Bible Study Conflicting messages for Paul

[cyberjosh]

PLEASE! Never miss Acts 9:15-16!

[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before (1) the Gentiles, and (2) kings, [and] (3) the children of Israel:
[16] For [ I will shew him] how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Thanks for pointing that out Elijah, and I did see you point that out earlier. I mentioned that verse also in my post above. It is also true that Paul was called just as equally to the Jews as he was the Gentiles, "the children of Israel". I noticed that a while back, and is one reason I think Paul may have written the book of Hebrews - but that is another matter.

I see that Rockie and I were typing replies to patience7 about the same time, so we wrote similar things. I think we are are in agreement with you Elijah as well as Childeye who mentioned that there was no difficulty with this account earlier.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Okay.

Does that make sense to you though? Rockie said it much more succintly than I did, but that's what I was trying to say also. Compare the Scripture I gave (from the Gospel of John) about what Jesus said would happen to Peter eventually.

I hope that does make good Scriptural sense. And as I said in my post, it's not about one person or the other being right, its about correctly understanding the Scripture. So it's all meant in love.

In Christ,
~Josh

 

[patience7]

Does that make sense to you though? Rockie said it much more succintly than I did, but that's what I was trying to say also. Compare the Scripture I gave (from the Gospel of John) about what Jesus said would happen to Peter eventually.

I hope that does make good Scriptural sense. And as I said in my post, it's not about one person or the other being right, its about correctly understanding the Scripture. So it's all meant in love.

In Christ,
~Josh

I posted on this thread in response to "Conflicting messages for Paul". So I just responded within the immediate context as it applies to this particular situation.
I stand by my original post (#32).

Compare the Scripture I gave (from the Gospel of John) about what Jesus said would happen to Peter eventually. Within the thread and the context of scripture aren't we discussing Paul?

Paul went to Jerusalem and it happened to him just as prophesied by Agabus. Paul is a man just like we are. Do we follow every word of God or revelation that is given to us? Does it mean that our hearts are hardened if we are stubborn; make a mistake and maybe do something we shouldn't? Paul wouldn't be the first man of God to disobey in a situation. And YES Paul was willing and ready to go through anything in the name of the Lord Jesus - that was Paul's heart.

I have a lack of diligent study and exegesis? - you want me to just disregard what the Spirit spoke to the apostles because "human agency is present" so it isn't infallible? (God did place that scripture there for a reason) That is diligent study and exegesis? Paul was a "human agency" too so maybe, just maybe, he made a mistake by going to Jerusalem.

What did the trip of Jerusalem profit?

I'm not asking anyone to agree with or believe my words and I have repeatedly said "this is my take on it". What I have said doesn't change the scriptures in any way and people can still read for themselves and come to their own conclusion. And if I am the only person that has this view on these particular scriptures regarding Paul and what the Spirit told him concerning his trip to Jerusalem - so be it - I am comfortable.

In Christ
patience7

 

[Jake]

What did the trip of Jerusalem profit?

With all due respect, patience, have you read about what Paul accomplished in his ministry? He was the forerunner of the gospel of Christ! He was the reason for the expansion of Christianity in the Roman Empire. He brought to the Gentiles, the realization that God was offering them salvation, too! It was not only for the Jews, but the Gentiles, too!

His mission was to spread the gospel and suffer while doing it!

Guess what our mission is?

 

[cyberjosh]

Compare the Scripture I gave (from the Gospel of John) about what Jesus said would happen to Peter eventually. Within the thread and the context of scripture aren't we discussing Paul?

Yes, obviously. You brought up the issue of whether God would want Paul to suffer though, thus I supplied proof from another Scripture to prove the concept. Then I showed examples of Paul being called to suffer for God also. How was my intent lost on you? You seemed to understand what Rockie said. Please hang with me as I try to explain my understanding of this.

Paul went to Jerusalem and it happened to him just as prophesied by Agabus.

Yes. It did, and that didn't bother Paul. You can't use Paul's suffering as a ground for saying he was wrong for going though. That's why I referenced other Scriptures.

Paul is a man just like we are.

Yes, he is.

Do we follow every word of God or revelation that is given to us?

Obviously no.

Does it mean that our hearts are hardened if we are stubborn; make a mistake and maybe do something we shouldn't?

It depends on the situation. In this case I would say that Paul's heart would have to be exceedingly stubborn to continue to ignore the Holy Spirit willingly and even to say "it does not move me" (vs. 24).

And YES Paul was willing and ready to go through anything in the name of the Lord Jesus - that was Paul's heart.

Indeed. But how do you explain what is said in Acts 20:22-24. That also was put in Scripture for a reason.

I have a lack of diligent study and exegesis? - you want me to just disregard what the Spirit spoke to the apostles because "human agency is present" so it isn't infallible?

Look, you should know that one verse cannot be taken out of context.

There are three passages that deal with this, and only one seems to imply (if read alone) that the Holy Spirit might have given the order not to go. Whereas if you read the other two they do not imply that at all.

"And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me." (Acts 20:22-23)


"And finding disciples,we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem." (Acts 21:4)


"And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’' (Acts 21:10-11)

The first and last verses show an informative revelation by the Spirit, with no "command" attached. When we read the second one though (Acts 21:4) the 'telling' or 'saying' is being done by the disciples. The phrase "through the Spirit" is admittedly ambiguous: Are we to take it that even their very words were Spirit breathed, or was it the revelation of the Spirit to them of what Paul was to encounter that prompted them to plead with him themselves? My position is the latter, in light of all the other factors that I have considered in the text thus far.

(God did place that scripture there for a reason) That is diligent study and exegesis?

I tried to make clear earlier that my goal is to study the text. No personal accusations are being made. I will consider any text you want to discuss with me.

Paul was a "human agency" too so maybe, just maybe, he made a mistake by going to Jerusalem.

I'm not saying Paul was perfect. He even called himself the chief of sinners in Scripture. However in this specific text I'm not seeing anywhere that Luke was conveying that Paul was disobedient. That is only possible via "extrapolation" IMO.

And also, I brought up previously the question about why the disciples would not have rebuked Paul, like Paul rebuked Peter in Galatains 2 if he were clearly wrong? You can look back for the context of that question.

What did the trip of Jerusalem profit?

I will try to return to this because there is much that could be said in response to this. At the very least did you catch my point that I made in this post about the Jewish offering to be brought to Jerusalem? If you could please read the second to last paragraph, where I also highlighted some text in red, and tell me your thoughts about that point that would be great.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with or believe my words and I have repeatedly said "this is my take on it". What I have said doesn't change the scriptures in any way and people can still read for themselves and come to their own conclusion.

The same can be said for all of us. But I also love discussing biblical exegesis because it causes you to look deeper into the text to draw out the full meaning of it. You points have helped me look deeper myself, so I see it all as part of the studying process. Please continue to study this with me until hopefully we can agree on something. You will find that most of us here on this forum are Bereans and will carefully search out the Scripture with others to discover what is true.


God Bless,
~Josh

 

[Elijah674]

With all due respect, patience, have you read about what Paul accomplished in his ministry? He was the forerunner of the gospel of Christ! He was the reason for the expansion of Christianity in the Roman Empire. He brought to the Gentiles, the realization that God was offering them salvation, too! It was not only for the Jews, but the Gentiles, too!

His mission was to spread the gospel and suffer while doing it!

Guess what our mission is?

Come on now Rockie, you ask that question? Are you trying to sat me up again??;)

You know, the remark of my 3 time vision comment to Peter for an example, which you said was not with this 'Conflicting message for Paul' subject.

--Elijah

 

[Jake]

Come on now Rockie, you ask that question? Are you trying to sat me up again??;)

You know, the remark of my 3 time vision comment to Peter for an example, which you said was not with this 'Conflicting message for Paul' subject.

--Elijah

Haven't you noticed Elijah? My mission on this forum is to set you up. :D

I misunderstood you on the Peter issue.

 

[Elijah674]

Haven't you noticed Elijah? My mission on this forum is to set you up. :D

I misunderstood you on the Peter issue.

:fight

Oh' Goody! Off topic. So let me just ask Josh to tell us how he comes up with Paul writting Hebrews?? (with my added high/lite, which 'i' agree;)) Just one time OK Rockie?:yes

Josh says:
Thanks for pointing that out Elijah, and I did see you point that out earlier. I mentioned that verse also in my post above. It is also true that Paul was called just as equally to the Jews as he was the Gentiles, "the children of Israel". I noticed that a while back, and is one reason I think Paul may have written the book of Hebrews - but that is another matter.

I see that Rockie and I were typing replies to patience7 about the same time, so we wrote similar things. I think we are are in agreement with you Elijah as well as Childeye who mentioned that there was no difficulty with this account earlier.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[patience7]

With all due respect, patience, have you read about what Paul accomplished in his ministry? He was the forerunner of the gospel of Christ! He was the reason for the expansion of Christianity in the Roman Empire. He brought to the Gentiles, the realization that God was offering them salvation, too! It was not only for the Jews, but the Gentiles, too!

His mission was to spread the gospel and suffer while doing it!

Guess what our mission is?

Yep, I am well aware of what Paul's mission was and our mission - to spread the gospel and Paul's mission was to spread the gospel to the Gentiles because the Jews weren't going to receive his testimony concerning Jesus. (Acts 22:18-21)

 

[Elijah674]

Haven't you noticed Elijah? My mission on this forum is to set you up. :D

I misunderstood you on the Peter issue.

Yep, I am well aware of what Paul's mission was and our mission - to spread the gospel and Paul's mission was to spread the gospel to the Gentiles because the Jews weren't going to receive his testimony concerning Jesus. (Acts 22:18-21)



Interesting how we all can agree & also disagree!:yes All of us need to UNDERSTAND our time/frame! (7/13/2011) Old Israel & the Today ones had and have a SPECIAL message from God. See Matt. 10:5-6 with Christ's [FIRST] Command.

And Rockie, see what you started??;)

And the subject was: 'conflicting messages for Paul' And I hear that 'i' am misunderstood all over the place! (just kidding!)

SO: I think that 'i' will just bug off this thread!

--Elijah

 

[patience7]

Yes, obviously. You brought up the issue of whether God would want Paul to suffer though, thus I supplied proof from another Scripture to prove the concept. Then I showed examples of Paul being called to suffer for God also. How was my intent lost on you? You seemed to understand what Rockie said. Please hang with me as I try to explain my understanding of this.

Yes. It did, and that didn't bother Paul. You can't use Paul's suffering as a ground for saying he was wrong for going though. That's why I referenced other Scriptures.

Yes, he is.

Obviously no.

It depends on the situation. In this case I would say that Paul's heart would have to be exceedingly stubborn to continue to ignore the Holy Spirit willingly and even to say "it does not move me" (vs. 24).

Indeed. But how do you explain what is said in Acts 20:22-24. That also was put in Scripture for a reason.

Look, you should know that one verse cannot be taken out of context.

There are three passages that deal with this, and only one seems to imply (if read alone) that the Holy Spirit might have given the order not to go. Whereas if you read the other two they do not imply that at all.

"And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me." (Acts 20:22-23)


"And finding disciples,we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem." (Acts 21:4)


"And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’' (Acts 21:10-11)

The first and last verses show an informative revelation by the Spirit, with no "command" attached. When we read the second one though (Acts 21:4) the 'telling' or 'saying' is being done by the disciples. The phrase "through the Spirit" is admittedly ambiguous: Are we to take it that even their very words were Spirit breathed, or was it the revelation of the Spirit to them of what Paul was to encounter that prompted them to plead with him themselves? My position is the latter, in light of all the other factors that I have considered in the text thus far.

I tried to make clear earlier that my goal is to study the text. No personal accusations are being made. I will consider any text you want to discuss with me.

I'm not saying Paul was perfect. He even called himself the chief of sinners in Scripture. However in this specific text I'm not seeing anywhere that Luke was conveying that Paul was disobedient. That is only possible via "extrapolation" IMO.

And also, I brought up previously the question about why the disciples would not have rebuked Paul, like Paul rebuked Peter in Galatains 2 if he were clearly wrong? You can look back for the context of that question.

I will try to return to this because there is much that could be said in response to this. At the very least did you catch my point that I made in this post about the Jewish offering to be brought to Jerusalem? If you could please read the second to last paragraph, where I also highlighted some text in red, and tell me your thoughts about that point that would be great.

The same can be said for all of us. But I also love discussing biblical exegesis because it causes you to look deeper into the text to draw out the full meaning of it. You points have helped me look deeper myself, so I see it all as part of the studying process. Please continue to study this with me until hopefully we can agree on something. You will find that most of us here on this forum are Bereans and will carefully search out the Scripture with others to discover what is true.

God Bless,
~Josh

My grounds for saying he shouldn't have gone was because the Spirit through the apostles told him not to go and he had been warned by Agabus through the Spirit what would be the result of him going - and he wasn't warned only once.

Acts 20:22 -24

22) And now behold I go bound in the spirit [small "s" - (not the Holy Spirit) - pneuma used as the seat of man's personal life; the issues that result from the operation of man's mind such as acts of will, thoughts, desires, emotions] unto Jerusalem not knowing the things that shall befall me there: (which corresponds with Acts 19:21 After these things were ended Paul purposed in the spirit. . .to go to Jerusalem) (Also how could he not know the things that were going to befall him when you read the next verse?)

23) Save [besides, except, but] that the Holy Spirit witnesseth [attest, testify to, solemnly affirm] in every city saying that bonds and afflictions abide [wait for, await one] me.

24) But none of these things [logos-words] move me. . . . .

So in every city the Holy Spirit witnessed that bonds and afflictions were waiting for him (20:23) which corresponds with what the Spirit told Agabus (21:11). Then we have the apostles through the Spirit telling him not to go (21:4).
But it was Paul's own determination wherein he would not be persuaded. (Acts 21:14)

In Christ,
patience


[Brackets - definitions from blueletterbible.org/tools (Strong's Concordance)]

 

[Jake]

Yep, I am well aware of what Paul's mission was and our mission - to spread the gospel and Paul's mission was to spread the gospel to the Gentiles because the Jews weren't going to receive his testimony concerning Jesus. (Acts 22:18-21)

Then why did you ask, "what did it profit?"
It profited a whole bunch!

 

[Jake]

Yep, I am well aware of what Paul's mission was and our mission - to spread the gospel and Paul's mission was to spread the gospel to the Gentiles because the Jews weren't going to receive his testimony concerning Jesus. (Acts 22:18-21)



Interesting how we all can agree & also disagree!:yes All of us need to UNDERSTAND our time/frame! (7/13/2011) Old Israel & the Today ones had and have a SPECIAL message from God. See Matt. 10:5-6 with Christ's [FIRST] Command.

And Rockie, see what you started??;)

And the subject was: 'conflicting messages for Paul' And I hear that 'i' am misunderstood all over the place! (just kidding!)

SO: I think that 'i' will just bug off this thread!

--Elijah

We're all misunderstood all over the place Elijah. I thought you were talking about the OT Law.
I don't care if you ask Josh an off-topic question, I honesty don't. You don't have to leave the thread either, all is good!

 

[cyberjosh]

My grounds for saying he shouldn't have gone was because the Spirit through the apostles told him not to go and he had been warned by Agabus through the Spirit what would be the result of him going - and he wasn't warned only once.

Acts 20:22 -24

22) And now behold I go bound in the spirit [small "s" - (not the Holy Spirit) - pneuma used as the seat of man's personal life; the issues that result from the operation of man's mind such as acts of will, thoughts, desires, emotions] unto Jerusalem not knowing the things that shall befall me there: (which corresponds with Acts 19:21 After these things were ended Paul purposed in the spirit. . .to go to Jerusalem) (Also how could he not know the things that were going to befall him when you read the next verse?)

23) Save [besides, except, but] that the Holy Spirit witnesseth [attest, testify to, solemnly affirm] in every city saying that bonds and afflictions abide [wait for, await one] me.

24) But none of these things [logos-words] move me. . . . .

So in every city the Holy Spirit witnessed that bonds and afflictions were waiting for him (20:23) which corresponds with what the Spirit told Agabus (21:11). Then we have the apostles through the Spirit telling him not to go (21:4).
But it was Paul's own determination wherein he would not be persuaded. (Acts 21:14)

In Christ,
patience

If all you say is true then it would only prove that Paul had a very hard heart and incessantly stopped up his ears to the Spirit in this matter.

As for "what did it profit" did you consider the post I supplied the link to about the offering for the poor Jews?

I must ask a conclusion from you though. What do you think is the purpose and focus of the story from the rest of chapter 21 all the way to the end of the book of Acts? Paul dealing with his mistakes or Paul preaching the Gospel to even more men who had not yet heard (the Great Commission) even while in chains?

Frankly, I think Rockie is doing a better job communicating with you than I am (I take the blame for that), and saying far less actually , so I'll let him drive the conversation (in that cool looking car of his ).

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

:fight

Oh' Goody! Off topic. So let me just ask Josh to tell us how he comes up with Paul writting Hebrews?? (with my added high/lite, which 'i' agree;)) Just one time OK Rockie?:yes

Josh says:
Thanks for pointing that out Elijah, and I did see you point that out earlier. I mentioned that verse also in my post above. It is also true that Paul was called just as equally to the Jews as he was the Gentiles, "the children of Israel". I noticed that a while back, and is one reason I think Paul may have written the book of Hebrews - but that is another matter.

I see that Rockie and I were typing replies to patience7 about the same time, so we wrote similar things. I think we are are in agreement with you Elijah as well as Childeye who mentioned that there was no difficulty with this account earlier.

God Bless,
~Josh

LOL! The second I saw "Oh Goody!" I was already laughing. Well, so that we don't side track Rockie's thread (:D) I'll point you to a post I made *here* in a thread on the book of Hebrews where I answered the question on who I think wrote it and why.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Yep, I am well aware of what Paul's mission was and our mission - to spread the gospel and Paul's mission was to spread the gospel to the Gentiles because the Jews weren't going to receive his testimony concerning Jesus. (Acts 22:18-21)

To clarify, you do believe Paul was not only called as an Apostle to the Gentiles but also to the Jews right? Jesus said it Himself: "he [Paul] is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15).

 

[patience7]

Then why did you ask, "what did it profit?"
It profited a whole bunch!

May I just ask Who did he preach the gospel to and who believed unto salvation among those at Jerusalem?

Just asking

 

[patience7]

If all you say is true then it would only prove that Paul had a very hard heart and incessantly stopped up his ears to the Spirit in this matter.

As for "what did it profit" did you consider the post I supplied the link to about the offering for the poor Jews?

I must ask a conclusion from you though. What do you think is the purpose and focus of the story from the rest of chapter 21 all the way to the end of the book of Acts? Paul dealing with his mistakes or Paul preaching the Gospel to even more men who had not yet heard (the Great Commission) even while in chains?

Frankly, I think Rockie is doing a better job communicating with you than I am (I take the blame for that), and saying far less actually , so I'll let him drive the conversation (in that cool looking car of his ).

God Bless,
~Josh

If all I say is true? Didn't I take everything from the scriptures and weren't they in context with the immediate subject? Anyway, let me say that Paul was a new believer. It hadn't been very long since his conversion. We grow daily in our walk and we still walk around in the flesh. I don't see it as him having a very hard heart at all - I see it as his desire to share the gospel was so great that he followed his feelings, emotions, his intellect. That happens to all of us at one point or another in a lot of situations. It's part of being human. God sure didn't hold it against him. Paul had great revelation from God.

 

[Jake]

May I just ask Who did he preach the gospel to and who believed unto salvation among those at Jerusalem?

Just asking

I hope you don't take this the wrong way - at all - it is not my intention. We get ourselves into trouble when we deny the power of God, and with your question, it seems this is what you are doing. In fact, it is quit unbelievable that you have asked not only this question, but the question previous - what did it profit?

How many times was Paul able to share his testimony? We should never deny God's power when it comes to sharing our testimony and what it does supernaturally to people's hearts, even to unbelievers.

Have you personally learned anything from Paul's example from Jerusalem to the rest of his ministry? If not, then I can see why you would ask those questions.

Besides Christ, Paul was the forerunner of spreading the gospel, he not only spread it among Gentiles, but he also spread it among the Jews. We are taken on Paul's journey, to learn what it means to truly be a disciple of Christ. If you are not suffering for the sake of the cross, then you are doing something wrong.

 

[cyberjosh]

If all I say is true? Didn't I take everything from the scriptures and weren't they in context with the immediate subject?

Don't take this the wrong way but I also wrote you very detailed posts using those same Scriptures to make my case and you did not reply in detail to each of my points. So rather than simply disagree with you I wanted to at least throw you something to chew on (what my conclusion would be - about Paul's heart being hard).

If you feel like it, as a courtesy (not necessary though), you could go back and answer some the the unanswered questions that I posed to you (like what you thought about the the Jerusalem offering and why Paul was not rebuked, etc.). I would love to discuss this with you, but it goes both ways. You should take my points into account also, even if you disagree with them. It may not be your posting style but often we give point-by-point quotations and answers here (as I did for some of your earlier posts). A few times you have quoted my entire post and replied to only one point. Just saying...

Anyway, let me say that Paul was a new believer. It hadn't been very long since his conversion.

Paul had been a Christian for 20 years at the point he went to Jerusalem and he had written Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, and 1 & 2 Thessalonians by that time, which do not contain insubstantial Theology. He was a mature believer at that point (which is not to say perfect). See the date charts here for Paul's ministry and epistle authorship: Chronology of Apostle Paul's Journeys and Epistles.

We grow daily in our walk and we still walk around in the flesh. I don't see it as him having a very hard heart at all - I see it as his desire to share the gospel was so great that he followed his feelings, emotions, his intellect. That happens to all of us at one point or another in a lot of situations. It's part of being human. God sure didn't hold it against him. Paul had great revelation from God.

It's not that I don't understand the kind of experience you are describing, but I just don't think it fits with this Scripture.

If we ignored the Spirit after we had been told in town after town, again and again, and even had a prophet come to us (that's not common experience today - nor then actually) and enact being bound in chains, telling us not to go and we still didn't listen do you think we would be without excuse? We would have to stop up our ears to the Spirit intentionally (no ignorance can be claimed) like a disobedient child who says "I don't want to listen". How would that that not hard hearted? Nonetheless, I don't think that was the case anyhow, because I do not believe Paul did anything wrong. And I did explain my reasoning behind that in previous posts. I won't bother to retype all of it over again, so please go back if you are curious about that reasoning. And I did give Scripture in context as well.

God Bless,
~Josh