Bible Study Confusion about what the scriptures say about the condition of the dead?

[Divinyl]

Hi everyone,

I have posted here before about my struggles with my Christianity and faith and it all led me to look deeper into the scriptures. I have learned from different religious groups (like Jehovahs Witnesses) that the dead go back to the earth, they base that on a scripture in Ecclesiastes which states "the living are conscious they will die, but the dead are conscious of nothing at all" and also a scripture where Jesus says "Do not marvel at this because the hour is coming where all those in memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out" and the JW's use these two scriptures to show that the dead lie in the earth awaiting resurrection upon Christ's return. They don't believe anyone but a chosen people (the 144,000 in revelation) go to heaven.

But then there are those scriptures where Jesus speaks of preparing a place for us in his father's house with many mansions, and when either Peter or Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The JW's don't believe in going anywhere at death to be with the Lord, they believe in a future paradise earth where we'll be resurrected back to physical form and live forever ON EARTH like God intended Adam and Eve to.

And I am just confused... because there are scriptures that imply the dead are dust, not in heaven or anywhere else, but then there are scriptures that teach we go to be with the Lord at death and the stronger I become in my faith, and love, I realize I just want to be wherever the Lord is, and I try not to over think where it'll be and in what form I'll be in, etc. But a believer in Christ, what hope should I hold onto? That we go to heaven to be with the Lord at death, or that we go to sleep (as did Lazarus) until we are resurrected? Please help me to understand what the Bible really teaches about the dead because I think I've been deceived. Thank you

 

[pokemons]

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. - LOL

 

[Comprehender]

Hi Divinyl,

Some aspects of Mormon doctrine (not all) are helpful to me, like this one about our spirits after death...

"That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." -(Book of Mormon) Alma 34:34


It's also taught that the spirit world is right here, & of many mansions - or kingdoms - Telestial, Terrestial & Celestial.
Although I don't take it all literally - I think the basic idea makes sense.
Time and space are relative - we operate protected by illusions of time - planets & sun that give us structure.
Spirituality operates in different (more?) dimensions.
Also, in life, we tend to gravitate toward people we feel comfortable with... socially, intellectually, economically, spiritually etc.
Religion - is about groups or legions... which we seem to be compelled to belong to.

I don't understand exactly what happens after death - but I have reason to believe it's beautiful - peacefull without all of the worries we have in life.
"Better... the day of death than the day of one's birth." -Eccl 7:1
"dust return to the earth...spirit shall return unto God." -Eccl 12:7

I believe spiritual progress never stops. It may slow down considerably because we tend to only be able to change/progress when we are separate, not all one with God.
It's kindof paradoxical - after death, spiritually it seems we are connected (even if it's a friend of a friend kind of connection) to God and everyone... yet I also think we maintain some individuality.
I've heard it's kindof like when you eat an apple - after most of it is gone, it didn't just disapper, but changed energy by being incorporated through your body systems.

Have you ever read about any Near Death Experiences?

Oh... and as long as you study things out in your mind (along with your personal experience & common sense) & then pray with your heart, you won't be as deceived. If you neglect either, you may more likely be deceived. But even if you are deceived - who isn't? I, for one am not even close to all-knowing & am quite ignor-ant of much, believing some things that are not completely true. God made us imperfect and with a type of veil - to help us cope with life & learn "line upone line" - because most of us can only handle that much added truth at a time.

 

[Divinyl]

I have read a lot of NDE's but i don't know if they are actually of the devil to deceive people into believing in an afterlife or just a manifestation of the mind when someone is close to dying. My mother was being strangled when she came out of her body and claims she saw herself, but i don't know if it proves something in us survives death, or if its just tricks of the brain when it's oxygen deprived. I tend to believe in the latter explanation. But i don't know.


Does the bible speak of NDE's? Because if the dead are really dead as it says in Ecclesiastes, NDE's are not scriptural.


I try to just go back to the basic thought that death is nothing to be fearful of, if we die in Jesus, but i can't help but question if the JWs are right that the dead go to sleep, and are resurrected onto a new earth and there is no heaven for us. Because i liked the idea of living forever on earth, but i also want to be with Jesus so it doesn't matter where i am. I'm just SO confused! Due to my JW background i always believed I'd live on earth forever in physical form even if i die, because i'll be resurrected. So I've never been able to grasp being spiritual, not human. Then i learned "paradise earth" only appears in JW literature.

What does the Bible teach??? Do we go to the grave or do we never really die?

 

[Roof]

that we go to sleep (as did Lazarus)

I dont think dying is the same kind of unconcious sleep we experience.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Clearly Abraham and the rich man have conciousness (awareness) as they are talking with each other.

 

[John 8:32]

I dont think dying is the same kind of unconcious sleep we experience.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Clearly Abraham and the rich man have conciousness (awareness) as they are talking with each other.

It is a much deeper unconsciousness...

Psa 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

None of them? Why? They are dead, totally unconscious.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

In the NT it is likened to a very deep sleep...

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Christ likened it to sleep, they misunderstood and He had to correct them. He called death, sleeping.

Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Martha understood that the dead are dead until the last day.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

What a dirty trick! Here was Lazarus in heaven enjoying the rewards found behind the Pearly Gates and Christ jerks him back down and puts him back into the body that just died. Nope, didn't happen that way, Lazarus was dead, unconscious and awaiting a resurrection.

There is not a single account of anyone being raised from the dead ever reporting what death was like, what they saw, etc. Why? Because...

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The dead are totally unconscious.

By the way, Lazarus and the rich man is a parable so do not try to establish doctrine with it.

 

[GraceAbounds]

When a Christian passes away his/her body goes to the grave, but his/her spirit and soul goes to heaven to be in the presence of God (II Corinthians 5:6; Philippians 1:21-23). This is why Jesus told the saved thief that he would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:42-43). For we read that at His Second Coming the dead shall rise first and after we that are alive shall meet Christ Jesus in the air (I Thessalonians 4:13-18). Remember a Christian who is already pass from this world is alive, but their dead body will be resurrected and change into a glorious body fashioned like unto Jesus' Body; to meet their spirits as they come with Jesus(Philippians 3:20-21; I Corinthians 15:51-53).

 

[John 8:32]

It is a matter of punctuation, the original manuscripts were not punctuated. The comma was inserted in the wrong place in Luke 23. A better rendering would be...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If the thief really went to heaven that day, he beat Christ there by three days and nights and Christ then is not the firstborn among many brethren...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The resurrection takes place at His return...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

See below and notice the difference a comma can make.

 

[rrowell]

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. - LOL

By your "LOL" I am not sure if you mean to defile the language of our lord or if you just don't understand this verse? or forgive me if it is I just don't understand what you are saying.

by the "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32) was Jesus telling them there is life after death. Notice what he did not say, he did not say "I was the God of Abraham", this is because Abraham is in a new life and he is still his God, (the God of the living).

 

[John 8:32]

By your "LOL" I am not sure if you mean to defile the language of our lord or if you just don't understand this verse? or forgive me if it is I just don't understand what you are saying.

by the "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32) was Jesus telling them there is life after death. Notice what he did not say, he did not say "I was the God of Abraham", this is because Abraham is in a new life and he is still his God, (the God of the living).

Not yet, Abraham is still in his grave awaiting a resurrection, just like David...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[rrowell]

Hi everyone,

I have posted here before about my struggles with my Christianity and faith and it all led me to look deeper into the scriptures. I have learned from different religious groups (like Jehovahs Witnesses) that the dead go back to the earth, they base that on a scripture in Ecclesiastes which states "the living are conscious they will die, but the dead are conscious of nothing at all" and also a scripture where Jesus says "Do not marvel at this because the hour is coming where all those in memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out" and the JW's use these two scriptures to show that the dead lie in the earth awaiting resurrection upon Christ's return. They don't believe anyone but a chosen people (the 144,000 in revelation) go to heaven.

But then there are those scriptures where Jesus speaks of preparing a place for us in his father's house with many mansions, and when either Peter or Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The JW's don't believe in going anywhere at death to be with the Lord, they believe in a future paradise earth where we'll be resurrected back to physical form and live forever ON EARTH like God intended Adam and Eve to.

And I am just confused... because there are scriptures that imply the dead are dust, not in heaven or anywhere else, but then there are scriptures that teach we go to be with the Lord at death and the stronger I become in my faith, and love, I realize I just want to be wherever the Lord is, and I try not to over think where it'll be and in what form I'll be in, etc. But a believer in Christ, what hope should I hold onto? That we go to heaven to be with the Lord at death, or that we go to sleep (as did Lazarus) until we are resurrected? Please help me to understand what the Bible really teaches about the dead because I think I've been deceived. Thank you

Much of the confusion is what the English bible translates to the English word "Hell".

Luke 16:19-26 (KJV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.



We see here three men that have died, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man (of whom we are not given any other name).
Notice in verse 23 the rich man lift up his eyes, being in torments,seeing Abraham (and Lazarus) afar off

They were all three in what the Greek call Hades, and the Hebrew call Sheol or a place for the dead (the grave), the rich man found himself looking up, so he was in a lower place, a place of torment (Gehenna, one division of the Hadean World) seeing afar off Abraham and Lazarus in presents of the blessed, (Paradise or Abraham's Bosom) and a "great gulf fixed" between them so neither could pass from one side to the other.(verse 26)

On the cross, before Jesus died (and it is very important to note "before Jesus died") he told the thief "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Jesus, still being under the old law could save this man by speaking the words and told the thief he would see him in the blessed side of the Hadean world, after the death of Christ one will only be saved by keeping the commandments of the New Testament that took effect by the death of the testator (Jesus).

Jesus arose from the Hadean world the third day (leaving behind the thief, Abram, Lazarus and all other blessed that have passed over into Paradise) and now sits on the right hand of God awaiting the time appointed by God to bring those up from the grave (the resurrection, those on both sides of the Hadean world will arise) and the Blessed will be taken up to the prepared place, The Kingdom of God (Heaven)

 

[rrowell]

Not yet, Abraham is still in his grave awaiting a resurrection, just like David...

He is in Hades, the blessed side awaiting the resurrection, see my last post.

 

[rrowell]

It is a matter of punctuation, the original manuscripts were not punctuated. The comma was inserted in the wrong place in Luke 23. A better rendering would be...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If the thief really went to heaven that day, he beat Christ there by three days and nights and Christ then is not the firstborn among many brethren...

You can move the comma and rewrite the bible to fit your doctrine, or you can take the context of the bible and come to the meaning of "Paradise".

 

[John 8:32]

You can move the comma and rewrite the bible to fit your doctrine, or you can take the context of the bible and come to the meaning of "Paradise".

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

God says that the soul can die...

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

God says that we are raised to life at Christ's return...

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That our hope is the resurrection from the dead...

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Or you can continue to listen to the voice of the whispering enchanter who said...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[rrowell]

Or you can continue to listen to the voice of the whispering enchanter who said...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The body will surly die, the spirit shall live for a eternity and your choice of accepting Christ will determine where it will be, now if you wish to talk about "spiritual death" that is another subject...

Show me one verse (not a blast of verses to divert) that will support the fact that the soul will die anything but a spiritual death, a disconnection from God...

 

[John 8:32]

The body will surly die, the spirit shall live for a eternity and your choice of accepting Christ will determine where it will be, now if you wish to talk about "spiritual death" that is another subject...

Show me one verse (not a blast of verses to divert) that will support the fact that the soul will die anything but a spiritual death, a disconnection from God...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[rrowell]

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul"

I think we can agree here this form of "kill" is not of God as they have no power over the soul...

"but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

Note the emphasis I placed on the word "hell", it is translated from the Greek "geena" (gheh'-en-nah) of Hebrew origin and describes a place or state of "everlasting punishment".

Since this "hell" is the abode of "everlasting punishment" then how could the word "destroy" (Greek "apollumi" (ap-ol'-loo-mee) to destry fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose)) mean anything other than to:

"lose ones soul to everlasting punishment" hence the soul will not die but be punished forever.

 

[BornAgain]

The enemies at their worst could only "kill the body," but could not "kill the soul." The disciples of Jesus were not to fear persecutors, but fear God; the persecutors can only kill the body; they cannot harm the soul. God is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. The destruction which persecutors bring upon the body is of small account when compared with the destruction of the soul; no word can portray the destruction of soul and body in hell. A fear of God's judgment, as well as reference for his majesty is the proper attitude to take toward God; to suffer meekly whatever persecutions may be brought upon Christians is the proper attitude to take toward the enemies of Christ.....

 

[tim-from-pa]

Since this "hell" is the abode of "everlasting punishment" then how could the word "destroy" (Greek "apollumi" (ap-ol'-loo-mee) to destry fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose)) mean anything other than to:

"lose ones soul to everlasting punishment" hence the soul will not die but be punished forever.

I think you're trying to define the word "destroy" in the framework of misinterpreting the word "everlasting". Everlasting fire or everlasting punishment is describing the effect of the fire and punishment. In other words, it's modifying the the action of the word fire, not the condition of the person destroyed therein. And to put it another way, it's the action of the fire (hence the punishment) that is eternal.

I once burned a book I did not like. I said to everyone that it was destroyed in everlasting fire, or another way of saying it is that it was destroyed forever by fire. The fire's long been out, but the book is still totally destroyed. It no longer exists.

 

[John 8:32]

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul"

I think we can agree here this form of "kill" is not of God as they have no power over the soul...

"but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

Note the emphasis I placed on the word "hell", it is translated from the Greek "geena" (gheh'-en-nah) of Hebrew origin and describes a place or state of "everlasting punishment".

Since this "hell" is the abode of "everlasting punishment" then how could the word "destroy" (Greek "apollumi" (ap-ol'-loo-mee) to destry fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose)) mean anything other than to:

"lose ones soul to everlasting punishment" hence the soul will not die but be punished forever.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

The soul can be destroyed, can die, can perish. You are mishandling the meaning. Eternal punishment is not state of continuing punishing, but of once and for all punishment.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today? No, but the punishment, the destruction is eternal. They are done and done.

Eze 20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

Unquenchable fire? Is it still burning? No, but when it was, it was not put out (quenched) until it burned itself out.

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

This happened, but Jerusalem is not still burning.

The wicked do not burn forever, they are burned up...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Burned to ashes. The wages of sin is death, not life in another place.