Conversational Worthy Moral Argument

[steven88]

This is a great breakdown of "The Moral Argument" in which an otherwise scholarly argument in broken down into a layman's version. He also has covered all of the most common objections to the argument and shown how to respond swiftly and effectively.

I was wondering what others take might be on this style of street apologetics? I want to start implementing some of it out on the street but first want to see if all of the bases are already covered by bouncing it off folks in here.

 

[Mike]

Welcome to CFnet!

Let's see what you have so far.

 

[steven88]

Little please...Anybody?

 

[reba]

Way over my head..... Very basic for me Christ died in my place. His Word makes wise the simple. Dont need all that fancy double talk


Way over my head....

Welcome to the boards! Christmas is just around the corner so the forums are a touch quiet.... Some one will chime in to your thoughts soon.....

 

[Stormcrow]

I checked the link. The writing style took something relatively simple and made it hard to understand. Here's what I think the writer of that blog was trying to communicate:

"If God is good, why does He allow evil?" (That's the basis of the moral argument in a nutshell.)

The problem with this argument against God's existence (because that's where this argument ultimately leads) is that if God doesn't exist, how could you define "evil?"

Where do people get their sense of right and wrong if there weren't some objective standard for knowing the difference between them that exists beyond our completely subjective experience as human beings?

Put another way: we are completely subjective creatures living in a completely subjective world. How is it, then, that we can know morality in such objective (black and white) terms when everything else in our lives consists of varying shades of gray?

How did completely subjective creatures arrive at a completely objective moral code all by ourselves?

The answer is: we couldn't.

Where objective moral "law" exists, there has to be an objective moral "lawgiver." As Christians (and Jews), we believe that moral lawgiver is God.

You can find this apologetic for God's existence in the works of authors ranging from the apostle Paul (Romans 1) to G.K. Chesterton, Francis Schaefer, C.S. Lewis, and Josh McDowell, to name a few.

C.S. Lewis takes the argument for God's existence one step further. Where did our idea of a "better place after death" come from if we are nothing more than the product of our environment? He then asks, "Does a fish know it's wet?"

If fish don't ask, "is there a better place", why would we if we are nothing more than animals suited only to and for life in this world?

Where did we get our idea of "heaven" if there were no revelation of such a place from outside this world in which we live?

Atheists typically don't find these arguments for God's existence compelling. I do.

 

[Stormcrow]

Reba...

It all boils down to this: if you're ever asked "If God is good (if God exists), why does He allow evil?" the response the writer of this blog might tell you to give is this: "How would you know what evil is if He didn't? From where do you get your sense of good and evil?"

If they say, "My parents", the obvious answer to that is, "Where did they get it?"

This keeps going until you get all the way back to God, the ultimate source of everything we instinctively know about good and evil, right and wrong, justice and injustice, truth and falsehood, etc., etc., etc.

 

[LightningStrikeSurvivor]

From where do you get your sense of good and evil?"

If they say, "My parents", the obvious answer to that is, "Where did they get it?"

This keeps going until you get all the way back to God, the ultimate source of everything we instinctively know about good and evil, right and wrong, justice and injustice, truth and falsehood, etc., etc., etc.

How do I know what the Pythagorean Theorem is? My parents taught me how to count and school-teachers taught me about Pythagoras.

Who taught them? Their parents and their teachers.

And this keeps going until you get all the way back to Pythagoras who was a little smarter than everyone else and worked it out for himself.

It's the same thing with morality, justice, good and evil, etc.

If it was "instinctive" knowledge, direct from god, then babies (who are innocent as youngsters) would never do any wrong. But they do behave wrongly and are corrected and taught by their parents and eventually understand.

 

[smaller]

Little please...Anybody?

About the only thing the moral argument could prove is that mankind is far from it.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

If it was "instinctive" knowledge, direct from god, then babies (who are innocent as youngsters) would never do any wrong. But they do behave wrongly and are corrected and taught by their parents and eventually understand.

Read Romans 1.

 

[reba]

Hi Reba,

It's a little off-topic but do you mind if I ask a question about that comment? It's something I've never understood...

People say Jesus died for us but did he? The way I understand it, he was given a body for 33 years or so and the body died. He went to hell and rubbed the devil's nose in it then to heaven for a while and after three days, he re-inhabited the body (bringing it back to life) and walked the earth again for a short time before going back to heaven for good.

When they say god gave his only begotten son, what does this really mean? He sent Jesus to earth for a while and everyone knew it would end with him being crucified and then Jesus went back to heaven. Yes, crucifixion would involve physical pain, of course, but other than that I do not understand the sacrifice by god. Jesus knew he'd go to heaven when he died. Who or what really died???

I believe/accept by faith. The way i see the world you also believe/accept by faith. We just have different view points.

 

[reba]

Reba...

It all boils down to this: if you're ever asked "If God is good (if God exists), why does He allow evil?" the response the writer of this blog might tell you to give is this: "How would you know what evil is if He didn't? From where do you get your sense of good and evil?"

If they say, "My parents", the obvious answer to that is, "Where did they get it?"

This keeps going until you get all the way back to God, the ultimate source of everything we instinctively know about good and evil, right and wrong, justice and injustice, truth and falsehood, etc., etc., etc.

The same principal as blaming ones mother for all their faults... Nice to have faith in God!

 

[Nathan Alterton]

How do I know what the Pythagorean Theorem is? My parents taught me how to count and school-teachers taught me about Pythagoras.

Who taught them? Their parents and their teachers.

And this keeps going until you get all the way back to Pythagoras who was a little smarter than everyone else and worked it out for himself.

It's the same thing with morality, justice, good and evil, etc.

If it was "instinctive" knowledge, direct from god, then babies (who are innocent as youngsters) would never do any wrong. But they do behave wrongly and are corrected and taught by their parents and eventually understand.

Ummm...You do realize, don't you, that you just reinforced Stormcrow's point?

The pythagorian theorem is an OBJECTIVE mathematical law. It's not subjective, Pythagoras didn't make it up, although it bears his name. Mathematical rules and laws, like the Pythagorian Theorem are discovered, not created. Math, like morality, objectively yet immaterially exists whether someone discovers it or not.

 

[Nathan Alterton]

steven88, I do think the Moral Argument is a wonderfully powerful apollegetic tool. Just put in the time to study it before you use it, while the basic concept is not that hard, there are some issues with it around it's edges that can be difficult to know how to handle without training. Check out Greg Koukl's great book on the subject, "Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air."

LightningStrikesSuvivor, I would love to discuss this topic with you.

Do you believe that rape is wrong?

 

[Free]

steven88, I do think the Moral Argument is a wonderfully powerful apollegetic tool. Just put in the time to study it before you use it, while the basic concept is not that hard, there are some issues with it around it's edges that can be difficult to know how to handle without training. Check out Greg Koukl's great book on the subject, "Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air."

That is a good introductory book and will go a long way in helping understand the Moral Argument. And I agree that this is not something to just quickly read about and then go and try and use it.