Coming in this END-TIME

[lecoop]

Hey coop, believe me, I know where you're coming from. Remember me, a believer in the seven year preWrath position? You think it was easy for me to let go of the future seven year belief? No,it wasn't at all. But when I was continually forced to find literal evidence of a future seven years, it just wasn't there for me. I'm not alone; I'm finding many who feel this way too. A whole slew of Reformers and others like ECFs, Newton, Wesley and Clarke can't be wrong, can they?

It looks like Guibox may have some thoughts on Rev 12, so I will let him speak on that. I have been working on something for the past hour or so. I will run with that and let the pieces fall where they may. :

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There are other passages which suggest Daniel 9:27 is about Messiah; this is one of them:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The first part in bold goes with this:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

The second part in bold goes with this:

Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

and this:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

There we have the writer of Hebrews almost quoting Jeremiah verbatim.

We need to note the actual confirming of the covenant offered at the beginning of the week came 3 1/2 years after He began His ministry, at the Cross. "in the midst of the week..."

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week...

There's a catch translating from Hebrew to English; there is no preposition in the Hebrew, so there is no "for". It was added, supposedly for clarity? But we know the Septuagint handles the translation from Hebrew to Greek better. Here is the Greek rendering in it's English equivalent:

"And one week shall establish the covenant with many; and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drinkoffering shall be taken away; and upon the temple shall be the abomination of desolation; and at the end of the time (the age) an end shall be put to the desolation."

So now the meaning becomes clearer; within the final week the new covenant would be realized. Now the passage becomes Christocentric, as it should be. We are now centered on the work done at the Cross!

It is because of interpretations like this that we know Jesus' ministry lasted 3 1/2 years.

When all this is taken into consideration, it presents a problem for most of the popular end times positions. No longer is there a future 70th. week; no longer can we look to the future for some sort of special peace treaty to be signed by some yet unknown antichrist and no longer can we looked to be whisked away at the first sign of danger.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

This is all good, and scripture is scripture - in whatever book we use. Hmmm. Revelation is scripture also! What then, will you do with John's 3 1/2 years, and 42 months, and 1260 days? They most certainly cannot be about Jesus' first coming. What will you do with the scriptures in Revelation that are so close to what Daniel wrote: about someone given authority over the saints for 3 1/2 years? Certainly these verses are not about the new covenant written in blood.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

guibox quoting someone else:

Both Daniel 8 and 9 refer to the SAME Messianic and eschatological events, culminating within the 70th sabbatical ‘week.’ Daniel 8-9 from a Covenant framework ties together both Messiah and the eschaton, both fulfillment and consummation. The book of Revelation (11-14) cites the Danielic Covenant framework likewise linking the Christ event and the consumation. To extract the events of Daniel 8-9 from their Covenant sabbatical time context in Daniel 9 and reapply them to some other time or event, so as to obscure their original context and meaning, is to lose the central meaning of the vision (whether this is done by preterists, historicists, or futurist-dispensationalists).

(Emphasis added)

He is quite bold to say that he has come up with the original and intended meaning! I, along with so many futurists, will say he is wrong. guibox, can you give any explanation as to why John would have written about events in the past (if indeed as he says, that was what John was writing about) as if they were future? For example, where are the two witnesses? Where is the proof that Satan is cast down? (Paul said he is still accusing us before God.) Where is the historical proof of the 7 trumpet judgements, and the 7 vials of His wrath? The answer is very simple: these things are in our future.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

... This is all good, and scripture is scripture - in whatever book we use. Hmmm. Revelation is scripture also! What then, will you do with John's 3 1/2 years, and 42 months, and 1260 days? They most certainly cannot be about Jesus' first coming. What will you do with the scriptures in Revelation that are so close to what Daniel wrote: about someone given authority over the saints for 3 1/2 years? Certainly these verses are not about the new covenant written in blood.

Coop

Heh! I never once mentioned Revelation in my post above. I've been posting what I believe to be Biblical proof that Daniel's final week is history to us; it's outside the time frame of typical End times positions. Nothing more or less at this time.

Will there be a time of great tribulation against God's people? Yes, I believe so.
Will there be a time of apostasy? Yes, I see it happening... as we speak. 8-)
Will there be a time when evil is finally revealed for what it is? Yes.
Will there be a time when God avenges the deaths of all the martyrs throughout the ages? Yes!
Will Jesus return to gather those given to Him and restore His Kingdom on earth and reign over it? Absolutely Yes!

Do I have to believe in a specific end times theory to believe these things have either passed or will come to pass? No, there's no scriptural evidence for that and none suggesting this is a salvific issue.

8-)

 

[lecoop]

... This is all good, and scripture is scripture - in whatever book we use. Hmmm. Revelation is scripture also! What then, will you do with John's 3 1/2 years, and 42 months, and 1260 days? They most certainly cannot be about Jesus' first coming. What will you do with the scriptures in Revelation that are so close to what Daniel wrote: about someone given authority over the saints for 3 1/2 years? Certainly these verses are not about the new covenant written in blood.

Coop

Heh! I never once mentioned Revelation in my post above. I've been posting what I believe to be Biblical proof that Daniel's final week is history to us; it's outside the time frame of typical End times positions. Nothing more or less at this time.

Will there be a time of great tribulation against God's people? Yes, I believe so.
Will there be a time of apostasy? Yes, I see it happening... as we speak. 8-)
Will there be a time when evil is finally revealed for what it is? Yes.
Will there be a time when God avenges the deaths of all the martyrs throughout the ages? Yes!
Will Jesus return to gather those given to Him and restore His Kingdom on earth and reign over it? Absolutely Yes!

Do I have to believe in a specific end times theory to believe these things have either passed or will come to pass? No, there's no scriptural evidence for that and none suggesting this is a salvific issue.

8-)

Of course, you are I are in agreement here: it is not an issue relating to our being born again. However, I do hope all of us are: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ!" He is coming back, no matter what we believe.

Vic, my only point is that we cannot ignore one scripture (Revelation) in exegeting another. As it is written, "no scripture is of any private interpretation," but every verse must fit with every other verse on a given subject. I simply cannot ignore the verses in Revelation while trying to put meaning on verses in Daniel. There are too many similarities. There can be little doubt that they are both writing of the same events. John, however, was writing some 60 years after Jesus died and was resurrected.

I can agree with you that Daniel chapter nine, the 70 weeks, is indeed about the Messiah; his coming, death, and resurrection. However, like many other scriptures, is that the final fulfillment of verse 27, or is there yet a future fulfillment, as written by John?

Coop

 

[guibox]

Coop, why can't you accept the fact that the 1260 days doesn't have to be a literal time period? Did it ever occur to you that this number is simply symbolic of an 'imperfect reign' (1/2 of '7' the biblical perfect number is '3 1/2''?

See, futurists see everything being int he future but prophecy is historical and unfolds throughout history (the seven churches is an example).

Did you know that the 'child' in the wilderness can be interpreted as God's true church during the middle ages and that the 'beast' (which the Reformers believed represented Papal Rome) rules for this 'time, times and half a time'?

Have you ever compared the Beast of Revelation 13 with the little horn power of Daniel 7? (Which also fits Papal Rome to a T).

This is a very feasible interpretation. There is no way that you can make '3 1/2' literal years to the Papal Rule.

We see that the little horn's power unfolds throughout history and that the beast of Revelation can also not have simply a short term future fulfillment but even started in John's time as Pagan Rome.

You see, John also had to be writing to an audience where the information was textually relevant. In John's time, his words could be interpreted as the Roman persecuting power. That doesn't mean that there can't be another future application, but to say that John was describing a future literal
3 1/2 years of reign 2000 years in the future where people would be getting computer chips in their forehead is absolute absurdity and ignores contextual exegesis and the relevance of that the early bible readers could relate to in what they read.

 

[lecoop]

Coop, why can't you accept the fact that the 1260 days doesn't have to be a literal time period? Did it ever occur to you that this number is simply symbolic of an 'imperfect reign' (1/2 of '7' the biblical perfect number is '3 1/2''?

See, futurists see everything being int he future but prophecy is historical and unfolds throughout history (the seven churches is an example).

Did you know that the 'child' in the wilderness can be interpreted as God's true church during the middle ages and that the 'beast' (which the Reformers believed represented Papal Rome) rules for this 'time, times and half a time'?

Have you ever compared the Beast of Revelation 13 with the little horn power of Daniel 7? (Which also fits Papal Rome to a T).

This is a very feasible interpretation. There is no way that you can make '3 1/2' literal years to the Papal Rule.

We see that the little horn's power unfolds throughout history and that the beast of Revelation can also not have simply a short term future fulfillment but even started in John's time as Pagan Rome.

You see, John also had to be writing to an audience where the information was textually relevant. In John's time, his words could be interpreted as the Roman persecuting power. That doesn't mean that there can't be another future application, but to say that John was describing a future literal
3 1/2 years of reign 2000 years in the future where people would be getting computer chips in their forehead is absolute absurdity and ignores contextual exegesis and the relevance of that the early bible readers could relate to in what they read.

guibox, if this wasn't so sad, it would be comical.

"the 1260 days doesn't have to be a literal time period"
"simply symbolic"
"prophecy is historical"
"can be interpreted"
"This is a very feasible interpretation"
"could be interpreted"
"ignores contextual exegesis"

This is why I say "comical!"

When anyone declares that prophecy does not have to be literal, then the flood gates open wide for each to come up with his or her own wild ideas of what is meant. Of course some things cannot be taken literal, such as the beast with seven heads and ten horns. On these things, we must say that they are symbolic. However, what is there about 1260 days, that should lead anyone to believe it must be symbolic? It can easily be interpreted as 1260 days.

When the Holy Spirit caused John to write, He had His own interpretation in mind. We should all be striving to come up with the original interpretation. In other words, what was in the mind of the Holy Spirit when He caused John to write 1260 days?

I got a taste of His interpretation. As I was reading Daniel 9:27, the Holy Spirit came to me saying, "You could find that exact midpoint, clearly marked in the book of Revelation." With this first sentence from the Holy Spirit, I knew that there WAS a "midpoint" to be found in Revelation. Midpoint of what? Of course, Daniel was speaking of the 70th week. There would be a midpoint, that would divide the week into two equal parts of 3 1/2 years each: this is what a midpoint does - divide.

It was as if I was a bystander, as my spirit man answered the Holy Spirit: "How would I find that midpoint?"

Again, He spoke to me: "Whenever I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years. When you find the mentions of this time frame, you will be very close to the exact midpoint."

Interesting that He spoke just as if He were the author of the book! In fact, He was: John was only the writer. Now we have other facts that must be present in Revelation: Events that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

Now, stand back and think for a moment: does it seem that the Holy Spirit might know what the original intent was? Does it seem that He thinks there will be a 70th week in the future, written about in Revelation? Does it seem that He knew that the exact midpoint of that week was there, "clearly marked" in the book?

He said events that start at the midpoint, and go to the end of the week: what are these events?

Rev 11:
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Here is the first one: it says that Gentiles will tread the Holy City for 42 months. Do we need to make 42 months symbolic? No, we know exactly what 42 months are: 30 * 42 = 1260 days.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

And the second one, given in days: the two witnesses will testify for exactly 1260 days. Again, no need to even think symbolic here, for we know exactly what a day is.

12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The woman is fed in the wilderness for 1260 days. Jesus told the people, when they see the abomination, flee quickly! Don't hesitate for one second. This is the same 42 months that the Holy City will be trampled. It is the same 1260 days that the two witnesses with testify.

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The woman is feed for 1260 days, which time is 3 1/2 years. This is not dificult: a fifth grader could get this math. However, here we have years given as time, times, and half a time. It is the only place in the New Covenant where years are so written. Interesting that Daniel is the only other place in the bible where we see the same thing:

Dan 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Please note that in verse 27, the millenial kingdom has come. This is therefore, and end time prophecy. Just to be sure, this is the second time Daniel has seen a vision of the end time.

Dan 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

There can be no doubt that this is speaking of an everlasting kingdom - not the time we live in today! This is the kingdom of "the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands," referring to Jesus the Christ. Daniel mentions time in this fashion once more:

Dan 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The big question here is, where does this time period start? We don't have to guess, as Daniel tells us:

12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

So we have again, a time of 3 1/2 years, from the midpoint of a 7 year period,to the end.

There is yet one more - an event that starts at the midpoint, and goes to the end.

Rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.



This verse is so close in meaning to Dan. 7 verses shown above,that we can be sure they are speaking of the same events. There Daniel gave us the time as 3 1/2 years; here it is given as 42 months. This is yet more proof that God was meaning real months and real years.

Guibox, I have a question for you. Since God has given us this same 3 1/2 year period, in two books, and seven diffent time, in three different methods (days, months, and years), why don't you just accept it as written: a period of 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. What is so difficult about leaving it just as John has written it? Daniel wrote that these events would take place just before the final kingdom, the kingdom of our God is set up. Hmmm. This is exactly what John shows us too. There is no need to symbolize these things. There is no need to re-arrange the book. God gave it to us exactly as He wanted it. All we have to do is believe it. Plain and simple.

Coop