Cognitive dissonance and theology

[PeterJens]

Someone wanted examples of cognitive dissonance in a theological perspective.
What is cognitive dissonance? This is jumping between ideas which do not actually
link and accepting they do.
In reality we do this all the time, because often we do not have time to make the
connections, and just have to accept the group understanding. This is fine until we
discover the concepts are not connected and the jump is a way of avoiding awkward
realities.

So one obvious one is God is a God of love, yet He bring judgement and destroys many
things. Another is we are called to see the world ordered by His will, yet some are born into
extraordinarily difficult situations and others have it easy. Is this fair?

In theological discussions one point would be, Jesus promises something so this applies
to all, eternally, while in the next paragraph He puts conditions on the promises but this
only applies to some listeners.

In truth this might be true depending on the subjects, but without critical thinking it would
be easy to have cognitive dissonance, so the words are just blanked out and dismissed
whatever the meaning. You know this is happening when people start saying, the right
teacher will help you, and this group over here are brain washed, but we have been
de-programmed and now see the real problem.

So a classic example is this sentence by Jesus,
21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:21-24

Looking at the sentence. To know Christ and God is to do His will.
Doing prophesy, casting out demons, miracles in Jesus's name does not qualify one.
Hearing Jesus's words and putting them into practice does.

Now I have had quoted to me this very verse to mean hypocrites, self righteous people are
doing acts to prove they know God, and are cast out because they do not know him at all.
The prophecy, casting out and miracles has become good works and rejected.
Doing the will of God is believing Jesus is the Messiah. Putting His words into practice is
believing His promises, and is wise.

But this requires one to change the meaning of the words and to create a different logic.
The sermon on the mount is merely to show righteousness and the total failure of man,
to show they need Christ. So Jesus could not have meant putting these actions into
effect because that is impossible, it must be believing His promises.

Now critical thinking will say, yes, this is possible, except it is taking an extreme interpretation.
Are the aspirations and words of Jesus that hard to do? No, but 100% from day one, no that
is too much. So the argument comes, one failure undermines everything so it is all sarcasm,
rather than it is a walk, with learning, practice and transformation.

So a problem of being changed, and growing into a child of the Kingdom, becomes the reason
to compromise and abandon morality. That is cognitive dissonance. And it is shown when
people who hold such a position will not even take on board the others point of view, and why
it might be valid. What you will get is "liar", "slanderer", "blasphemer", "heretic", "denier of
Jesus's promises", "legalist", "works salvationist", "sending people to hell", "preaching doctrines
of demons". There is no true answer to this, because the leap of logic leads them to these
conclusions, which must be true, or you would agree with them.

This problem is this is a reverse form of legalism. One failure causes guilt, so abandon all morality.
In legalism it is one failure cannot be forgiven, so one is rejected from the group unless one
conforms to the groups identity which normally is many different group rules beyond scripture.
In legalism, you never admit problems so end up in hypocracy, without the ability to grow and
change because it is all hidden. Both approaches fail to understand love and growth, and
working with where we are and where we need to get to.

Also both approaches are also true in part. It is why extremes are so dangerous and working
through the balances so important. But one has to apply critical thinking and work through
cognitive dissonance until all the leaps of logic are resolved which may take a life time.
God bless you,
Peter

 

[chessman]

Hearing Jesus's words and putting them into practice does.

Would you include as an example of cognitive dissonance, the belief that someone will actually stand before the Lord and hear Him say; ‘I knew you for a while but then you committed to much sin for me to accept you’?

Wouldn’t Jesus words indicate that the otherwise cognitive Truth is that He actually “never knew” evil doers? (even though you didn’t bold those particular words in His Matt 7 statements)

 

[ezra]

cognitive dissonance is in every major denomination . if your not there flavor you can attend but not do anything only they call it division

 

[JLB]

Would you include as an example of cognitive dissonance, the belief that someone will actually stand before the Lord and hear Him say; ‘I knew you for a while but then you committed to much sin for me to accept you’?

Wouldn’t Jesus words indicate that the otherwise cognitive Truth is that He actually “never knew” evil doers? (even though you didn’t bold those particular words in His Matt 7 statements)

Since we don’t have any scripture of Jesus saying ‘I knew you for a while but then you committed to much sin for me to accept you’, we just don’t know what all He will say to each of us.

What we do know for sure, because we have scripture, is He will put His servants into one of two groups, and say these words.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

Or He will say -

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Would you include as an example of cognitive dissonance, the belief that someone will actually stand before the Lord and hear Him say; ‘I knew you for a while but then you committed to much sin for me to accept you’?

Wouldn’t Jesus words indicate that the otherwise cognitive Truth is that He actually “never knew” evil doers? (even though you didn’t bold those particular words in His Matt 7 statements)

I agree with your proposition. Knowing someone is about more than just rule understanding or keeping.
I think of Jesus and His relationship with Judas. There was a reserve in Judas where the disciples suggest
he never actually believed Jesus was the Christ, he stayed on the fence and sold Him out.

Abraham and offering Isaac. Why did God say, "Now I know you fear God."
So do we truly know who we are only ultimately because of our actions, in other words until we put into effect
our aspirations they are still aspirations. So if I have faith, yet never exercise it, it implies I was just aspiring
to it, but never entered in.

Jesus talked about the weeds and the good seed. The two exist side by side, but in a sense the Lord is saying
it does not matter, what is is what is. I have met many people of different types and emphasis. I have known
believers who to my doctrinal view are wrong, yet follow the Lord, and those who appear sound, who do not.

So Jesus appears to be declaring doing the will of the Father is the reality of the Kingdom, loving other people,
not out of duty, but because you know Jesus and you know the Kingdom. Now I know some will not understand
what I am writing, they will be confused. Just listen to Jesus and walk in His ways. This is my conclusion, because
others will do what they will do, and see as they desire, but it does not change the realities involved.

 

[PeterJens]

cognitive dissonance is in every major denomination . if your not there flavor you can attend but not do anything only they call it division

I agree. Cognitive dissonance is a compromise of life and learning, but I see Jesus calling us to grow beyond
this into maturity. As Paul said

So we are no longer to be children, tossed back and forth by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching by the trickery of people who craftily carry out their deceitful schemes.
But practicing the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ, who is the head.
From him the whole body grows, fitted and held together through every supporting ligament. As each one does its part, the body grows in love. Live in Holiness
Eph 4:14-16

Paul is calling us to live in Holiness, to practice the truth in love.
Big things, or maybe real things that we exalt as other, because we fear to investigate.

 

[ezra]

I agree. Cognitive dissonance is a compromise of life and learning, but I see Jesus calling us to grow beyond
this into maturity. As Paul said

So we are no longer to be children, tossed back and forth by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching by the trickery of people who craftily carry out their deceitful schemes.
But practicing the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ, who is the head.
From him the whole body grows, fitted and held together through every supporting ligament. As each one does its part, the body grows in love. Live in Holiness
Eph 4:14-16

Paul is calling us to live in Holiness, to practice the truth in love.
Big things, or maybe real things that we exalt as other, because we fear to investigate.

some enjoy being tossed to and fro its a type work out for them

 

[Runner]

Just listen to Jesus and walk in His ways. This is my conclusion, because
others will do what they will do, and see as they desire, but it does not change the realities involved.

All varieties of Christian theology produce cognitive dissonance. This is true even at the highest levels of Christian theology and apologetics. Trying to make logical sense of the Bible or even of Jesus’ teachings is a trap, guaranteed to produce cognitive dissonance.

The vast majority of sincere Christians manage to exist in this state of cognitive dissonance. Some of them exist in an almost comical state of cognitive dissonance, others in a more sophisticated one. Non-believers can see this (although they are not as perceptive about that states of cognitive dissonance in which most of them exist as well.)

I strongly suspect that most Christians do not believe a great deal of what they pretend to believe. At some deep, intuitive level, they know the “truths” they spout are not ontologically true. Pretending to believe things one does not really believe is required if one is going to function in a state of cognitive dissonance. This is as true of New Atheists as sincere Christians.

Many spiritual disciplines, notably Zen but many others as well, are based on the premise that true understanding can occur only when one awakens from the state of cognitive dissonance in which most people exist. True understanding occurs when one awakens, and true spirituality occurs when one realizes that the divine cannot be grasped through logic and analysis. “Christianity” of the sort we see at sites such as this, with their tidy little Statements of Faith, is as disconnected from true spirituality as it could possibly be.

You recognize the problem, but then you conclude that the answer is to “Just listen to Jesus and walk in His ways.” What does this mean? The Jesus of the gospels is a complex, somewhat inconsistent and not entirely nice or pleasant character.

Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Sell all that you have and give to the poor and come follow me.

Do you know anyone who does these things? Do you know anyone who really even attempts to do these things? No, you do not, and I don’t either. They simply state the impossible. Jesus may as well have said, “Fly off the top of tall buildings and drop gospel tracts on the people below.”

Do you seriously think Jesus thought his followers would do these things? I don’t believe he did – but if he did, 2,000 years of evidence show he was clearly wrong.

The similarity of many of Jesus’ statements to the teachings of Zen has often been noted. I believe that Jesus, like a Zen master, intended to produce a state of cognitive dissonance in his listeners. As they wrestled with his impossible teachings, like a Zen student with a koan that has no logical answer, they might eventually awaken to what he was actually saying. He certainly did not intend that his teachings would blossom into a goofy, cognitively dissonant, divisive, spirit-killing “system” calling itself Christianity.

I think the real answer lies beyond listening to Jesus and walking in his ways, if by this you mean following or trying to follow some sort of path based on Jesus’ words. I am not going to attempt to put into words what I believe the answer is. For one thing, the answer cannot be put into words: The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. For another, it is an answer that is meaningful only if one discovers it for oneself. “Solving” a Zen koan is a matter of demonstrating one’s awakening, not of providing a “correct” answer to the master.

I would say that the answer is still “recognizably Christian,” but probably not in a way that 99.9% of the participants on this forum would recognize as Christian according to their definitions. If I were to venture a one-word clue, it would be “acceptance.”

Your original post, recognizing the cognitive dissonance that exists within Christianity (and all other belief and non-belief systems of which I am aware), places you far ahead of the pack. Most participants here will have no understanding of what you are trying to say, or even any interest in it. They are too busy trying to prop up and defend the cognitively dissonant houses of cards in which they live. You will notice, if you have not already, that those who think in deeper terms do not last long on this forum or others like it. They move on, because there is literally nothing here.

I’m not suggesting my spirituality is more advanced than yours. Perhaps what you mean by listening to Jesus and walking in his ways is the same thing I mean by “finding the answer.” If not, I would simply encourage you to keep asking, “What does it mean to arrive at a spirituality that does not require me to exist in a state of cognitive dissonance at all?”

 

[PeterJens]

All varieties of Christian theology produce cognitive dissonance. This is true even at the highest levels of Christian theology and apologetics. Trying to make logical sense of the Bible or even of Jesus’ teachings is a trap, guaranteed to produce cognitive dissonance.

The vast majority of sincere Christians manage to exist in this state of cognitive dissonance. Some of them exist in an almost comical state of cognitive dissonance, others in a more sophisticated one. Non-believers can see this (although they are not as perceptive about that states of cognitive dissonance in which most of them exist as well.)

I strongly suspect that most Christians do not believe a great deal of what they pretend to believe. At some deep, intuitive level, they know the “truths” they spout are not ontologically true. Pretending to believe things one does not really believe is required if one is going to function in a state of cognitive dissonance. This is as true of New Atheists as sincere Christians.

Many spiritual disciplines, notably Zen but many others as well, are based on the premise that true understanding can occur only when one awakens from the state of cognitive dissonance in which most people exist. True understanding occurs when one awakens, and true spirituality occurs when one realizes that the divine cannot be grasped through logic and analysis. “Christianity” of the sort we see at sites such as this, with their tidy little Statements of Faith, is as disconnected from true spirituality as it could possibly be.

You recognize the problem, but then you conclude that the answer is to “Just listen to Jesus and walk in His ways.” What does this mean? The Jesus of the gospels is a complex, somewhat inconsistent and not entirely nice or pleasant character.

Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Sell all that you have and give to the poor and come follow me.

Do you know anyone who does these things? Do you know anyone who really even attempts to do these things? No, you do not, and I don’t either. They simply state the impossible. Jesus may as well have said, “Fly off the top of tall buildings and drop gospel tracts on the people below.”

Do you seriously think Jesus thought his followers would do these things? I don’t believe he did – but if he did, 2,000 years of evidence show he was clearly wrong.

The similarity of many of Jesus’ statements to the teachings of Zen has often been noted. I believe that Jesus, like a Zen master, intended to produce a state of cognitive dissonance in his listeners. As they wrestled with his impossible teachings, like a Zen student with a koan that has no logical answer, they might eventually awaken to what he was actually saying. He certainly did not intend that his teachings would blossom into a goofy, cognitively dissonant, divisive, spirit-killing “system” calling itself Christianity.

I think the real answer lies beyond listening to Jesus and walking in his ways, if by this you mean following or trying to follow some sort of path based on Jesus’ words. I am not going to attempt to put into words what I believe the answer is. For one thing, the answer cannot be put into words: The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. For another, it is an answer that is meaningful only if one discovers it for oneself. “Solving” a Zen koan is a matter of demonstrating one’s awakening, not of providing a “correct” answer to the master.

I would say that the answer is still “recognizably Christian,” but probably not in a way that 99.9% of the participants on this forum would recognize as Christian according to their definitions. If I were to venture a one-word clue, it would be “acceptance.”

Your original post, recognizing the cognitive dissonance that exists within Christianity (and all other belief and non-belief systems of which I am aware), places you far ahead of the pack. Most participants here will have no understanding of what you are trying to say, or even any interest in it. They are too busy trying to prop up and defend the cognitively dissonant houses of cards in which they live. You will notice, if you have not already, that those who think in deeper terms do not last long on this forum or others like it. They move on, because there is literally nothing here.

I’m not suggesting my spirituality is more advanced than yours. Perhaps what you mean by listening to Jesus and walking in his ways is the same thing I mean by “finding the answer.” If not, I would simply encourage you to keep asking, “What does it mean to arrive at a spirituality that does not require me to exist in a state of cognitive dissonance at all?”

Hello runner,

There is a view that some take that everything is actually an illusion with no sense, just random interactions,
or nihilistic in its origins. What I mean by listening to Jesus, is actually simple, listening to Jesus.
And His ways are the ways of love.

This appears to be a statement of faith.
"Do you know anyone who does these things? Do you know anyone who really even attempts to do these things? No, you do not, and I don’t either. They simply state the impossible."

And the answer I would give to such a statement is every believer who desires to follow Christ loves.
And I am one, and I know others who attempt to love, and experience Christs love flowing from them.
The problem with such statements for me to believe something different seems to be exercising cognitive
dissonance when I would suggest something else.

I suggest something deeper. Our emotions and experience define our language and how we perceive
the world around us. We spend our lives only feeling our own emotions and our emotions projected on to other
people. The better we are at this empathetic projections the more likely we will get it right, but for the whole of
our lives, it is still just our projection. So I would suggest this subjectivity clouds everything we do.

Now Jesus says something very profound. A pure heart will see God. matt 5:8
So the complexity, the barriers, the struggles, the cloud, the disconnects, the empty rooms, the loneliness, the
hurt, the rejections are down to our own hearts and impurity. He is declaring sort this out, and life will change,
the Kingdom will come, heaven will be born within.

So rather than Jesus has only said a little of the greater reality, He has actually declared everything.
I would propose to reach spiritual maturity is to bridge the gap between the heart and how we behave, because
love dwells in there, living, breathing and in Christ. It is why Christ is not intellectual, rather emotional, and can talk
to all at any level. And it is our intellects that often work so hard to justify our behaviour when all we need to do is
humble ourselves and repent.

So with this background I am coming to cognitive dissonance is not our final destination, rather in Christ is
disappears.

 

[chessman]

What we do know for sure, because we have scripture, is He will put His servants into one of two groups, and say these words.

Can you bold/underline the Scripture you have presented that indicates any cognition of there being any of “His servants” placed on the left where they are sent to the place prepared for The Devil and his angels?

And then get back to the OP Scriptures’ cognition:

Since the cogition of Jesus in Matt 7:23 communicates plainly that those not entering the Kingdom of Heaven have never been known by Him (yet they say they have known Him and have done miracles in His name), is it cognitive dissonance for someone on this site to then say there will be some who do not enter Heaven who have been known by Jesus for a while?

 

[chessman]

Why did God say, "Now I know you fear God."

So that Abraham (and us readers of His recorded Word) would know that Abraham feared God and God knew that he did.

 

[Runner]

There is a view that some take that everything is actually an illusion with no sense, just random interactions, or nihilistic in its origins. What I mean by listening to Jesus, is actually simple, listening to Jesus. And His ways are the ways of love.

Nihilism is certainly not the answer and is 180 degrees from my own beliefs. "Love is the answer" is a popular conception among Christians and non-Christians alike and certainly has a large degree of truth to it, although the understandings of "love" vary widely. Does love of any sort predominate within Christendom or even any segment of Christendom? Here on this site? Well, not exactly.

This appears to be a statement of faith.
"Do you know anyone who does these things? Do you know anyone who really even attempts to do these things? No, you do not, and I don’t either. They simply state the impossible."

It's not really a statement of faith. It's an observation based on 68 years of experience. A life in which the individual truly tried to live out the best of Jesus' teachings would look far different from any life I have ever observed, including of course my own.

And the answer I would give to such a statement is every believer who desires to follow Christ loves. And I am one, and I know others who attempt to love, and experience Christs love flowing from them. The problem with such statements for me to believe something different seems to be exercising cognitive dissonance when I would suggest something else.

Wife-beating, child-molesting heathens genuinely love some people and things. Most of us do better than wife-beating, child-molesting heathens, but we are likewise selective in our love. And, of course, sincere believers of other religions give every indication of "Chirst-like" love and compassion that matches that of even the best Christians.

I suggest something deeper. Our emotions and experience define our language and how we perceive the world around us. We spend our lives only feeling our own emotions and our emotions projected on to other people. The better we are at this empathetic projections the more likely we will get it right, but for the whole of our lives, it is still just our projection. So I would suggest this subjectivity clouds everything we do.

I have stated on several threads that I believe any individual's beliefs are - indeed, have to be - a product of that individual's experiences, observations, studies and intuition (the term "intuition" encompassing "revelation" for those who believe, as Christians do, that the divine reveals itself to at least some extent). I do not see how it can be otherwise. A belief system that was not predicated on my experiences, observations, studies and intuition would be the ultimate in cognitive dissonance. This is why I flatly refuse to adopt "truths" that are at odds with my own experiences, observations, studies and intuition, regardless of the supposed authority of those who teach these "truths."

Now Jesus says something very profound. A pure heart will see God. matt 5:8 So the complexity, the barriers, the struggles, the cloud, the disconnects, the empty rooms, the loneliness, the hurt, the rejections are down to our own hearts and impurity. He is declaring sort this out, and life will change,
the Kingdom will come, heaven will be born within.

So rather than Jesus has only said a little of the greater reality, He has actually declared everything.
I would propose to reach spiritual maturity is to bridge the gap between the heart and how we behave, because
love dwells in there, living, breathing and in Christ. It is why Christ is not intellectual, rather emotional, and can talk
to all at any level. And it is our intellects that often work so hard to justify our behaviour when all we need to do is
humble ourselves and repent.

As commonly understood (i.e., as set forth in the various Statements of Faith), Christianity is at its core one huge disconnect - as clear an example of cognitive dissonance as one could hope to find. It is completely disconnected from what you describe Jesus' message as being. So long as one tries to occupy this house of cards and live out Jesus' message at the same time, one is going to be in a state of cognitive dissonance.

Saying that a pure heart will see God is again to state an impossibility. There are no pure hearts. Although born-again Christians claim to be uniquely indwelt by the Holy Spirit, does the Christian community strike you as any more pure or loving than any other community of well-meaning individuals? Yet within even the heart of a wife-beating, child-molesting heathen there are sparks of purity, love, compassion and kindness. Often these sparks fail to burst into flame due to genetics, birth, upbringing, health, culture and other circumstances over which the individual had no control.

I think you are on the right track (while acknowledging that it isn't my role to judge whether or not you are!). It seems to me that you have a clearer recognition of the real issues and are closer to the answers than most participants at forums such as this. (I am not suggesting the participants at sites such as this are not sincere, only that they are trapped in the houses of cards they have constructed. No one who was not trapped in a house of cards could spend long at a supposedly Christian site such as this and not conclude "Something is very, very, very wrong here. This has nothing to do with anything Jesus was talking about.") I believe the answers can be found within a strictly Jesus-centered framework, but not until one recognizes that Christianity is just one more Highway to Cognitive Dissonance.

 

[WIP]

Please remember this is the Theology forum so opinions or views need to include Scripture references to explain why we believe as we do.

 

[Runner]

Can you bold/underline the Scripture you have presented that indicates any cognition of there being any of “His servants” placed on the left where they are sent to the place prepared for The Devil and his angels?

And then get back to the OP Scriptures’ cognition:

Since the cogition of Jesus in Matt 7:23 communicates plainly that those not entering the Kingdom of Heaven have never been known by Him (yet they say they have known Him and have done miracles in His name), is it cognitive dissonance for someone on this site to then say there will be some who do not enter Heaven who have been known by Jesus for a while?

No matter what a thread is actually about, it's a OSAS vs. OSNAS thread. Talk about cognitive dissonance! I never stoop to emojis, but in this instance I feel led by the spirit:

 

[JLB]

All varieties of Christian theology produce cognitive dissonance. This is true even at the highest levels of Christian theology and apologetics. Trying to make logical sense of the Bible or even of Jesus’ teachings is a trap, guaranteed to produce cognitive dissonance.

The vast majority of sincere Christians manage to exist in this state of cognitive dissonance. Some of them exist in an almost comical state of cognitive dissonance, others in a more sophisticated one. Non-believers can see this (although they are not as perceptive about that states of cognitive dissonance in which most of them exist as well.)

I strongly suspect that most Christians do not believe a great deal of what they pretend to believe. At some deep, intuitive level, they know the “truths” they spout are not ontologically true. Pretending to believe things one does not really believe is required if one is going to function in a state of cognitive dissonance. This is as true of New Atheists as sincere Christians.

Many spiritual disciplines, notably Zen but many others as well, are based on the premise that true understanding can occur only when one awakens from the state of cognitive dissonance in which most people exist. True understanding occurs when one awakens, and true spirituality occurs when one realizes that the divine cannot be grasped through logic and analysis. “Christianity” of the sort we see at sites such as this, with their tidy little Statements of Faith, is as disconnected from true spirituality as it could possibly be.

You recognize the problem, but then you conclude that the answer is to “Just listen to Jesus and walk in His ways.” What does this mean? The Jesus of the gospels is a complex, somewhat inconsistent and not entirely nice or pleasant character.

Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Sell all that you have and give to the poor and come follow me.

Do you know anyone who does these things? Do you know anyone who really even attempts to do these things? No, you do not, and I don’t either. They simply state the impossible. Jesus may as well have said, “Fly off the top of tall buildings and drop gospel tracts on the people below.”

Do you seriously think Jesus thought his followers would do these things? I don’t believe he did – but if he did, 2,000 years of evidence show he was clearly wrong.

The similarity of many of Jesus’ statements to the teachings of Zen has often been noted. I believe that Jesus, like a Zen master, intended to produce a state of cognitive dissonance in his listeners. As they wrestled with his impossible teachings, like a Zen student with a koan that has no logical answer, they might eventually awaken to what he was actually saying. He certainly did not intend that his teachings would blossom into a goofy, cognitively dissonant, divisive, spirit-killing “system” calling itself Christianity.

I think the real answer lies beyond listening to Jesus and walking in his ways, if by this you mean following or trying to follow some sort of path based on Jesus’ words. I am not going to attempt to put into words what I believe the answer is. For one thing, the answer cannot be put into words: The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. For another, it is an answer that is meaningful only if one discovers it for oneself. “Solving” a Zen koan is a matter of demonstrating one’s awakening, not of providing a “correct” answer to the master.

I would say that the answer is still “recognizably Christian,” but probably not in a way that 99.9% of the participants on this forum would recognize as Christian according to their definitions. If I were to venture a one-word clue, it would be “acceptance.”

Your original post, recognizing the cognitive dissonance that exists within Christianity (and all other belief and non-belief systems of which I am aware), places you far ahead of the pack. Most participants here will have no understanding of what you are trying to say, or even any interest in it. They are too busy trying to prop up and defend the cognitively dissonant houses of cards in which they live. You will notice, if you have not already, that those who think in deeper terms do not last long on this forum or others like it. They move on, because there is literally nothing here.

I’m not suggesting my spirituality is more advanced than yours. Perhaps what you mean by listening to Jesus and walking in his ways is the same thing I mean by “finding the answer.” If not, I would simply encourage you to keep asking, “What does it mean to arrive at a spirituality that does not require me to exist in a state of cognitive dissonance at all?”

And He Himself gave some to beapostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Ephesians 4:11-14

To the degree that a person has not matured, developed, grown up and been transformed into the measure and stature of Christ, to that degree deception remains dominant within their soul.

Paul said that he labored in travail until Christ was formed within them.

The Amplified says it this way.

My little children, for whom I am again in [the pains of] labor until Christ is [completely and permanently] formed within you—
Galatians 4:19

I personally believe through my studies and time spent with the Lord, that the
un-renewed mind can not grasp the truths of scripture.

So, to the degree my mind has not been renewed, to that degree my understanding of God’s word is darkened.

Then there is understanding that the uncrucified Christian life is one that can not walk in the truths that Jesus taught.

Just my two cents.



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Can you bold/underline the Scripture you have presented that indicates any cognition of there being any of “His servants” placed on the left where they are sent to the place prepared for The Devil and his angels?

And then get back to the OP Scriptures’ cognition:

Since the cogition of Jesus in Matt 7:23 communicates plainly that those not entering the Kingdom of Heaven have never been known by Him (yet they say they have known Him and have done miracles in His name), is it cognitive dissonance for someone on this site to then say there will be some who do not enter Heaven who have been known by Jesus for a while?

This is an interesting proposition.
We are the ones who claim whether we are following Christ or not.
A big hand does not come out of the sky and say, I have chosen this guy, and this one etc.
So out of all who claim to know Christ, Jesus is saying some will truly know Him while others not.

Jesus appears to be pointing this out. The believers who claim to know Him, are declaring it by
calling Him Lord, and then justifying their position through their spiritual authority in the world.

In this arena is it quite possible that those who started to walk in the things of God fell away, as
described by the apostles, and Jesus is the parables, or get lazy and abusive.

The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?
It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns.
I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk.
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Luke 12:42-48

 

[Runner]

I am certainly "guilty" (if that's the word) of not supporting my views with scripture. I post here so seldom that I had forgotten the rules, and frankly I didn't even notice that this thread was in the theology sub-forum. I see that the rules simply require that "Original posts should reference specific scripture" and "If you believe that someone is in error you must respectfully cite scripture to support your assertion." Since I am not in violent disagreement with anything Peterjens wrote and saw myself as building upon what he had written, perhaps I am not culpably "guilty."

Anyway, there are a variety of approaches to Christian theology that draw from a variety of sources. Perhaps the focus of this forum is really intended to be systematic theology and this should be spelled out in the forum rules. Perhaps a post about the different approaches to theology would be useful. Some of the major writings of one of the greatest Christian theologians of the twentieth century, Paul Tillich, would not qualify as theology if "citing scripture" were an essential element.

Christian belief does not begin with the Bible. It begins with a belief that there exists a creative divine intelligence. This foundation may ripen into a belief that this creative divine intelligence is the God of Christianity and that the Bible is his message to mankind. But certainly theology does not inevitably involve the Bible at all, and even Christian theology is not limited to the Bible as its only source.

Jesus appears to be pointing this out. The believers who claim to know Him, are declaring it by calling Him Lord, and then justifying their position through their spiritual authority in the world.

Did those who never knew him falsely prophesy in his name, perform bogus miracles in his name, only pretend to cast out demons in his name? Do the verses not suggest that they were sincerely perplexed to learn that they had not been genuine followers?

How about Luke 9:49-50 (NASB)?

John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."​

Hmmm. Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

I do think that what it means to be a "follower of Christ" is the central mystery, the answer to which is the key to unlocking all the other mysteries and leading a spiritual life. I think it means something different and larger than what most Christians think it means. I think Jesus was pointing the way. There is an old Buddhist adage, "Do not mistake the finger pointing at the Moon for the Moon itself."

 

[JLB]

Can you bold/underline the Scripture you have presented that indicates any cognition of there being any of “His servants” placed on the left where they are sent to the place prepared for The Devil and his angels?

And then get back to the OP Scriptures’ cognition:

Since the cogition of Jesus in Matt 7:23 communicates plainly that those not entering the Kingdom of Heaven have never been known by Him (yet they say they have known Him and have done miracles in His name), is it cognitive dissonance for someone on this site to then say there will be some who do not enter Heaven who have been known by Jesus for a while?

Conflating Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:41 is a great example of CD.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Conflating Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:41 is a great example of CD.


JLB

I agree. I asked a question about Matt 7:23 from the OP. You didn’t answer my question then posted Matt 25. Good example.

 

[JLB]

I agree. I asked a question about Matt 7:23 from the OP. You didn’t answer my question then posted Matt 25. Good example.

Yes here is my original post.

Since we don’t have any scripture of Jesus saying ‘I knew you for a while but then you committed to much sin for me to accept you’, we just don’t know what all He will say to each of us.

What we do know for sure, because we have scripture, is He will put His servants into one of two groups, and say these words.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

Or He will say -

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


As you can see from this post, I’m not mentioning or associating Matthew 7:23 with Matthew 25:41


JLB