Bible Study Confusion about what the scriptures say about the condition of the dead?

[rrowell]

I think you're trying to define the word "destroy" in the framework of misinterpreting the word "everlasting". Everlasting fire or everlasting punishment is describing the effect of the fire and punishment. In other words, it's modifying the the action of the word fire, not the condition of the person destroyed therein. And to put it another way, it's the action of the fire (hence the punishment) that is eternal.

I once burned a book I did not like. I said to everyone that it was destroyed in everlasting fire, or another way of saying it is that it was destroyed forever by fire. The fire's long been out, but the book is still totally destroyed. It no longer exists.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

The soul can be destroyed, can die, can perish. You are mishandling the meaning. Eternal punishment is not state of continuing punishing, but of once and for all punishment.

No, you are both twisting the scripture to make is fit your man made doctrine, to read it as you do you must take it out of context with the rest of the Gospel:

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

In Hell, the soul will never die but only wish it could as the fire is never quenched.

The Lord gives this to us in metaphoric form because the pain and anguish are beyond human comprehension and some still don't get it!

 

[tim-from-pa]

No, you are both twisting the scripture to make is fit your man made doctrine, to read it as you do you must take it out of context with the rest of the Gospel......

In Hell, the soul will never die but only wish it could as the fire is never quenched.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Now which is it? Being alive forever and ever in torment, or dying? Torment while being alive is still life, albeit a miserable one. You can't define that as death.

Speaking of man-made doctrine, I hope you don't believe in a Dante's hell --- that's about as traditional and pagan as it gets.

 

[John 8:32]

No, you are both twisting the scripture to make is fit your man made doctrine, to read it as you do you must take it out of context with the rest of the Gospel:

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

In Hell, the soul will never die but only wish it could as the fire is never quenched.

The Lord gives this to us in metaphoric form because the pain and anguish are beyond human comprehension and some still don't get it!

You take this quote as is? So there will be those in paradise without eyes? Without hands? Feet? Arms?

I already dealt with unquenchable fire, doesn't mean it burns forever, means it is not put out until it burns out. If it burns forever then think on this...

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

This in reference to...

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The unrepentant. Now continue with 2 Pet 3...

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

How does the New Heaven and Earth come into being with this fire raging for eternity?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Coming down to a raging inferno?

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No more sorrow, crying or death? What about those in hell? Are they now happy campers? What do you mean the former things have passed away? Well almost passed away except those in hell? The Bible teaches no such thing. I think it may be you reading into the scriptures the fable passed on by Dante Alighieri.

 

[rrowell]

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Now which is it? Being alive forever and ever in torment, or dying? Torment while being alive is still life, albeit a miserable one. You can't define that as death.

Speaking of man-made doctrine, I hope you don't believe in a Dante's hell --- that's about as traditional and pagan as it gets.

When you quote scripture, use the verse and version so others can see how you tort the word.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Again you twist scripture to make your doctrine with disregard for the context, this scripture is in reference to the father not being held accountable for the sin of the son or the son not being accountable for the sin of the father, here the Lord is talking about "spiritual death" and "spiritual death" is a disconnection from God.

Again to make this scripture fit your doctrine you must disregard the Gospel :

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[John 8:32]

When you quote scripture, use the verse and version so others can see how you tort the word.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Again you twist scripture to make your doctrine with disregard for the context, this scripture is in reference to the father not being held accountable for the sin of the son or the son not being accountable for the sin of the father, here the Lord is talking about "spiritual death" and "spiritual death" is a disconnection from God.

Again to make this scripture fit your doctrine you must disregard the Gospel :

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Frankly it is you who is distorting scripture. You are taking one scripture and building a doctrine around it and disregarding the many others that show that there is not everburning hell.

 

[farouk]

Frankly it is you who is distorting scripture. You are taking one scripture and building a doctrine around it and disregarding the many others that show that there is not everburning hell.

J:

I don't agree with your characterization. Those Scriptures speak clearly.

 

[AirDancer]

Reminder to all: This is a discussion forum...not a debate forum

If it is your desire to debate this topic, please start another thread in another forum where you can debate to your heart's content.

totopic

 

[rrowell]

Reminder to all: This is a discussion forum...not a debate forum

If it is your desire to debate this topic, please start another thread in another forum where you can debate to your heart's content.

totopic

AirDancer,

Thank you.
You are correct and I will be the first to apologize, anyone interested in continuing this discussion I will open a new thread in the Apologetic and Theology forum.

 

[AirDancer]

Thank you for your cooperation, rrowell ... it is definitely appreciated!

 

[rrowell]

Thank you for your cooperation, rrowell ... it is definitely appreciated!

Your welcome and thanks for keeping order, however it appears my opposition has not followed me to the new thread ;)

 

[AirDancer]

however it appears my opposition has not followed me to the new thread

Just give 'em a wee bit of time, my friend... I'm sure they will make an appearance soon ...

 

[Comprehender]

I have read a lot of NDE's but i don't know if they are actually of the devil to deceive people into believing in an afterlife or just a manifestation of the mind when someone is close to dying. My mother was being strangled when she came out of her body and claims she saw herself, but i don't know if it proves something in us survives death, or if its just tricks of the brain when it's oxygen deprived. I tend to believe in the latter explanation. But i don't know.

The funny thing about beliefs is that our subconscious takes all beliefs as if true.
Maybe we are nothing but these bodies... & when they die - poof - gone!
But I don't think that makes sense & it certaintly isn't a very happy belief, to me.

Nobody really knows for sure what happens after death.
I don't know, you don't know, the people who lived thousands of years ago who wrote the scriptures & all those who changed scripture meanings over the years... none of us have lived to tell!
Yet, I do know that energy never just disapears... but changes or is passed on in another form.
I also know that when I've read some NDE's, I've felt a spirit that comforted me & gave me hope & inspiration to live better. So, whether this belief in after life is true or not, is less important than the fact that believing in it works well for me.

Does the bible speak of NDE's? Because if the dead are really dead as it says in Ecclesiastes, NDE's are not scriptural.

I was really suprised to find out that at some time, there is evidence that those written by or about in the bible, believed in reincarnation & astral bodies.
Remember when Jesus asked "who do you think I am?" And they responded, that some say he is Elijah (or some previous prophet) etc...
Also, when he was walking with some, they didn't realize he was who he was.
And about astral (spiritual) bodies... think about all those many paintings of saints with halos...
IE: http://www.cromwell-intl.com/travel/romania/bucovina-gura-humorului/pictures/moldovita-3941.jpg

I try to just go back to the basic thought that death is nothing to be fearful of, if we die in Jesus, but i can't help but question if the JWs are right that the dead go to sleep, and are resurrected onto a new earth and there is no heaven for us. Because i liked the idea of living forever on earth, but i also want to be with Jesus so it doesn't matter where i am. I'm just SO confused! Due to my JW background i always believed I'd live on earth forever in physical form even if i die, because i'll be resurrected. So I've never been able to grasp being spiritual, not human. Then i learned "paradise earth" only appears in JW literature.

Actually, LDS lit also teaches that the spirit world is right here on earth.
I think it's true... but I think that trying to control the spirit world (ie through weegie boards will summon spirits who like control & not necessarily as uplifting). I think when we are not "trying" to summon spirits is when sometimes we might sense spirits (ie: people who love us who've passed on), especially when we need their help in one way or another.

"The hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers & the hearts of the fathers shall turn to their children." (Paraphrased from Malachi 4:5-6)

What does the Bible teach??? Do we go to the grave or do we never really die?

I take scriptures as what they are - writings from others who were trying to understand & get close to God & spirituality.
The bible is not my God. God is.
God is love... & life... light & truth.
Truth tells me that energy changes, but doesn't just zap out of existence.