Confusion with Faith Healing & Grace Healing

[jonahmano]

We know in the ministry of Jesus Christ when he was on earth he did many miracles and healings and many were healed because of their faith. At one place it was also return that He couldn't do any healings there because of their lack of faith

But after the resurrection of Christ and the filling of the Holy Spirit in upper room, we can see that a lame man from his birth who was asking alms was healed in the name of Jesus Christ by God's vessels Peter and John and I think it's was God's favour that healed that lame man because He didn't expect to get well rather he was only asking alms, so I clearly understand that there wasn't any faith factor here.

In today's world many miracles and wonders are performed by God's vessels in the name of Christ but I alsoo see not all people get delivered or healed. many come in wheel chairs with a faith and knowledge more than that of lame man but they go back empty handed.

My question is what is difference of the healing of the woman with blood issue in the ministry of Christ and the healing of lame man by birth in the temple. How do we differentiate both set of contradicting atmospheres of healing ministry?

And why aren't all people healed in a service? There are many unbelievers who get healed with their any faith or knowledge of Christ but the church doesn't get healed very often.

 

[Willie T]

Your last sentence is interesting. We find that to be true much of the time..... unbelievers outside the church get healed quite often, but not as much, members.

I have some ides on that, but I'll wait to see what else is said.

 

[Karl]

One major difference between the woman with the issue and the lame man is we are told in Acts 4:22 the age of the man was over 40 years old, that means Jesus had to of walked by him many times before His ministry started and at least nine times after, so, like all healings, it is the will of God, when the people saw Jesus preform miracles and heal people we read they glorified God and there is always a purpose, read the rest of the story, Peter glorified God and God used it as an opportunity to present the Gospel, ...the answer to your question, most miracle and healing ministries today glorify the ministry and not God, ...that's why there is so much chicanery in them,

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 Tim 3:5

The woman's faith was in who Jesus was, Jewish Rabbis wore their rank on the hem of their garments (like our military wears their rank on their sleeves or collars) in touching the hem of His garment she was acknowledging He was the Messiah and her faith in Him being the Messiah is what healed her, ...kinda like our faith in Jesus as our Savior heals/saves us from the sickness/penalty of our sin.

 

[LanceA]

I'm a firm believer in the healing ministry. I can tell you just from my own experience with my family is it is what they have been taught. Just today my son was sick with the stomach flu, throwing up from 8am to 230pm. We prayed over him, myself and others we know, and he has been symptom free since 230pm. Now my family are all Christians but when they talk about healing it is all about the doctor doing it. When I bring up they need to have faith that God has already done everything He is going to do they pretty much ignore me and they don't see any healing done in their lives. I went to the dentist a month ago with terrible pain in one of my teeth and after x-rays he said I had a cracked tooth and needed a root canal. I didn't have the money at the time and I knew that God would heal me. I prayed over my tooth and asked for prayer as well. Slowly within two weeks I am pain free and no issues whatsoever. I told my sister this during Christmas and she basically laughed at me and told me I would be in the dentist office having the procedure. This is complete lack of faith and doubt from her and of course I rebuked that doubt in the name of Jesus. Granted it wasn't an instant healing but it did happen. I give all the credit to God and His promises to me. So when I see or hear people talking about how God hasn't done this or hasn't done that I just shake my head. God has already done everything He is going to do for us. What more do people want from Him? He sent His son to die for us, to take on our sicknesses and hurts but we still want Him to do more. So next time someone goes to pray don't ask Him to heal you, praise Him for already healing you and have faith and belief it has been done. God Bless.

 

[reba]

 

[Deborah13]

I second that.

 

[Malachi]

In today's world many miracles and wonders are performed by God's vessels in the name of Christ but I also see not all people get delivered or healed. many come in wheel chairs with a faith and knowledge more than that of lame man but they go back empty handed.

First of all, all "grace healing" is through faith (Jas 5:13-18). But today's "faith healers" are "fake healers". They raise the hopes of the hopeless, then dash their hopes.

My question is what is difference of the healing of the woman with blood issue in the ministry of Christ and the healing of lame man by birth in the temple. How do we differentiate both set of contradicting atmospheres of healing ministry?

There is nothing "contradictory" here. The miracles of Christ were to authenticate the fact that He was the promised Messiah -- that He had come from God and did "the works of God". That woman had seen the Lord touch others and heal them, so she simply reversed the process in faith. Today we "touch" Christ through prayer.

The healing of the lame man by Peter and John was to bring glory to God and sinners to salvation. It was to show the Jews that God had empowered the apostles not only to preach the Gospel but to do it in the power of the Holy Spirit. That God was with them and working through them.

And why aren't all people healed in a service? There are many unbelievers who get healed with their any faith or knowledge of Christ but the church doesn't get healed very often.

The days of signs and wonders came to an end with the apostles. Today "the prayer of faith shall heal the sick" but not always, only according to God's will. Study Epaphroditus. We all would love to have a guarantee of healing, but healing is not guaranteed (as some teach, and others learn through experience).

 

[Willie T]

I don't really care what nonsense people want to believe for themselves, but I do take serious objection to trying to teach the lie that signs and wonders came to an end with the Apostles. The Bible says just the opposite, and it NOWHERE says those things ended. I DID say, "nowhere", right?

 

[LanceA]

The days of signs and wonders came to an end with the apostles. Today "the prayer of faith shall heal the sick" but not always, only according to God's will. Study Epaphroditus. We all would love to have a guarantee of healing, but healing is not guaranteed (as some teach, and others learn through experience).

John 14:12
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
Malachi
So Jesus says we will do greater works than He did. Do you say this was only the Apostles? Do you not think our world needs to see signs and wonders just as much as back then? We have believers who have fallen away, people that are turned away from Christianity because of Churches that aren't preaching the Word. Our society needs these miracles just as much as they did back in the day. Please show us with scripture that healing and other signs aren't for this day? Show us where it has stopped?

 

[Willie T]

John 14:12
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
Malachi
So Jesus says we will do greater works than He did. Do you say this was only the Apostles? Do you not think our world needs to see signs and wonders just as much as back then? We have believers who have fallen away, people that are turned away from Christianity because of Churches that aren't preaching the Word. Our society needs these miracles just as much as they did back in the day. Please show us with scripture that healing and other signs aren't for this day? Show us where it has stopped?

<LIKE>

 

[Malachi]

Please show us with scripture that healing and other signs aren't for this day? Show us where it has stopped?

1. God was bearing witness to the apostles and their Gospel message with signs, wonders, and miracles (Heb 2:1-4):
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? [It is only according to the will of God]

2. Even Paul was unable to miraculously heal Epaphroditus or Timothy towards the end of his ministry:
Phil 2:25-30
25Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
26For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
28I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
29Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
30Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
1 Tim 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. [Since Timothy was his constant companion, Paul could have, and would have, made him perfectly whole had he simply reached out and touched him. But is was not to be].

3. James gave specific instructions for the healing of Christians through the prayer of faith and involving the elders of the church (Jas 5:13-18):
13Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

4. Christians who fail to examine themselves thoroughly before the Lord's Supper can bring sickness and premature death upon themselves (1 Cor 11:26-34):
26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [die]
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

 

[LanceA]

1. God was bearing witness to the apostles and their Gospel message with signs, wonders, and miracles (Heb 2:1-4):
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? [It is only according to the will of God]

2. Even Paul was unable to miraculously heal Epaphroditus or Timothy towards the end of his ministry:
Phil 2:25-30
25Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
26For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
28I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
29Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
30Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
1 Tim 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. [Since Timothy was his constant companion, Paul could have, and would have, made him perfectly whole had he simply reached out and touched him. But is was not to be].

3. James gave specific instructions for the healing of Christians through the prayer of faith and involving the elders of the church (Jas 5:13-18):
13Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

4. Christians who fail to examine themselves thoroughly before the Lord's Supper can bring sickness and premature death upon themselves (1 Cor 11:26-34):
26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [die]
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

You didn't provide anything that says it has stopped.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't really care what nonsense people want to believe for themselves, but I do take serious objection to trying to teach the lie that signs and wonders came to an end with the Apostles. The Bible says just the opposite, and it NOWHERE says those things ended. I DID say, "nowhere", right?

And we wonder why we don't see more healings, etc in the our churches but do in third world countries.
This is exactly why.

The truth is there never was any faith healers, only people who prayed with faith and people who received by faith. The Lord is the healer.
He never has changed, people changed.

 

[Willie T]

And we wonder why we don't see more healings, etc in the our churches but do in third world countries.
This is exactly why.

The truth is there never was any faith healers, only people who prayed with faith and people who received by faith. The Lord is the healer.
He never has changed, people changed.

<LIKE>

 

[Deborah13]

1. God was bearing witness to the apostles and their Gospel message with signs, wonders, and miracles (Heb 2:1-4):
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? [It is only according to the will of God]

2. Even Paul was unable to miraculously heal Epaphroditus or Timothy towards the end of his ministry:
Phil 2:25-30
25Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
26For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
28I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
29Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
30Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
1 Tim 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. [Since Timothy was his constant companion, Paul could have, and would have, made him perfectly whole had he simply reached out and touched him. But is was not to be].

3. James gave specific instructions for the healing of Christians through the prayer of faith and involving the elders of the church (Jas 5:13-18):
13Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

4. Christians who fail to examine themselves thoroughly before the Lord's Supper can bring sickness and premature death upon themselves (1 Cor 11:26-34):
26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [die]
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

What scripture says it stopped?

 

[LanceA]

Malachi I'm not saying people don't die; this is the order of life. Holy Spirit is going to speak to us and we need to be able to hear Him. The Lord's prayer says "thy kingdom come thy will be done, on EARTH as it is in HEAVEN." What is the will of the Father in Heaven? Scripture tells us there will be no more death, sickness etc.. in Heaven. It is God's WILL for us to be in good health, it is in scripture you just need to learn to listen to HS.

 

[jonahmano]

First of all, all "grace healing" is through faith (Jas 5:13-18). But today's "faith healers" are "fake healers". They raise the hopes of the hopeless, then dash their hopes.

Differ from your opinions what was the commandment of Jesus Christ? Heal the sick, Cast out demons, freely you receive, freely you give. Maybe I think faith/grace for a believer but definitely grace for an unbeliever.

There is nothing "contradictory" here. The miracles of Christ were to authenticate the fact that He was the promised Messiah -- that He had come from God and did "the works of God". That woman had seen the Lord touch others and heal them, so she simply reversed the process in faith. Today we "touch" Christ through prayer..

Contradiction is in the scenario. The woman was healed because of her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, even Jesus Christ testified of this. Now in the case of lame man, he was asking for alms and he had no idea that he would be healed. It's only when Peter and John perceived that the favour of God is upon that lame man, He was healed in the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The healing of the lame man by Peter and John was to bring glory to God and sinners to salvation. It was to show the Jews that God had empowered the apostles not only to preach the Gospel but to do it in the power of the Holy Spirit. That God was with them and working through them.

You spoke right and we need that same power and glory to bring sinners to salvation. If you go between unbelievers calling Jesus Christ is Lord then they will tell you "Are you Nuts?" Do you want to convert us to Christianity. Any faith without evidence or power preached can't yield any results but above that we need the grace of God.

The days of signs and wonders came to an end with the apostles. Today "the prayer of faith shall heal the sick" but not always, only according to God's will. Study Epaphroditus. We all would love to have a guarantee of healing, but healing is not guaranteed (as some teach, and others learn through experience).

I would completely disagree with this point. Herbrews 13:8 says "Jesus Christ the same Yesterday and to day and for ever" So your argument signs and wonders ending with apostles is diminished. In Acts 2 we read that "In the last days God will pour out his Spirit on all flesh and not just on the flesh of the apostles, and didn't see this sentence "I will perform wonders and signs" only for apostles.

I think there is a term called "Grace Healing" to prove that God is the same and all powerful.

 

[Malachi]

What scripture says it stopped?

God expects us to understand that when Christ ascended to Heaven His personal miracles ceased. When the apostles died and went to Heaven their miracles ceased. Paul calls them "the signs of an apostle". Therefore there is no need for a Scripture to say "miracles will stop at ...".

The fact that James does not instruct Christians to seek out other Christians with sign gifts should be proof that sign gifts would not continue indefinitely. Otherwise James would have said "Call for the healers in the church". Instead he said "Call for the elders in the church" because after the sign gifts were withdrawn "the prayer of faith" would heal the sick, and prayer does not require any sign gift.

What was the purpose of the sign gifts? To convince unbelieving Jews (and Gentiles) that the Gospel had come from God and the men preaching that Gospel had a Divine message. Note what it says in Acts 2:22 regarding Jesus of Nazareth: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Today "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17). That does not mean that God will not do miracles of healing through prayer. And sometimes He may not even heal in answer to prayer, because He has His own reason. He would not heal Paul's "thorn in the flesh" (a painful physical disability of some kind) for His own reasons. He did not allow Paul to heal Timothy miraculously either. Are there lessons for us in these things?

 

[Deborah13]

I see a difference between sign and wonders and the gifts of the Holy Spirit that were poured out on all believers at Pentecost. If those gifts were just for a witness to unbelievers I don't think Paul would have said some of the things he did about using them and when to use them.

I don't know that Paul's thorn was a physical condition, but may have been spiritual and caused his body to be frequently beaten and abused by others.
Timothy, poor Timothy. It appears he had a stomach that may not have done well with drinking different types of water, I don't know. If that is the case, 'don't drink the water'. Use some common sense.
And then there is the wine....the Lord's Supper. There is usually two sides to spiritual things. If one can expect to die or be sickly for taking the Body of Christ unworthily should one not expect that there is a blessing for taking it worthily? Could one of those be healing both spiritually and physically in some cases? In the wilderness, when the people looked at the serpent on the wood pole they were healed. What is that but a type of the cross and our Lord.

I don't think there is one formula that God uses for all people. I don't declare God did this for me so He has to do it for you. Who am I to say?

 

[Malachi]

I see a difference between sign and wonders and the gifts of the Holy Spirit that were poured out on all believers at Pentecost. If those gifts were just for a witness to unbelievers I don't think Paul would have said some of the things he did about using them and when to use them.

I believe you're thinking about ALL spiritual gifts, not just sign gifts. There is a difference. There are about 20 spiritual gifts (and Peter also talks about some of them). THE MAJORITY ARE NOT SIGN GIFTS.

We are discussing supernatural healings directly through men. That is called "the gifts of healing" (1 Cor 12:9,30). If "the gifts of healings" were meant to continue throughout Church history, then surely James would have said so, and instructed Christians to "call for THE GIFTS OF HEALING of the church" (Jas 5:14). And if these are so prevalent, why are the hospitals today not empty? Why are these Christian healers sitting at home while the hospitals are crowded?

Christians should think long and hard about this. Supernatural healing through prayer is not "the gifts of healing". And we know that there are multiple healings through prayer every day.