Confusion with Faith Healing & Grace Healing

[LanceA]

God expects us to understand that when Christ ascended to Heaven His personal miracles ceased. When the apostles died and went to Heaven their miracles ceased. Paul calls them "the signs of an apostle". Therefore there is no need for a Scripture to say "miracles will stop at ...".

The fact that James does not instruct Christians to seek out other Christians with sign gifts should be proof that sign gifts would not continue indefinitely. Otherwise James would have said "Call for the healers in the church". Instead he said "Call for the elders in the church" because after the sign gifts were withdrawn "the prayer of faith" would heal the sick, and prayer does not require any sign gift.

What was the purpose of the sign gifts? To convince unbelieving Jews (and Gentiles) that the Gospel had come from God and the men preaching that Gospel had a Divine message. Note what it says in Acts 2:22 regarding Jesus of Nazareth: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Today "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17). That does not mean that God will not do miracles of healing through prayer. And sometimes He may not even heal in answer to prayer, because He has His own reason. He would not heal Paul's "thorn in the flesh" (a painful physical disability of some kind) for His own reasons. He did not allow Paul to heal Timothy miraculously either. Are there lessons for us in these things?

Paul's thorn wasn't a physical injury it was the persecution he was receiving.

 

[Malachi]

Paul's thorn wasn't a physical injury it was the persecution he was receiving.

Really? You speak as though you have first-hand knowledge. Of course, this would support your view that God never withholds healings.

But the majority of commentaries and lexicons indicate that this thorn in the flesh was a physical disability (as I already indicated, since "corporeal" means bodily):

Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown
thorn in the flesh--( Numbers 33:55 , Ezekiel 28:24 ). ALFORD thinks it to be the same bodily affliction as in Galatians 4:13Galatians 4:14 . It certainly was something personal, affecting him individually, and not as an apostle: causing at once acute pain (as "thorn" implies) and shame ("buffet": as slaves are buffeted,1 Peter 2:20 ).

Robertson
A thorn in the flesh (skolop th sarki). This old word is used for splinter, stake, thorn. In the papyri and inscriptions examples occur both for splinter and thorn as the meaning. In the LXX it is usually thorn. The case of th sarki can be either locative (in) or dative (for). What was it? Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted. All sorts of theories are held (malaria, eye-trouble, epilepsy, insomnia, migraine or sick-headache, etc.). It is a blessing to the rest of us that we do not know the particular affliction that so beset Paul.

Thayer’s
σκόλοψ, σκολοπος, ὁ, from Homer down, a pointed piece of wood, a pale, a stake: ἐδόθη μοι σκόλοψ τῇ σαρκί, a sharp stake (others say splinter, A. V. thorn; cf. Numbers 33:55; Ezekiel 28:24; Hosea 2:6 (8); Babrius fab. 122, 1. 10; others (Sir. 43:19)), to pierce my flesh, appears to indicate some constant bodily ailment or infirmity, which, even when Paul had been caught up in a trance to the third heaven, sternly admonished him that he still dwelt in a frail and mortal body,

Henry
We are much in the dark what this was, whether some great trouble or some great temptation. Some think it was an acute bodily pain or sickness; others think it was the indignities done him by the false apostles, and the opposition he met with from them, particularly on the account of his speech, which was contemptible.

Gill
Some have thought that corporeal afflictions are here designed, which may be compared to thorns: see ( Hosea 2:6 ) , and which are not joyous, but grievous to the flesh, and come not by chance, but are by divine appointment, and are designed and made use of, to hide pride from men; and sometimes, by divine permission, Satan has an hand in inflicting them, as in the case of Job: whilst such a general sense is kept to, it is not to be despised, without entering into the particular bodily disorder with which the apostle was afflicted, as some do;

 

[LanceA]

well every one of those sources you used all say "think". So basically you gave me a bunch of theories as to what happened to Paul, and I gave you another one. You haven't proved a thing.

 

[Malachi]

well every one of those sources you used all say "think". So basically you gave me a bunch of theories as to what happened to Paul, and I gave you another one. You haven't proved a thing.

I don't need to prove anything. It is you who needs to prove that those faith healers out there are emptying the hospitals.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't need to prove anything. It is you who needs to prove that those faith healers out there are emptying the hospitals.

Do all those people believe, do they have the faith to be healed? Is it always God will that someone be healed in that way?
Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

well every one of those sources you used all say "think". So basically you gave me a bunch of theories as to what happened to Paul, and I gave you another one. You haven't proved a thing.

I agree with you about the persecution.
The scripture says a "messenger" from satan. I don't think there is anywhere in the Bible were an ailment is called a messenger, only men and angels.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe you're thinking about ALL spiritual gifts, not just sign gifts. There is a difference. There are about 20 spiritual gifts (and Peter also talks about some of them). THE MAJORITY ARE NOT SIGN GIFTS.

We are discussing supernatural healings directly through men. That is called "the gifts of healing" (1 Cor 12:9,30). If "the gifts of healings" were meant to continue throughout Church history, then surely James would have said so, and instructed Christians to "call for THE GIFTS OF HEALING of the church" (Jas 5:14). And if these are so prevalent, why are the hospitals today not empty? Why are these Christian healers sitting at home while the hospitals are crowded?

Christians should think long and hard about this. Supernatural healing through prayer is not "the gifts of healing". And we know that there are multiple healings through prayer every day.

I could be wrong about how I think signs and wonders are different then the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. If I am then they are all still for today.
I tend to think of signs and wonders as being those things that we only see the apostles doing or manifesting, such as Peter's shadow or Paul's sweat.
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
These are the gifts I don't believe have stopped.

 

[Malachi]

Do all those people believe, do they have the faith to be healed? Is it always God will that someone be healed in that way?

Even Christ healed those who did not necessarily turn to Him in faith. The healing at the pool of Bethesda is a good example. But you are losing focus, because we are talking about the supernatural "gifts of healing" as operational in the apostolic churches, to which there is no "faith" condition attached for the recipient, nor "God's will" condition. See 1 Cor 12-14 and also the healing of the lame man by Peter and John. This man asked for alms and received healing. There was no exercise of faith, but an exercise of the spiritual gifts of healing.

You (as healer today) either have the gift and exercise it, or you don't. So if someone wants to come along and say "the gifts of healing" are operational today, they should be operational in every church and every hospital. Otherwise it is just wishful thinking and extremely harmful to people hoping for healing.

I agree with you about the persecution.
The scripture says a "messenger" from satan. I don't think there is anywhere in the Bible were an ailment is called a messenger, only men and angels.

You are also forgetting "flesh" -- thorn in the body (Gk sarki). Paul was a very spiritual man -- filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17) and gifted with multiple spiritual gifts (2 Cor 12:11,12) -- and his "flesh" (sinful nature) is NEVER in evidence as we go through Acts and the epistles. Therefore the majority have concluded that this was a physical disability. But people can choose whatever they wish to believe (whether true or false).

 

[Malachi]

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
These are the gifts I don't believe have stopped.

Prophecy is direct revelations from God as given to the apostles and the prophets (even unworthy prophets such as Balaam, who could not help himself).

As long as the New Testament was incomplete, prophecy, tongues, and [supernatural] knowledge were gifts within the churches. But Paul told us that when that which is COMPLETE (Gk teleios) is come then that which is in part shall be done away (1 Cor 13:8-10). Therefore these three gifts ceased when the NT was completed aboout 90 AD. You will not read of the ante-Nicene Fathers calling themselves "apostles" and "prophets".

Pentecostals/ Charismatics apply v 10 to the Lord Jesus Christ (because the KJV says "perfect" for "complete") with no regard to the context or the reason why three spiritual gifts would "cease". Otherwise they could not justify modern "tongues".

 

[Deborah13]

Even Christ healed those who did not necessarily turn to Him in faith. The healing at the pool of Bethesda is a good example. But you are losing focus, because we are talking about the supernatural "gifts of healing" as operational in the apostolic churches, to which there is no "faith" condition attached for the recipient, nor "God's will" condition. See 1 Cor 12-14 and also the healing of the lame man by Peter and John. This man asked for alms and received healing. There was no exercise of faith, but an exercise of the spiritual gifts of healing.

You (as healer today) either have the gift and exercise it, or you don't. So if someone wants to come along and say "the gifts of healing" are operational today, they should be operational in every church and every hospital. Otherwise it is just wishful thinking and extremely harmful to people hoping for healing.


You are also forgetting "flesh" -- thorn in the body (Gk sarki). Paul was a very spiritual man -- filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17) and gifted with multiple spiritual gifts (2 Cor 12:11,12) -- and his "flesh" (sinful nature) is NEVER in evidence as we go through Acts and the epistles. Therefore the majority have concluded that this was a physical disability. But people can choose whatever they wish to believe (whether true or false).

I see both types of healing were at use in the 1st century church. Calling the elders AND people other than the apostles being given the 'gift' of healing, etc.
I believe that both are still in operation. I don't see any scripture that says that the 'gift' was ever taken away. That is why I keep asking you for scripture that says such a thing to you.

So you don't believe that Paul's flesh body suffered from persecution? If I remember correctly when Paul talked about how he knew that they would give him their eyes he had just been badly beaten by those who persecuted him. But I would have to look that up again as to where he was and where he had just been.
Personally, in reading the history of the church very early on, the persecution of Christian Jews did much damage to the faith in how God works. They were the ones who had a history of seeing the miracles of God. It is my opinion that after that the church got dumbed down. They either got caught up in the church of Rome's corrupt practices of making them reliant on that organization or they moved into small groups who were under persecution and had to hide they things that they did. The Huguenots were such a group. They fled from France to Switzerland. They did operate in the "gifts". They were pretty much wiped out by the church at Rome. These are some of the things that I have read.

 

[Deborah13]

Prophecy is direct revelations from God as given to the apostles and the prophets (even unworthy prophets such as Balaam, who could not help himself).

As long as the New Testament was incomplete, prophecy, tongues, and [supernatural] knowledge were gifts within the churches. But Paul told us that when that which is COMPLETE (Gk teleios) is come then that which is in part shall be done away (1 Cor 13:8-10). Therefore these three gifts ceased when the NT was completed aboout 90 AD. You will not read of the ante-Nicene Fathers calling themselves "apostles" and "prophets".

Pentecostals/ Charismatics apply v 10 to the Lord Jesus Christ (because the KJV says "perfect" for "complete") with no regard to the context or the reason why three spiritual gifts would "cease". Otherwise they could not justify modern "tongues".

Ahh....now you have answered the question asked. Thank you.
Yeah, we will not agree on the interpretation of these verses.
God Bless

 

[Malachi]

So you don't believe that Paul's flesh body suffered from persecution?

Persecution was a "given". Therefore it is irrelevant. Paul knew he would be persecuted, and he revelled in his persecutions. But as regards his "thorn in the flesh" he asked the Lord to remove it THREE TIMES, but the Lord refused. Persection was promised at the time Saul was converted to Paul, and Christ told Ananias (Acts 9:16) "For I will shew him HOW GREAT THINGS HE MUST SUFFER for my name's sake". How come we forget all these details and arrive at the wrong conclusions?

 

[gr8grace3]

Ahh....now you have answered the question asked. Thank you.
Yeah, we will not agree on the interpretation of these verses.
God Bless

Deb,

If the "perfect" is referring to Christ and not the completed canon. What do you make of the neuter gender being used and not the masculine of the word "teleion?"

1 Cor 13:10~~New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

 

[Deborah13]

Deb,

If the "perfect" is referring to Christ and not the completed canon. What do you make of the neuter gender being used and not the masculine of the word "teleion?"

1 Cor 13:10~~New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

I don't know Greek well enough to answer that question. But I will investigate and see if I can.

 

[Deborah13]

Deb,

If the "perfect" is referring to Christ and not the completed canon. What do you make of the neuter gender being used and not the masculine of the word "teleion?"

1 Cor 13:10~~New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Oh that took me by surprise simply because I had not considered the grammar.
However, when I say the perfect, is Christ, I don't mean Him specifically. It' more of the relationship between His coming and what that brings. Perfect knowledge, as in the idea of face to face, knowledge. Here again not face to face with Him but the knowledge of Him.

How many times do we say, God's ways are not our ways? We don't understand because we don't have perfect knowledge and the Bible does not give us that knowledge, or revelation of everything that has to do with God. "We know in part" even having the completed canon.
Our knowledge is immature knowledge. That is how I understand the word 'perfect' as being mature.
In context, I believe that is how Paul is using the word because of the verses just before that "when I was a child, but now". So it is in the sense of an outcome of something else.
Which I think is conducive to the neuter form of the word. My example of this would be...
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
The perfect work is the outcome of faith and patience. In the sense of maturity.
So whenever Jesus comes and things are then no longer temporal but eternal, we will, coming face to face (not the literal face) but the idea of eternity with Christ, then we will know as we are known.
No longer know in part as through a glass darkly.