Coming in this END-TIME

[ourfamily1]

Coming in this END-TIME

Isaiah 29:9. Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. 10. For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 11. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12. And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. 13. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14. Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Daniel 12:8. And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9. And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Isaiah 64:3. When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence. 4. For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Revelation 5:1. And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3. And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 10:8. And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Matthew 10:26. ... for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Isaiah 29:18. And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. 19. The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. 20. For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

"Eyes have not seen, nor ears heard; neither has it entered the heart of men what God has prepared for them that trust Him". ONLY IN THE END of time these things are being revealed by the Father. Telling me what was revealed in Paul's day (2000 years ago) is not relevant. But stay tuned!

Isaiah 50:4. The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5. The Lord God hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.

Isaiah 42:16. And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths (scriptures-precepts) that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

Psalm 119:103. How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104. Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. (a Word-path)

Psalm 91:14. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. 15. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. 16. With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Jeremiah 23:28. The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord. 29. Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

So stand by, folks, there is more to come that will amaze your human mind! And it will be:

Isaiah 28:9. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11. For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Look for an “all scripture†Word-path that will amaze your earthly mind in this END TIME!

John,
ourfamily1 :wink: :P :D :

 

[lecoop]

"All Scripture" word path?

Matthew 27
5 ...and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Luke 10
37 ... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

John 13
27 ...Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

1 Thessalonians 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Indeed, these are all scriptures. They are all part of the word of God. They even seem to fit together in a path. If someone was in deep depression, and someone gave these scriptures to them, in this order, they would seem to give direction! But the fact is, no scripture is of any private interpertation, but MUST fit with all the other scripture! With just a limited knowledge of God's word, one would know that these scriptures were not meant by God to be put together in such a "path."

I said all that to say this: were the scriptures in the above post meant to be put together in such a "path?" I seriously doubt it.

lecoop

 

[ourfamily1]

Stay tuned, Lecoop! Doubting Thomas had an attitude just like yours. So what?!

John,
ourfamily1 :wink: :P :D :

 

[lecoop]

Stay tuned, Lecoop! Doubting Thomas had an attitude just like yours. So what?!

John,
ourfamily1 :wink: :P :D :

We shall see.

coop

 

[lecoop]

ourfamily1 posted these two verses:

Revelation 5:1. And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3. And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 10:8. And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


The book with the seven seals. John was shown this book, in a vision, in about 95 AD. He saw all seven of the seals broken. The more important question is this: when was the first seal broken? We don't have to wonder, because John tells us. Not straight out, giving us a year, but still, he tells us. JOhn was priviledged to see into the throne room of heaven, just before Jesus ascended to heaven - and then to see Jesus when He arrived. Jesus went immediately to get the book, and start breaking the seals. Therefore, the time frame of the first few seals, was about 33 AD.

What about Rev 10:8? What timing can we give this verse? Revelation 9 shows us the first six trumpets being sounded. They will be sounded during the first half of the 70th week, still future to us. So we see that these to verses certainly do NOT make a sensible path. They are thousands of years apart.

 

[ourfamily1]

There is only ONE DAY....

that never ends with my Father. Your concept of "time" on earth does not apply for spiritual matters! Everything is TODAY with God! Nothing is "impossible with God" or "too hard for God to do"! When God said to Daniel all is "sealed until the end" when He will reveal everything to and by John, you better believe it!

John,
ourfamily1 :wink: :P :D :

 

[lecoop]

Re: There is only ONE DAY....

that never ends with my Father. Your concept of "time" on earth does not apply for spiritual matters! Everything is TODAY with God! Nothing is "impossible with God" or "too hard for God to do"! When God said to Daniel all is "sealed until the end" when He will reveal everything to and by John, you better believe it!

John,
ourfamily1 :wink: :P :D :

That doesn't even sound good in theory. God created time, and knows all there is to know about it. He "sees" all time as "now." But on the other hand, He mentions time over and over in the Word of God. For example, Daniel's 70th week came straight from heaven, via Gabriel. It will be a week of years, or seven years, divided in the middle by the abomination; leaving 1260 days or 42 months (one half of the seven years) on either side. Read it and believe!

Coop

 

[harv]

Re: There is only ONE DAY....

that never ends with my Father. Your concept of "time" on earth does not apply for spiritual matters! Everything is TODAY with God! Nothing is "impossible with God" or "too hard for God to do"! When God said to Daniel all is "sealed until the end" when He will reveal everything to and by John, you better believe it!

John,
ourfamily1 :wink: :P :D :

That doesn't even sound good in theory. God created time, and knows all there is to know about it. He "sees" all time as "now." But on the other hand, He mentions time over and over in the Word of God. For example, Daniel's 70th week came straight from heaven, via Gabriel. It will be a week of years, or seven years, divided in the middle by the abomination; leaving 1260 days or 42 months (one half of the seven years) on either side. Read it and believe!

Coop

Gabriel, the messenger of God to Daniel, has set forward an outline for an unbroken chain of events and times in chapter 9. This outline for sequence was projected by God's own intentions that the readers, at the proper point of time, might look forward, with firm intelligent reasoning processes of the mind, toward His Personal Visitation to the nation, Israel, as The Messiah of the prophets.

Jesus was Himself the complete answer of fulfillment for the whole of this Messianic prophecy presented in chapter nine. The introduction of this prophecy was intended both as an encouragement and a warning to all the nation. If, as a nation they should accept Jesus as "sent from God, and turn from their rejections of His counsels, they might remain as a "Nation to God's However; the implication of the prophecy was also that should they reject Jesus as the "sent" Messiah, they would no longer be considered a "nation to God."

The nation as a whole did not accept Jesus as their Messiah. Their rejection was demonstrated in their continued practice of "sacrifice and oblations" after Jesus being "cut off... in the Midst of the 70th week." After this point in time this continuance was now an unacceptable ritual practice, "an abomination."
Hence Gabriel's words: "And He (Messiah) shall Confirm (His) covenant with many for one week (the 70th): and in the Midst Of the (70th) week He (Messiah) shall cause (as per His own Sacrifice) the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading (continuation) of Abomination He (Messiah) make it (the place of the ritual practices)desolate, even to the Consummation (Temple destroyed), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Jerusalem and Temple destroyed, 70AD)."

Traditional Interpretative views which forward the "70th week"to the close of all history foolishly makes an extreme break with both Godly and human intelligence relative to His Person projection and fulfillment intended for proving the very reality of His "Messiah." Since the close of the 70th week of years the Jewish nation, known as "Israel" may continue as one of the many religions of the world; But God has ceased to respect them as "offspring" in the "spirit of Abraham." They are as the branches "cut off" the olive trunk, which may only be, as per any individual, graft into the Living Tree, by their personal acceptance repentance to "God's Messiah" of His Prophets.

"Despise not Prophesying. Prove all things. Hold fast that which is Good." Harv

 

[lecoop]

How interesting then, that John wrote in about 95 AD, after the temple was destroyed, and still wrote about the 70th week, tying it to an end time prophecy. He gave us five different verses mentioning the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week, giving them to us as 42 months, 1260 days, and as time, times and the dividing of time. You would think, telling us five different times, and three different ways, that people would get it!

You can believe that there will still be a 70th week in our future, with 7 trumpets in the first half, and 7 vials in the last half. It is written for all to read. After the 70th week: the thousand year reign of Christ. don't even try to explain that he, Satan, has been bound this last 1000 years! You would become the laughing stock of all forums.

Coop

 

[guibox]

Frankly, any theory that puts the 70th week of Daniel thousands of years in the future, completely devoid of the first 69 weeks is a laughing stock.

Daniel 9:24-27 obviously shows the 70th week as a fulfillment in Christ.

When one is interpreting apocalyptic prophecy, one must take into consideration that Daniel was writing to a specific audience (the Jews) and that there must be some contextual relevance to their situation. Daniel 8 rightly points this out. To make one part of the prophecy applicable to the Jews of Daniel's time, then take one aspect and put it in a 21st+ century fulfillment is over stretching the limits of hermeutic and exegesis.

Daniel 9 is a continuation and further explanation of Daniel 8:1-14. It all points to Messianic fulfillment according to the Jubilee years celebrations. (70 weeks of years) to 'anoint the Most Holy' and 'bring the sacrifice and oblation to cease'. 70 weeks of years from the 'commandment to go restore and rebuild Jerusalem' which occurred around the mid 5th century BC.

To take the 70th week so grossly out of it's immediate context is awful.

 

[Vic C.]

Frankly, any theory that puts the 70th week of Daniel thousands of years in the future, completely devoid of the first 69 weeks is a laughing stock.

Daniel 9:24-27 obviously shows the 70th week as a fulfillment in Christ.

Hi Gui, you know there was a time when I criticized those who didn't believe in a future 70th. week; you and I even discussed it.

Now I can't get over how I missed this simple but profound interpretation.

 

[lecoop]

Frankly, any theory that puts the 70th week of Daniel thousands of years in the future, completely devoid of the first 69 weeks is a laughing stock.

Daniel 9:24-27 obviously shows the 70th week as a fulfillment in Christ.

Hi Gui, you know there was a time when I criticized those who didn't believe in a future 70th. week; you and I even discussed it.

Now I can't get over how I missed this simple but profound interpretation.

What if the Catholic church is right on this one, and Revelation was written about 95 AD? What happens to your argument then?

Coop

 

[guibox]

Frankly, any theory that puts the 70th week of Daniel thousands of years in the future, completely devoid of the first 69 weeks is a laughing stock.

Daniel 9:24-27 obviously shows the 70th week as a fulfillment in Christ.

Hi Gui, you know there was a time when I criticized those who didn't believe in a future 70th. week; you and I even discussed it.

Now I can't get over how I missed this simple but profound interpretation.

What if the Catholic church is right on this one, and Revelation was written about 95 AD? What happens to your argument then?

Coop

When Revelation was written was not the point. The current futurist interpretation of the '70th' week is taken from the book of Daniel. You are also assuming that when John speaks of the child in the wilderness for 1260 days that he was speaking in a future time. One valid argument is that John was merely relating the Christ event under the power of Satan through the Roman empire (the dragon). I think that the 'times time and half a time', 3 1/2 years and '1260 days' represent AN anti-Christ's power's 'imperfect reign' (half of 7, the perfect number). This represents the persecuting power of Rome and the Jewish priests and ultimately Satan. All of this has a Christological fulfillment in the time of Christ and John. The 'child in the wilderness' was Jesus and for the first 3 1/2 years of his ministry he was kept. However as Daniel says 'in the middle of the week he was cut off'. Jesus was crucified in 31 A.D. 69 1/2 weeks from the 'decree to restore and build Jerusalem' fits the time frame perfectly. The last week, the message went out to the Gentiles and after Stephen was stoned in 34 A.D, the probation of the Jews to 'anoint and accept the most Holy' that 'was determined upon the people' was closed.

457 A.D (decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem - 34 A.D (Stephen being stoned) is 70 jubilee years (70 weeks of years or 490 years). Thus Daniel's prophecy has a Christological fulfillment.

Though I don't really consider myself to be a preterist, I believe that there is more exegetical and biblical basis to believe this way then most of the futurist interpretations that put the 70th week nearly 3000 years in the future.

The best explanation I have ever found of Daniel 8:1-14, Daniel 9:24-27 and the Christological fulfillment of the 70 weeks can be found in this lengthy and scholarly (but very enlightening) paper by scholar Leo F.Greer here:

http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/LAPart1.html

 

[Vic C.]

Who mentioned Revelation? This belief isn't dictated by the date Revelation was written.

The start of the 70th week is when Jesus started His ministry. This is when He offered up the Kingdom to the Jews.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Three and 1/2 years later, He was crucified.

"...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,"

Three and 1/2 half years after that, the first Apostle was martyred and the Gospel and the Kingdom was then offered up to the Gentiles. Seven years in total was the covenant available to Daniel's people, the Jews, just like Daniel said.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Acts 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Acts 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

We know after that, Cornelius was converted.

 

[Vic C.]

Though I don't really consider myself to be a preterist, I believe that there is more exegetical and biblical basis to believe this way then most of the futurist interpretations that put the 70th week nearly 3000 years in the future.

Hi Gui, we were posting at the same time. :D You don't have to be a preterist; it's possible to believe this and still believe in a future wide scale Tribulation, wrath of God and the coming of Jesus for His ekklesia. All it does is not confine one a particular seven year period in the future.

Radical thinking, heh? 8-)

 

[lecoop]

Who mentioned Revelation? This belief isn't dictated by the date Revelation was written.

The start of the 70th week is when Jesus started His ministry. This is when He offered up the Kingdom to the Jews.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Three and 1/2 years later, He was crucified.

"...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,"

Three and 1/2 half years after that, the first Apostle was martyred and the Gospel and the Kingdom was then offered up to the Gentiles. Seven years in total was the covenant available to Daniel's people, the Jews, just like Daniel said.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Acts 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Acts 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

We know after that, Cornelius was converted.

All this may be true, roughly speaking, but it does not fit with what John wrote, many years after, giving us again, a seven year period some time in the future, of 95 AD. So which of these was JEsus speaking about, in matthew 24? Surely not the seven years of which you speak, 3 1/2 before His death, and 3 1/2 after. No, Jesus was speaking of a time long future to himself. John corroborates what Jesus taught.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Coop, this is where we disagree. I don't read anything about a seven year period in Jesus' Discourse; I only see one defined 3 1/2 year period in Revelation, which I believe, expands somewhat upon Daniel 12.

Paul, though he writes a lot concerning end times, doesn't mention a seven year period at all. Peter wrote a bit about the end, The Day of the Lord and never mentions it either. So what's left? Why do so many theologians and others make such a big deal over this future seven year period, when Biblical proof for it is sketchy at best?

That is why I've shied away from it. Once I realized Daniel 9:25-27 was Messianic, it all changes from there. There is no practical reason why I should convince myself otherwise. I'm not in the habit of convincing myself of something that I don't believe. Sorry. 8-)

 

[lecoop]

Coop, this is where we disagree. I don't read anything about a seven year period in Jesus' Discourse; I only see one defined 3 1/2 year period in Revelation, which I believe, expands somewhat upon Daniel 12.

Paul, though he writes a lot concerning end times, doesn't mention a seven year period at all. Peter wrote a bit about the end, The Day of the Lord and never mentions it either. So what's left? Why do so many theologians and others make such a big deal over this future seven year period, when Biblical proof for it is sketchy at best?

That is why I've shied away from it. Once I realized Daniel 9:25-27 was Messianic, it all changes from there. There is no practical reason why I should convince myself otherwise. I'm not in the habit of convincing myself of something that I don't believe. Sorry. 8-)

Vic, this is where one has to read closely. No, of course Jesus does not speak of seven years - or does He? He definitely speaks of the abomination, as did Daniel.

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

Daniel speaks of this again:

12: 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Jesus quotes Daniel:

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Now, when did Daniel say this abomination would take place? 9:27 says it will occur in the middle of the week. So Daniel speaks of a period of 7, meaning seven years. We see proof that this is speaking of 7 years, here:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

And here:

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So twice Daniel speaks of a period of 3 1/2 years. This is the time after the abomination event. Jesus did not mention either a period of 7, or 3 1/2, except to make mention of the abomination spoken of by Daniel - so He hinted at same time Daniel spoke of.

Between Daniel and Jesus, Antiochus Epiphanes committed a terrible abomination, giving us a hint of what both Daniel and Jesus spoke of. It was a desocration of the Holy Place, and at the same time, death and worse to any that attempted to follow the laws of God. That was the desolation part.

In summary, Daniel wrote of a period of seven years, divided in the middle by a terrible event: an event that Jesus called the abomination of desolation. Since Jesus spoke of this event long past Antiochus' time, we know that he was not the final fulfillment of this prophecy. Now we enter John.

John wrote of a period of 3 1/2 years, right in line with Daniel:

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

There can be no doubt that John is prophecying the same event as Daniel. Therefore, neither the 7 years nor the 3 1/2 years (one half of the seven) could have been fulfilled at the time of Christ. Jesus ties this prophecy of the abomination into an end time prophecy.

John goes on to give us this same period of time, 3 1/2 years, four more times! In each case, it is in reference to the second half of a seven year period - the very same 42 months given the beast of chapter 13.

Here is one in direct reference to those in judea fleeing because they saw the abomination spoken of by Jesus. No, John did not see the abomination, for he was seeing things in heaven: but here we see that it has occured:

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Why should the woman be feed for 1260 days? Why could she not feed herself? Because of the beast:

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

John goes on to write again of the woman fleeing:

REv 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

We must ask ourselves, why is the woman fleeing? She is fleeing bacause she has seen the abomination event - which again, by Daniel, will occur at the midpoint of the 7 years. It is not difficult to see a seven year period here, when we put all the scriptures together. Daniel wrote of it first, and wrote that the last 3 1/2 years would be the worst time ever:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Jesus again confirms what Daniel wrote:

Matt 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If this time of great tribulation starts at the abomination event, which it does, and goes for 3 1/2 years, it is easy to see that all of John's mentions of the 3 1/2 years are the second half of the 7 years, as are the two mentions of it by Daniel.

Where then is the first 3 1/2 years? We see that in the last verses of Daniel 11, and we see them in Revelation in chapters 8 through 11. However, little mention is given of the first 3 1/2 years, because not much of significance will happen during that time. The temple will be completed, and the Jews will start the daily sacrifices again.

Therefore, since we see such a parallel between Daniel and Revelation, it does make a difference when John wrote it. Why? Many think it refers to Titus. It does not.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Hey coop, believe me, I know where you're coming from. Remember me, a believer in the seven year preWrath position? You think it was easy for me to let go of the future seven year belief? No,it wasn't at all. But when I was continually forced to find literal evidence of a future seven years, it just wasn't there for me. I'm not alone; I'm finding many who feel this way too. A whole slew of Reformers and others like ECFs, Newton, Wesley and Clarke can't be wrong, can they?

It looks like Guibox may have some thoughts on Rev 12, so I will let him speak on that. I have been working on something for the past hour or so. I will run with that and let the pieces fall where they may. :

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There are other passages which suggest Daniel 9:27 is about Messiah; this is one of them:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The first part in bold goes with this:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

The second part in bold goes with this:

Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

and this:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

There we have the writer of Hebrews almost quoting Jeremiah verbatim.

We need to note the actual confirming of the covenant offered at the beginning of the week came 3 1/2 years after He began His ministry, at the Cross. "in the midst of the week..."

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week...

There's a catch translating from Hebrew to English; there is no preposition in the Hebrew, so there is no "for". It was added, supposedly for clarity? But we know the Septuagint handles the translation from Hebrew to Greek better. Here is the Greek rendering in it's English equivalent:

"And one week shall establish the covenant with many; and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drinkoffering shall be taken away; and upon the temple shall be the abomination of desolation; and at the end of the time (the age) an end shall be put to the desolation."

So now the meaning becomes clearer; within the final week the new covenant would be realized. Now the passage becomes Christocentric, as it should be. We are now centered on the work done at the Cross!

It is because of interpretations like this that we know Jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years.

When all this is taken into consideration, it presents a problem for most of the popular end times positions. No longer is there a future 70th. week; no longer can we look to the future for some sort of special peace treaty to be signed by some yet unknown antichrist and no longer can we looked to be whisked away at the first sign of danger.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

 

[guibox]

This scholarly paper details the links of Daniel chapters 7-9 and how they are a fulifllment of Christ according to covenant theology spoken of in Leviticus.

It is a comprehensive and comparative work that blew my mind and cleared up the confusion of so many conflicting interpretations of Daniel 7-9. When you understand covenant theology, you can't help but see Christ in ALL the prophecies and how, without any doubt, Daniel 8 and 9 in particular have a Christological fulfillment.

I encourage you to download it and read it at your leisure.

http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/LAPart1.html
A little over halfway down the article is a section entitled "The Jubilee Day of Atonement
and the fine structure of the 70 sabbatical 'weeks of years' of Daniel 9:23-27"

It shows a side by side comparison of the Jubilee Day of Atonement spoken of in Leviticus chapters 16, 25 and 26 and the prayer of Daniel 9 leading up to and including verses 24-27.

Here are a few quotes:

Both Daniel 8 and 9 refer to the SAME Messianic and eschatological events, culminating within the 70th sabbatical ‘week.’ Daniel 8-9 from a Covenant framework ties together both Messiah and the eschaton, both fulfillment and consummation. The book of Revelation (11-14) cites the Danielic Covenant framework likewise linking the Christ event and the consumation. To extract the events of Daniel 8-9 from their Covenant sabbatical time context in Daniel 9 and reapply them to some other time or event, so as to obscure their original context and meaning, is to lose the central meaning of the vision (whether this is done by preterists, historicists, or futurist-dispensationalists).

So in this sabbatical Covenantal context of Daniel 8-9, 'the vindication of the sanctuary' does include a Righteous reversal by God of all that evil has done. This is exactly what is brought to light in the Covenant, Jubilee Day of Atonement explanation of the vision in Daniel 9:24-27. All the items in 9:24-27 were decreed for accomplishment within the 70 'weeks of years' – both the vindication of right and establishment of eternal righteousness, the fulfillment and sealing up of prophecy, and also atonement for sin and iniquity, and the end of sin, evil, and the evil one.
Daniel 8:14 is explained in Daniel 9:24, 27 and was to be fully accomplished within the 70 sabbatical 'weeks' of years.