery"?)

"Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm


She didn't impart deity as you say, I guess she was the mother of the human nature 'part' of Jesus however.

Hi DN! :):

As near as I can determine, James agrees that she did not "impart deity", however, he appearently believes she was more than just the mother of the human nature (which is more a Protestant explanation) - as if there is some reality inbetween imparting divinity and not imparting divinity. :-?

Or perhaps there is the insinuation that God the Fetus, being God and being physically connected with Mary in conception and during gestation, imparted divinity to her to some extent? I feel it is clear that something is being implied that goes beyond Mary having just "faith and obedience" when we hear that she is regarded as "more glorious than the Cherubim" etc.
 
In reality Mary is the daughter of God; not the mother since God created her. She is only the physical mother, like normal earthly parents. If you want to say that she is the mother of God then you get yourself wrapped in a paradox.
 
Gendou Ikari said:
In reality Mary is the daughter of God; not the mother since God created her. She is only the physical mother, like normal earthly parents. If you want to say that she is the mother of God then you get yourself wrapped in a paradox.
Paradoxes are not bad...

Christianity is FULL of paradoxes... for instance: life from death. This is true, is it not? We receive our life by the death and resurrection of Christ (the only one who did not deserve to die). That is a paradox.
 
BradtheImpaler said:
Hi DN! :):

As near as I can determine, James agrees that she did not "impart deity", however, he appearently believes she was more than just the mother of the human nature (which is more a Protestant explanation) - as if there is some reality inbetween imparting divinity and not imparting divinity. :-?

Or perhaps there is the insinuation that God the Fetus, being God and being physically connected with Mary in conception and during gestation, imparted divinity to her to some extent? I feel it is clear that something is being implied that goes beyond Mary having just "faith and obedience" when we hear that she is regarded as "more glorious than the Cherubim" etc.


I had assumed that this issue was not about religious fact, but about the religious appropriateness of venerating Mary. Perhaps a Catholic could explain the exact sense in which Mary is the "Mother of God"?
 
CatholicXian said:
Gendou Ikari said:
In reality Mary is the daughter of God; not the mother since God created her. She is only the physical mother, like normal earthly parents. If you want to say that she is the mother of God then you get yourself wrapped in a paradox.
Paradoxes are not bad...

Christianity is FULL of paradoxes... for instance: life from death. This is true, is it not? We receive our life by the death and resurrection of Christ (the only one who did not deserve to die). That is a paradox.

Naahhh,..... no paradox,...... just what it cost God to redeem His lost creation.

God could have started over but He wanted to work with what He had already done.

His choice, His decision, His way. no paradox here.

God did not get life from death, God gave life to death.


In love,
cj
 
cj said:
CatholicXian said:
Gendou Ikari said:
In reality Mary is the daughter of God; not the mother since God created her. She is only the physical mother, like normal earthly parents. If you want to say that she is the mother of God then you get yourself wrapped in a paradox.
Paradoxes are not bad...

Christianity is FULL of paradoxes... for instance: life from death. This is true, is it not? We receive our life by the death and resurrection of Christ (the only one who did not deserve to die). That is a paradox.

Naahhh,..... no paradox,...... just what it cost God to redeem His lost creation.

God could have started over but He wanted to work with what He had already done.

His choice, His decision, His way. no paradox here.

God did not get life from death, God gave life to death.


In love,
cj

Matthew 10:39
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Cor 15:21-22
For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Nah- no paradoxes here.
 
I had assumed that this issue was not about religious fact, but about the religious appropriateness of venerating Mary. Perhaps a Catholic could explain the exact sense in which Mary is the "Mother of God"?

I believe a more accurate entitlement would be "Mary,the Mother of Jesus' Body", since all seem to agree she was not the mother of the divine nature?
 
BradtheImpaler said:
I believe a more accurate entitlement would be "Mary,the Mother of Jesus' Body", since all seem to agree she was not the mother of the divine nature?


It may be more accurate, but I guess it doesn't sound as good.

:D
 
Orthodox Christian said:
Matthew 10:39
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Cor 15:21-22
For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Nah- no paradoxes here.

Absolutely, oh religious one.

But I understand that you would deperately attempt to suggest such as it would give the upper hand to certain men who can better understand your so-called paradox.

This is a paradox..... whosoever will believe, yet chosen.

This is another..... Three, yet One.

This is another.... our will, yet God is sovereign.

The mystical spiritual realm is a mystery to men, yet Christ, He who has been revealed to men, is this realm.

There are many things that we know only in part, but there are many things, such as those you mentioned above, that apostate institutions use in an attempt to have certain men Lord it over others.

When young believers here the word paradox the common reaction is a stance of to hard to understand this, and so people end up trusting others to do it for them. This is wickedness.

Can one and one make two?

You would think so huh.

Yet if I give you one cow and one goat and tell you to make two of either you coud not right.

Your reaction would be that it is easy to understand the truth about the situation.

We should have an approach to the scriptures that encourage folks to believe that they can understand God's word, that it is not hard to understand. And why, because the same Spirit that reveals all things lives in all of us,.... which is the most important thing to know and believe.


OC,...... this is why I am so against your beloved religion, it robs people of the function of God in their living and being. It is Satan again creeping in and causing seperation between men and God.

In love,
cj
 
cj said:
Orthodox Christian said:
Matthew 10:39
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Cor 15:21-22
For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Nah- no paradoxes here.

Absolutely, oh religious one.

But I understand that you would deperately attempt to suggest such as it would give the upper hand to certain men who can better understand your so-called paradox.
1. CJ says "there is no paradox"
2. OC proves that there is
3. CJ says "you're just using these paradoxes to enslave men."

Backpedalling, yet kicking. Got to hand it to you, even in defeat you are not gracious.

CJ said:
This is a paradox..... whosoever will believe, yet chosen.
Not a paradox. This is a complex statement whose truth is found not in its compartmentaliziation, but in its wholeness.
Cj said:
This is another..... Three, yet One.
A paradox which you embrace, one given you by the interpretation of the "institution" you so despise. :lol:
CJ said:
This is another.... our will, yet God is sovereign.
Not a paradox. Part of sovereignty is the ability to delegate authority.

CJ said:
The mystical spiritual realm is a mystery to men, yet Christ, He who has been revealed to men, is this realm.
Jesus is more than Spirit, He is also come in the flesh. By your omission, you deny this
and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.
amen


CJ said:
There are many things that we know only in part, but there are many things, such as those you mentioned above, that apostate institutions use in an attempt to have certain men Lord it over others.

When young believers here the word paradox the common reaction is a stance of to hard to understand this, and so people end up trusting others to do it for them. This is wickedness
But here you are to make sure they understand this, as they trust in you to do so.
Wow, talk about blind spots.

CJ said:
Can one and one make two?

You would think so huh.

Yet if I give you one cow and one goat and tell you to make two of either you coud not right.
That's not the way we do farming north of the Mason-Dixon.

CJ said:
Your reaction would be that it is easy to understand the truth about the situation.

We should have an approach to the scriptures that encourage folks to believe that they can understand God's word, that it is not hard to understand. And why, because the same Spirit that reveals all things lives in all of us,.... which is the most important thing to know and believe
I believe that scriptures are easy to understand,and I believe that you are complicating them with your interpretations.

CJ said:
OC,...... this is why I am so against your beloved religion, it robs people of the function of God in their living and being. It is Satan again creeping in and causing seperation between men and God.

In love,
cj
We've had greater adversaries: Arius, Montanus, Sabellius, Nestorius, Simon Magus, Muhammed, Jim Jones, Barney the purple dinosaur...
I'm certain each of these thought he was doing the work of God, also.
 
OC,...... this is why I am so against your beloved religion, it robs people of the function of God in their living and being. It is Satan again creeping in and causing seperation between men and God.

Being a literalist should you even be having this conversation?

Proverbs 26:4
4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Oh wait, maybe you should...

Proverbs 26:5
5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


It's all so confusing.
 
AwedbyGod said:
OC,...... this is why I am so against your beloved religion, it robs people of the function of God in their living and being. It is Satan again creeping in and causing seperation between men and God.

Being a literalist should you even be having this conversation?

Proverbs 26:4
4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Oh wait, maybe you should...

Proverbs 26:5
5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


It's all so confusing.

SCOOBY%20DOO.shaggy.jpg

"Ruh Roh, Raggy!"
"Yeah, Like Scoob, there's another of those scary Paradoxes! Zoinks!!"
 
Here is an article that I found:

The inspired writer of Proverbs cautioned:

“Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him.â€Â

And then he said:

“Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit†(Prov. 26:4-5).

Is it not remarkable that these two statements, which appear so at odds, are found side-by-side? Do they contradict one another? They do not. The fact that they occur in such close proximity reflects design, not disorder.

These juxtaposed admonitions urge caution in responding to the “fool.†First, it should be observed that in Bible parlance, the “fool†is not merely a simple-minded person; rather, the term denotes one who is spiritually senseless. The fool is an individual who is insensitive to the divine demands for religious and ethical conduct.

Note, then, that in both cases an “answer†is being made to the fool – which means that he had made a statement, asked a question, or offered a challenge that was intended to elicit some response. From that implication, then, comes this general truth. Not all circumstances are of equal merit. There are times to answer the opponent of God, and there are times when he ought to be ignored. And the prudent person must decide when to do what.

Perhaps this principle can be illustrated best from the ministry of Jesus himself; after all, he was the supreme Teacher of all time (Jn. 3:2).

On one occasion, when Jesus was teaching in the temple, the chief priests and elders of the Jewish system approached him and asked: “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?†Rather than answering their questions directly – because they were not honest inquiries – the Lord asked: “Was John’s baptism from heaven or from men?†(Mt. 21:25).

They managed only the confused response: “We don’t know,†for they carefully calculated the dilemma of the Savior’s question. If they denied the validity of John’s mission, they would be in deep trouble with the multitudes – who were impressed with John’s prophetic office.

On the other hand, if they admitted the truth of John’s mission, they could be asked: “Why did you not believe him?†The Lord’s brilliant maneuver, in just the right manner at the most propitious moment, was devastating. These blind guides, who fancied themselves such skilled teachers of the law, needed to be “put in their place,†and the Master-of-all-occasions neatly put them there!

Then again, consider the episode when Jesus was presented to Herod Antipas (during the course of those outrageous “trials†through which he was taken, preliminary to his crucifixion). This wretch, who had beheaded John the Baptist, merely because he was an evil and weak man – controlled by a worse woman, interrogated Christ with “many words.†And yet, significantly, the Lord “answered him nothing†(Lk. 23:9). There was nothing at all to be gained by disputing with this old fool whose main desire was to be entertained by seeing the Savior perform a miracle (cf. v. 8).

The teacher of God’s word will be called upon time and again to make decisions about with whom, and how much time, is to be expended in responding to those who appear to be antagonistic to the gospel. It is a chore of no small magnitude to identify the “dogs†and “hogs†that clutter the religious terrain (Mt. 7:6). One certainly needs wisdom in framing the appropriate response, or non-response, to those who would question him.

This office receives dozens of questions from readers each week. Surprisingly, a good number of them are from skeptics. On a rare occasion, an unbeliever will pose a thoughtful question, which, misguided though it may be, seems to be sincere, and his inquiry is decently presented. To such folks we try to respond, showing, as kindly as possible, the fallacy of the logic, and perhaps the underlying bias harbored. Sometimes we seem to be making some progress, and such is a thrilling reward.

In the vast majority of cases, though, the venomous tongues of infidelity spew nothing but willful ignorance and a disgusting arrogance. Frequently, laced with profanity, these foolish people throw out some trite argument (that has been answered countless times by competent apologists), and demand that it be answered. When I encounter this disposition, I remind myself of something that I read once from the celebrated scholar Thomas H. Horne, who for many years was associated with the British Museum. Horne wrote:

“Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer; and when this is done, the same questin shall be triumphantly asked again next year, as if nothing had ever been written on the subject.â€Â

It is therefore prudent, in most of these instances, to ignore these pathetic souls and let them rant on. Rarely have they anything substantive to say, and it is valueless to spend precious time quibbling with them.
 
Orthodox Christian said:
1. CJ says "there is no paradox"
2. OC proves that there is
3. CJ says "you're just using these paradoxes to enslave men."

Backpedalling, yet kicking. Got to hand it to you, even in defeat you are not gracious.

OC, in all kindness, you seek to deceive while seeming to be ignorant of what you are seeking to do.


Really,....

CJ did not say there is no paradox in the context of there being none in the scriptures,...... what CJ said is that which was being spoken of was not a paradox, nor are the scriptures you presented.

Yet above, in your cleverly manipulated presentation of my speaking you attempt to make it seem that I said that scriptures contain no paradox.

In all honesty, when I read this sort of discoure from you it is very hard for me not to see you as being dishonest in motive.


OC, no one is backpeddling, the truth is, time and time again the religionist deliberately insinuate something that is not in the scriptures, for the purpose of influencing the submission of others.

This an historic fact.


As for the rest of your post, the content is really not worth my time responding to.


In love,
cj
 
AwedbyGod said:
OC,...... this is why I am so against your beloved religion, it robs people of the function of God in their living and being. It is Satan again creeping in and causing seperation between men and God.

Being a literalist should you even be having this conversation?

Proverbs 26:4
4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Oh wait, maybe you should...

Proverbs 26:5
5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


It's all so confusing.

Its confusing because your beloved reliogion has robbed you of the function of God in your understanding of scriptures.


See AwedBy God, just as scriptures declare, your own words expose your darkness.

You attempt to insult another by being clever with that which you admittedly have no clue about.


In love,
cj
 
cj said:
Orthodox Christian said:
1. CJ says "there is no paradox"
2. OC proves that there is
3. CJ says "you're just using these paradoxes to enslave men."

Backpedalling, yet kicking. Got to hand it to you, even in defeat you are not gracious.

OC, in all kindness, you seek to deceive while seeming to be ignorant of what you are seeking to do.


Really,....

CJ did not say there is no paradox in the context of there being none in the scriptures,...... what CJ said is that which was being spoken of was not a paradox, nor are the scriptures you presented.

Yet above, in your cleverly manipulated presentation of my speaking you attempt to make it seem that I said that scriptures contain no paradox.

In all honesty, when I read this sort of discoure from you it is very hard for me not to see you as being dishonest in motive.


OC, no one is backpeddling, the truth is, time and time again the religionist deliberately insinuate something that is not in the scriptures, for the purpose of influencing the submission of others.

This an historic fact.


As for the rest of your post, the content is really not worth my time responding to.


In love,
cj
What you are carping about here is me objecting to what you said, and allegedly not perceiving what it is that you really meant. Conversely, you are fond of contradicting what we say, and telling us what we really mean.

And you have the unmitigated audacity to object to being pinned in the course of a short debate.
 
I am not Ortodox nor Catholic, but I would like to submit I agree with alot of the things that both Orthodoxy and CatholicXian have said about Mary? Wow an agreement!

I would point out something that CatholicXian stated about Mary suffering with Jesus on the cross on what level do you mean by this. Because as a father of four I suffer with my kids when they are in pain or for a number of different reasons.
 
Everyone,

Keep the debate from getting personal. Any more personal attacks and warnings will get handed out.

Thanks. :D
 
Orthodox Christian said:
What you are carping about here is me objecting to what you said, and allegedly not perceiving what it is that you really meant. Conversely, you are fond of contradicting what we say, and telling us what we really mean.

And you have the unmitigated audacity to object to being pinned in the course of a short debate.

You're fooling yourself again OC,... you've certainly not pinned me in anything.

What you have done is blatantly lied, much as you normally do.

Anyone can simply check the posts and see for themselves. But perhaps your hope is they won't.


Have no fear though, I'll keep reminding all of your seemingly unmitigated abject propensity to conduct yourself in the wicked manner of your beloved apostate institution.

You are what you eat.


In love,
cj
 
cj said:
Orthodox Christian said:
What you are carping about here is me objecting to what you said, and allegedly not perceiving what it is that you really meant. Conversely, you are fond of contradicting what we say, and telling us what we really mean.

And you have the unmitigated audacity to object to being pinned in the course of a short debate.

You're fooling yourself again OC,... you've certainly not pinned me in anything.

What you have done is blatantly lied, much as you normally do.

Anyone can simply check the posts and see for themselves. But perhaps your hope is they won't.


Have no fear though, I'll keep reminding all of your seemingly unmitigated abject propensity to conduct yourself in the wicked manner of your beloved apostate institution.

You are what you eat.


In love,
cj
Nothing of personal attack in any of that^^^ now is there. :roll:

I expect it will continue as long as warnings are not followed with actions against infractions.
 
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